Ewan Scott wrote:

In a CCK, creek boat, playboat etc, one would normally lift the right knee,
buttock, whatever and edge to turn left with a sweep or rudder stroke. Or to
present the bottom of the boat to the current when ferry gliding river left
to right - facing upstream. (but don't let that confuse you at this stage).

You still do this in a sea kayak. Don't forget that "upstream" still
has a lot of relevant meaning if you're in a tidal stream or surf

Also if you want to do a reasonably sharp stop then an inside leaned
turn will kill the speed very effectively

However, in a Sea kayak the edge is the other way around for some reason
that would best be explained by a sea kayaker.

It's a very different turn. Edging a sea kayak to the outside is for a
carved turn with the shape of the hull making at least part of the
steering effect, but it's a gradual thing where forward motion is part
of the game. I usually use this for slight heading changes or to adjust
degree of weathercocking. Another time an outside lean is useful is if
you suddenly need to go back but are at a good speed with a full load of
gear: it can be quicker to maintain speed and do a long turn than to
kill the speed, turn around, and accelerate again.

So, if in a creek boat, play boat CCk on flat water or a river, edge (lift a
knee) on the opposite side from your turn. In a sea kayak on the same
side....

Lean things to the outside breaking out into a tidal stream and you'll
get an excellent chance to practise your rolling... It isn't a matter
of a different way in a sea kayak, full stop, but the outside lean is an
extra option to turn the boat in a different way. The inside lean turn
is still very much an option and breaking in and out of eddies is the
one to use, just like in a river boat.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

muzz wrote:
Ok, thanks for all the replies. I learned edging on the river in a WW boat
and it was always 'lift right cheek turn left'. I should get out in my
touring boat tomorrow and I'll edge the other way. No wonder it was taking
so long to turn.

There is no sea kayak that will turn on a sixpence. Expect to take time
to get a sea boat all the way around, but if you can edge it it will
take a bit less time than not edging.

You can still use an inside lean turn, and if you want to change the
angle of heading sharply then it's probably more effective. An outside
lean is a carved turn rather than a skidded one, so if you've got the
space for it it takes less power away.

For more effective turns also try an extended grip on the paddle, moving
away from the centre for your hands to give an extended reach to your
sweeps. Some people moan about cranked paddles being no good for this,
but nobody seems to have told mine it can't be used that way...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Steve wrote:
[...]
I think it's useful to use the words "lean" and "edge/heel"
(kayaks edge, open boats heel) separately.

Heeling is used for all kind of boats,
edging is mostly used for kayaks and closed canoes,
and leaning is mostly for open canoes, also because
the action of leaning is more a kneeling thing, I suppose,
but it also depends on the language one uses:

american english(?): boat lean - body lean
american english: J-lean - bell-buoy lean
english: edging - leaning

See this picture too:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~dbarends/lln.gif

Personally I prefer to use the word 'leaning', because it is easier
to understand what is meant by leaning (to the) right or left,
where edging (to the) left or right gives more room for misinterpretations...
as I have noticed.
Also, in the Netherlands at least, edging right is leaning left, and vice versa,
and that makes it even less desirable to use those words together indeed
to avoid confusion!
Luckily the boats and the water don't care about it at all,
and only know a right or wrong way to do it ;-)

Other interesting article to read about leaning:
http://www.paddlermagazine.com/issues/1999_2/Skheel.htm

Dirk Barends

Dirk Barends wrote:
Steve wrote:
[...]
I think it's useful to use the words "lean" and "edge/heel"
(kayaks edge, open boats heel) separately.

Personally I prefer to use the word 'leaning', because it is easier
to understand what is meant by leaning (to the) right or left,
where edging (to the) left or right gives more room for misinterpretations...
as I have noticed.

I make the distinction precisely because i want to be able to use the
terms differently. So that I can say to a beginner, for example, "Don't
lean, edge the boat" Unless I'm teaching a low brace turn, which is
leaned, by my definition.

Also, in the Netherlands at least, edging right is leaning left, and vice versa,
and that makes it even less desirable to use those words together indeed
to avoid confusion!

So, you always say "lean" (or "leun"), but then add "boat" or "body" to
the front of it to make your meaning clear. That should work I like my
way better, but I wouldn't want to talk you out of yours. The important
thing is consistency. If "lean" can mean two things, saying "Lean!" is
ambiguous. "Lean the boat!" isn't.

Other interesting article to read about leaning:
http://www.paddlermagazine.com/issues/1999_2/Skheel.htm

Note that Mark uses the terms "boat lean" or "J-lean" a couple of times
initially, then abandons the word and uses "heel" for the rest of the
article. That's consistent with the way he teaches in person, IIRC.

Steve

Steve wrote:
[...]
So, you always say "lean" (or "leun"), but then add "boat" or "body" to
the front of it to make your meaning clear.

Yes, but since I prefer a 'boat lean" (edging) over a "body lean"
in most situations,
when I am certain that it is clear that I mean a "boat lean",
I just say 'lean' (right or left).
Although I am well aware that for some kind of boats (very/too stable ones)
and situations, to get enough "boat lean", more or less "body lean" is
unavoidable though. In that case, the ability to brace (recovery in the UK?)
is certainly required, in my view and experience...

Dirk Barends

Pople are getting a bit too bitchy with each other for my liking, and a
bit too technical for my liking.

If you're in a long boat edge away fom the direction you want to turn;
if you're in a short boat edge toward the direction you want to turn.

Or, to avoid confusing the dutch: if you're in a marathon boat and want
to turn left, put all your weight on your right bum cheek.

Dom Murphy wrote:
Pople are getting a bit too bitchy with each other for my liking, and a
bit too technical for my liking.

Bitchy? Moi? I thought this was a very respectful exchange of views.
Technical? Well, only if you don't care why it works.

If you're in a long boat edge away fom the direction you want to turn;
if you're in a short boat edge toward the direction you want to turn.

That pretty much sums it up for me.

Or, to avoid confusing the dutch: if you're in a marathon boat and want
to turn left, put all your weight on your right bum cheek.

Yet another way to put it. Thanks.

Steve

Dom Murphy wrote:
Pople are getting a bit too bitchy with each other for my liking, and a
bit too technical for my liking.

If you're in a long boat edge away fom the direction you want to turn;

That's a bit too, errr, /wrong/ for my liking. While it's true for
a carved turn, if I try and break into a strong tidal flow in a 5m
sea kayak using that advice then I'll get very, very wet and very,
very fast.

Long boats can be edged either way, according to the sort of turn
you make and the conditions you do it in.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

At least the last review of the Star syllabus changed "edging the boat to
turn" to "edging the boat to assist turning", which emphasises the other
effect - in most boats, edging them shortens the waterline length, and
increases the effective rocker, making them easier to turn.

Alan,

Are you talking about the previous review, or the one being undertaken
currently?

I've heard that there are copies of the new syllabus available but
can't find a copy anywhere.

My son, also an L2, has made several attempts to find out from the BCU
but has never received any response on the subject.

Ewan Scott

In message . com
wrote:



At least the last review of the Star syllabus changed "edging the boat to
turn" to "edging the boat to assist turning", which emphasises the other
effect - in most boats, edging them shortens the waterline length, and
increases the effective rocker, making them easier to turn.

Alan,

Are you talking about the previous review, or the one being undertaken
currently?

The last one, 5 plus years ago.


I've heard that there are copies of the new syllabus available but
can't find a copy anywhere.

My son, also an L2, has made several attempts to find out from the BCU
but has never received any response on the subject.

I haven't heard of anything being made available yet.

Alan

--
Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire

http://www.nckc.org.uk/