Now I'm confused. Doing my two star training we did a lot of edging, both on
calm water and for getting in and out of different flow rates, you lean left
you turn left - no problem.
I just watched a Kayaking DVD "Performance Sea Kayaking" in which they
covered edging to turn the boat. They all turned the OPPOSITE way to whci
they edged the boat !
Have I missed something ?

--
Muzz
http://highlandmist.blogspot.com
http://www.geocities.com/tripdogmonkey/index.html

Hi Muzz.
You raise the left side of the boat to turn left and the right to turn
right. It is counter intuitive. but once you get it it is simple enough
but still seams unstable.
The theory I have been told you increase the water line on the outside
of the turn by puting more of that side in the water, The longet water
line moves faster in the water than the short water line so it tends to
turn . By doing this you decrease the water line on the inside of the
turn.
Actually that lean lends itself well to sweep strokes as well.

The best way to check this out is go fast on flat water and lean as
hard as you can left and right with the rudder up. the turn should be
very tangeable. It it does not wotrk this way for you or you end up in
a swim mode try to get some keener to give it a shot.
I had Performance Kayaking, it is a good film.
The new This Is the Sea 2 is a great video if you can get it. It is in
our library. Our club places really cool videos in the public library
to promote kayaking.
Take care, glad you are doing well and paddling this far into the
season We have ice starting to cover lakes and ponds now. The sea is
still open and we still get out a bit.

Alex

In message . com
wrote:

Hi Muzz.
You raise the left side of the boat to turn left and the right to turn
right. It is counter intuitive. but once you get it it is simple enough
but still seams unstable.
The theory I have been told you increase the water line on the outside
of the turn by puting more of that side in the water, The longet water
line moves faster in the water than the short water line so it tends to
turn . By doing this you decrease the water line on the inside of the
turn.
Actually that lean lends itself well to sweep strokes as well.

The best way to check this out is go fast on flat water and lean as
hard as you can left and right with the rudder up. the turn should be
very tangeable. It it does not wotrk this way for you or you end up in
a swim mode try to get some keener to give it a shot.
I had Performance Kayaking, it is a good film.
The new This Is the Sea 2 is a great video if you can get it. It is in
our library. Our club places really cool videos in the public library
to promote kayaking.
Take care, glad you are doing well and paddling this far into the
season We have ice starting to cover lakes and ponds now. The sea is
still open and we still get out a bit.

Alex


The reason you lean when breaking into a flow is to maintain balance, not to
help the hull turn. The water will turn the hull, and your body needs to
move with the lateral acceleration. This is exactly like leaning a bicycle
when turning.

--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

Edging for breaking in/out on moving water is serving a different purpopse
from edging a sea-boat in order to make it turn.

Sea boat - paddle in a straight line - lift your left knee, the boat edges
on its right side and will turn to the left.

"muzz" wrote in message
...
Now I'm confused. Doing my two star training we did a lot of edging, both
on calm water and for getting in and out of different flow rates, you lean
left you turn left - no problem.
I just watched a Kayaking DVD "Performance Sea Kayaking" in which they
covered edging to turn the boat. They all turned the OPPOSITE way to whci
they edged the boat !
Have I missed something ?

--
Muzz
http://highlandmist.blogspot.com
http://www.geocities.com/tripdogmonkey/index.html

Oh Muzz.
There was an eddy issue that Allan just brought up that I never thought
of. If you are carving into an eddy you present the bottom of the boat
to the new current.
Allan is likely more into White water than sea but he is right in as
far as enterind an eddy line on a river or a currant line on the sea
you would lean in a way to present the bottom of your boat to the
currant and not get tripped up.
On the ocean though with no complications, lift the side you want to
turn; left leg up to go left and right to go right.

It is realy simple after a while.
I am not the brightest, I did a lot of swimming before I figured all
this out.
We have courses available here now, so in 2005 folks get to learn
without getting wetas much as i did.
CIOA
Alex

Now I'm confused. Doing my two star training we did a lot of edging, both on
calm water and for getting in and out of different flow rates, you lean left
you turn left - no problem.
I just watched a Kayaking DVD "Performance Sea Kayaking" in which they
covered edging to turn the boat. They all turned the OPPOSITE way to whci
they edged the boat!
Have I missed something?

Yes,
but the question is, do you want to have all the information there is
about leaning and edging/heeling when doing a two star training? Most
instructors don't want to make it more complicated than necessary,
I guess?

With canoeing one normally speaks about 'leaning',
and with kayaking one normally says 'edging' when you 'heel' a boat.
When I say 'leaning' I mean the action one has to do to make the boat
'heel', because you can also heel a canoe without leaning, for instance by
kneeling with two knees in the bilge. Furthermore you can make a difference
between a boat lean (a.k.a. J-lean) and a body lean (a.k.a. bell buoy
lean).

Which effect you get when you heel your boat, depends on the design of that
boat, which way/side you heel the boat and how much you lean the boat
and the way the boat is moving through the water.

Also you can heel the boat for different purposes.

* To give the boat a tendency to turn in a certain direction.
With forward speed most designs 'want' to go to the right with a heel to
the left and vice versa.
Some designs will do this the opposite way though! Can also be different on
the amount of heel.
Experimenting with your own boat is the only sure way to find that out.

* To make the boat more maneuverable.
The more you heel the boat, the more shape in the water of the boat changes
to a more maneuverable shape. Especially for straighter keeled boats this is
recommended by many people, but personally, I consider this only useful as a
fla****er technique. In waves and current I prefer a design that doesn't need
to be heeled to make a turn. I care more about stability then...

* For stability purposes.
For instance when encountering great differences in current,
one has to heel the boat downstream.
(Preferably not more than is really necessary.)
But also with hard side winds I heel a bit into the wind.

* To keep an open canoe 'possibly' dryer by heeling _temporarily_ away
from a wave. (Only recommended if you know when and how to do it!)

Although the text is in the dutch language, the pictures on:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~dbarends/hlln.html
may make some things I wrote here more clear?

Dirk Barends

Dirk Barends wrote:

With canoeing one normally speaks about 'leaning',
and with kayaking one normally says 'edging' when you 'heel' a boat.
When I say 'leaning' I mean the action one has to do to make the boat
'heel', because you can also heel a canoe without leaning, for instance by
kneeling with two knees in the bilge. Furthermore you can make a difference
between a boat lean (a.k.a. J-lean) and a body lean (a.k.a. bell buoy
lean).

If I might offer a little gloss on the above. I think it's useful to
use the words "lean" and "edge/heel" (kayaks edge, open boats heel)
separately. Edging refers to the boat being other than flat on the
water. It does not refer to the position of the body and head, which
remain vertical and balanced. Leaning indicates that the head and body
are not vertical and not above the boat. Obviously, the boat will be
edged when you do this, unless you're in a very stable boat. You can
sustain an edge indefinitely, a lean results in a flip unless something
else--brace, bow, dock, whale--intervenes.

Another way to think about it: you edge your boat by diferentially
pulling/pushing with your knees; you lean by moving your torso
sideways.

Most of the time, edging is preferable. Low and high brace kayak turns
are the main places I would see a lean being used. So edge in to the
eddy, edge as a beam wave passes under you.

To the OP: in WW boats you generally edge into the turn, bicycle-wise,
although modern boats turn so easily it really doesn't matter, you can
stay flat except when crossing current differentials. In a sea kayak,
you edge to the outside of a sweep turn, so that (1) you turn quicker,
with less resistance and (2) you are supported by your sweeping paddle
blade.

Steve

Steve wrote:
[...]
I think it's useful to use the words "lean" and "edge/heel"
(kayaks edge, open boats heel) separately.

Heeling is used for all kind of boats,
edging is mostly used for kayaks and closed canoes,
and leaning is mostly for open canoes, also because
the action of leaning is more a kneeling thing, I suppose,
but it also depends on the language one uses:

american english(?): boat lean - body lean
american english: J-lean - bell-buoy lean
english: edging - leaning

See this picture too:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~dbarends/lln.gif

Personally I prefer to use the word 'leaning', because it is easier
to understand what is meant by leaning (to the) right or left,
where edging (to the) left or right gives more room for misinterpretations...
as I have noticed.
Also, in the Netherlands at least, edging right is leaning left, and vice versa,
and that makes it even less desirable to use those words together indeed
to avoid confusion!
Luckily the boats and the water don't care about it at all,
and only know a right or wrong way to do it ;-)

Other interesting article to read about leaning:
http://www.paddlermagazine.com/issues/1999_2/Skheel.htm

Dirk Barends

Dirk Barends wrote:
Steve wrote:
[...]
I think it's useful to use the words "lean" and "edge/heel"
(kayaks edge, open boats heel) separately.

Personally I prefer to use the word 'leaning', because it is easier
to understand what is meant by leaning (to the) right or left,
where edging (to the) left or right gives more room for misinterpretations...
as I have noticed.

I make the distinction precisely because i want to be able to use the
terms differently. So that I can say to a beginner, for example, "Don't
lean, edge the boat" Unless I'm teaching a low brace turn, which is
leaned, by my definition.

Also, in the Netherlands at least, edging right is leaning left, and vice versa,
and that makes it even less desirable to use those words together indeed
to avoid confusion!

So, you always say "lean" (or "leun"), but then add "boat" or "body" to
the front of it to make your meaning clear. That should work I like my
way better, but I wouldn't want to talk you out of yours. The important
thing is consistency. If "lean" can mean two things, saying "Lean!" is
ambiguous. "Lean the boat!" isn't.

Other interesting article to read about leaning:
http://www.paddlermagazine.com/issues/1999_2/Skheel.htm

Note that Mark uses the terms "boat lean" or "J-lean" a couple of times
initially, then abandons the word and uses "heel" for the rest of the
article. That's consistent with the way he teaches in person, IIRC.

Steve

Steve wrote:
[...]
So, you always say "lean" (or "leun"), but then add "boat" or "body" to
the front of it to make your meaning clear.

Yes, but since I prefer a 'boat lean" (edging) over a "body lean"
in most situations,
when I am certain that it is clear that I mean a "boat lean",
I just say 'lean' (right or left).
Although I am well aware that for some kind of boats (very/too stable ones)
and situations, to get enough "boat lean", more or less "body lean" is
unavoidable though. In that case, the ability to brace (recovery in the UK?)
is certainly required, in my view and experience...

Dirk Barends