On Dec 21, 3:23�am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:57:47 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Dec 20, 7:09?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar.

The only connection between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry is
with the Order of DeMolay which is a youth organization named after
Jacques DeMolay. It is a mentoring organization that the development
of civic awareness, leadership skills and personal responsibility.

There is a charitable organization outside the structure of
Freemasonry that is named The United Religious, Military and Masonic
Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes
and Malta which is sometimes called the Masonic Knights Templar, but
has no direct connection to Freemasonry other than the fact that the
members are all Master Masons.

There are only three degrees - Entered Apprentice. Fellow Craft and
Master Mason. ?Other "degrees" are declared, or to put it another way,
awarded depending on the Master Mason's involvement in the charitable
organization like the various Shrines or the Masonic Knights.

None of the Free Mason rituals are based on the rituals or theology of
the Knights Templar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wiki:

Despite Freemasonry's general disclaimer that no one Masonic
organization claims a direct heritage to the medieval Knights Templar,
certain degrees and orders are obviously patterned after the medieval
Order. These are best described as "commemorative orders" or degrees.
Nevertheless, in spite of the fraternity's official disclaimers, some
Masons, non-Masons and even anti-Masons insist that certain Masonic
rites or degrees originally had direct Templar influence.

And what exactly did I say? �There are only three degrees in
Freemasonry - count 'em, three. �Anything beyond Master Mason is
strictly commerative or social awards that have nothing to do with
Masonic degrees.

The base ritual in all lodges is exactly the same. �The officers,
symbols, words, signs and signals, opening and closing ritual, pieces
of note are exactly the same. �The altar is exactly the same. What is
placed on the altar is exactly the same in exaclty the same place
facing in the same direction. �There are minor differences sometimes
by Grand Lodge, regional or even local, but the base ritual and ranks
of officers of the Lodge are set in stone - so to speak.

The differences involve things like meeting times or commerative
formatting but even there, it follows the same order. �An example of a
"difference" between lodges would be the local lodge here in Woodstock
which is called a Moon Lodge - lodge is held on the night of a full
moon unless it's a regular Sunday in which case it is held Saturday
the night before the full moon or if Sunday is a religious holiday
(like Easter Sunday or Christmas) the day after. (Interesting note:
You can count the number of moon lodges in the US on one hand and most
of them are out west - the Woodstock lodge is the only one in New
England). �The lodge up in Southbridge is a Blue Lodge - meaning it is
one of the original chartered lodges by the Grand Lodge of
Massachuetts and has no numeric designation.

The whole base ritual of all Masonic ritual is the "story" of Hiriam
Abif and the building of the Temple of Solomon. �Most of it is made up
history, but it sounds good. There are certainly magical and mystical
elements to it, but what fraternity doesn't have similar features.

It has nothing to do with Knights Templar other than what I stated and
those Orders do not have anything in common with base level
Freemasonry.



American Masonic youth organizations such as the Order of DeMolay for
young men are named after the last Grand Master Templar Jacques de
Molay who was executed in the final suppression of the Templar order
in the early 1300s.

~~ snip ~~

Many other old and new organizations are called "Knights Templar".
However, organizations like the Order of the Solar Temple, Militi
Templi Scotia,or the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of
Jerusalem are in no way related to Masonic Knights Templar, and share
no relationship in either history, hierarchy, nor ritual.

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. �They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.

Like much pertaining to various systems of belief and ritual, few
things are reducible to absolutes and discussion continues, and
continues, and continues........ :-)

"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

I would suggest you actualy talk to a Mason who has spent some time in
lodges and as an officer. �I might also suggest that you stop reading
DaVinci Code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here's a Mason who disagrees with you:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html

Apparently there are differences of opinion within the order.
And of course, there are a variety of "rites" with varying numbers of
degrees operating under the common Masonic umbrella.

Is trying to identify the "true Freemason" as difficult as figuring
out who is a "real" American, Republican, Democrat, or Christian? :-)

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:16:44 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Dec 21, 3:23?am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:57:47 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Dec 20, 7:09?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar.

The only connection between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry is
with the Order of DeMolay which is a youth organization named after
Jacques DeMolay. It is a mentoring organization that the development
of civic awareness, leadership skills and personal responsibility.

There is a charitable organization outside the structure of
Freemasonry that is named The United Religious, Military and Masonic
Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes
and Malta which is sometimes called the Masonic Knights Templar, but
has no direct connection to Freemasonry other than the fact that the
members are all Master Masons.

There are only three degrees - Entered Apprentice. Fellow Craft and
Master Mason. ?Other "degrees" are declared, or to put it another way,
awarded depending on the Master Mason's involvement in the charitable
organization like the various Shrines or the Masonic Knights.

None of the Free Mason rituals are based on the rituals or theology of
the Knights Templar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wiki:

Despite Freemasonry's general disclaimer that no one Masonic
organization claims a direct heritage to the medieval Knights Templar,
certain degrees and orders are obviously patterned after the medieval
Order. These are best described as "commemorative orders" or degrees.
Nevertheless, in spite of the fraternity's official disclaimers, some
Masons, non-Masons and even anti-Masons insist that certain Masonic
rites or degrees originally had direct Templar influence.

And what exactly did I say? ?There are only three degrees in
Freemasonry - count 'em, three. ?Anything beyond Master Mason is
strictly commerative or social awards that have nothing to do with
Masonic degrees.

The base ritual in all lodges is exactly the same. ?The officers,
symbols, words, signs and signals, opening and closing ritual, pieces
of note are exactly the same. ?The altar is exactly the same. What is
placed on the altar is exactly the same in exaclty the same place
facing in the same direction. ?There are minor differences sometimes
by Grand Lodge, regional or even local, but the base ritual and ranks
of officers of the Lodge are set in stone - so to speak.

The differences involve things like meeting times or commerative
formatting but even there, it follows the same order. ?An example of a
"difference" between lodges would be the local lodge here in Woodstock
which is called a Moon Lodge - lodge is held on the night of a full
moon unless it's a regular Sunday in which case it is held Saturday
the night before the full moon or if Sunday is a religious holiday
(like Easter Sunday or Christmas) the day after. (Interesting note:
You can count the number of moon lodges in the US on one hand and most
of them are out west - the Woodstock lodge is the only one in New
England). ?The lodge up in Southbridge is a Blue Lodge - meaning it is
one of the original chartered lodges by the Grand Lodge of
Massachuetts and has no numeric designation.

The whole base ritual of all Masonic ritual is the "story" of Hiriam
Abif and the building of the Temple of Solomon. ?Most of it is made up
history, but it sounds good. There are certainly magical and mystical
elements to it, but what fraternity doesn't have similar features.

It has nothing to do with Knights Templar other than what I stated and
those Orders do not have anything in common with base level
Freemasonry.



American Masonic youth organizations such as the Order of DeMolay for
young men are named after the last Grand Master Templar Jacques de
Molay who was executed in the final suppression of the Templar order
in the early 1300s.

~~ snip ~~

Many other old and new organizations are called "Knights Templar".
However, organizations like the Order of the Solar Temple, Militi
Templi Scotia,or the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of
Jerusalem are in no way related to Masonic Knights Templar, and share
no relationship in either history, hierarchy, nor ritual.

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. ?They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.

Like much pertaining to various systems of belief and ritual, few
things are reducible to absolutes and discussion continues, and
continues, and continues........ :-)

"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

I would suggest you actualy talk to a Mason who has spent some time in
lodges and as an officer. ?I might also suggest that you stop reading
DaVinci Code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here's a Mason who disagrees with you:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html

Apparently there are differences of opinion within the order.
And of course, there are a variety of "rites" with varying numbers of
degrees operating under the common Masonic umbrella.

Is trying to identify the "true Freemason" as difficult as figuring
out who is a "real" American, Republican, Democrat, or Christian? :-)

Chuck, just go listen to the music (without what you may consider the
bothersome religious symbols).

http://tinyurl.com/35plpm
--
John H

On Dec 21, 10:23�am, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:16:44 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Dec 21, 3:23?am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:57:47 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 7:09?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all..

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol..
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar.

The only connection between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry is
with the Order of DeMolay which is a youth organization named after
Jacques DeMolay. It is a mentoring organization that the development
of civic awareness, leadership skills and personal responsibility.

There is a charitable organization outside the structure of
Freemasonry that is named The United Religious, Military and Masonic
Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes
and Malta which is sometimes called the Masonic Knights Templar, but
has no direct connection to Freemasonry other than the fact that the
members are all Master Masons.

There are only three degrees - Entered Apprentice. Fellow Craft and
Master Mason. ?Other "degrees" are declared, or to put it another way,
awarded depending on the Master Mason's involvement in the charitable
organization like the various Shrines or the Masonic Knights.

None of the Free Mason rituals are based on the rituals or theology of
the Knights Templar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wiki:

Despite Freemasonry's general disclaimer that no one Masonic
organization claims a direct heritage to the medieval Knights Templar,
certain degrees and orders are obviously patterned after the medieval
Order. These are best described as "commemorative orders" or degrees.
Nevertheless, in spite of the fraternity's official disclaimers, some
Masons, non-Masons and even anti-Masons insist that certain Masonic
rites or degrees originally had direct Templar influence.

And what exactly did I say? ?There are only three degrees in
Freemasonry - count 'em, three. ?Anything beyond Master Mason is
strictly commerative or social awards that have nothing to do with
Masonic degrees.

The base ritual in all lodges is exactly the same. ?The officers,
symbols, words, signs and signals, opening and closing ritual, pieces
of note are exactly the same. ?The altar is exactly the same. What is
placed on the altar is exactly the same in exaclty the same place
facing in the same direction. ?There are minor differences sometimes
by Grand Lodge, regional or even local, but the base ritual and ranks
of officers of the Lodge are set in stone - so to speak.

The differences involve things like meeting times or commerative
formatting but even there, it follows the same order. ?An example of a
"difference" between lodges would be the local lodge here in Woodstock
which is called a Moon Lodge - lodge is held on the night of a full
moon unless it's a regular Sunday in which case it is held Saturday
the night before the full moon or if Sunday is a religious holiday
(like Easter Sunday or Christmas) the day after. (Interesting note:
You can count the number of moon lodges in the US on one hand and most
of them are out west - the Woodstock lodge is the only one in New
England). ?The lodge up in Southbridge is a Blue Lodge - meaning it is
one of the original chartered lodges by the Grand Lodge of
Massachuetts and has no numeric designation.

The whole base ritual of all Masonic ritual is the "story" of Hiriam
Abif and the building of the Temple of Solomon. ?Most of it is made up
history, but it sounds good. There are certainly magical and mystical
elements to it, but what fraternity doesn't have similar features.

It has nothing to do with Knights Templar other than what I stated and
those Orders do not have anything in common with base level
Freemasonry.

American Masonic youth organizations such as the Order of DeMolay for
young men are named after the last Grand Master Templar Jacques de
Molay who was executed in the final suppression of the Templar order
in the early 1300s.

~~ snip ~~

Many other old and new organizations are called "Knights Templar".
However, organizations like the Order of the Solar Temple, Militi
Templi Scotia,or the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of
Jerusalem are in no way related to Masonic Knights Templar, and share
no relationship in either history, hierarchy, nor ritual.

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. ?They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.

Like much pertaining to various systems of belief and ritual, few
things are reducible to absolutes and discussion continues, and
continues, and continues........ :-)

"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

I would suggest you actualy talk to a Mason who has spent some time in
lodges and as an officer. ?I might also suggest that you stop reading
DaVinci Code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here's a Mason who disagrees with you:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html

Apparently there are differences of opinion within the order.
And of course, there are a variety of "rites" with varying numbers of
degrees operating under the common Masonic umbrella.

Is trying to identify the "true Freemason" as difficult as figuring
out who is a "real" American, Republican, Democrat, or Christian? �:-)

Chuck, just go listen to the music (without what you may consider the
bothersome religious symbols).

http://tinyurl.com/35plpm
--
John H- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I stated no objection to the religious symbols, and I did listen to
it.

But since you bring up the topic, why is The Good Shepherd red-headed,
with Nordic or Celtic features? JUST KIDDING (!)-- (I really don't
expect you to defend the image).

Merry Christmas, John.

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:14:12 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Dec 21, 10:23?am, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:16:44 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Dec 21, 3:23?am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:57:47 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 7:09?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar.

The only connection between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry is
with the Order of DeMolay which is a youth organization named after
Jacques DeMolay. It is a mentoring organization that the development
of civic awareness, leadership skills and personal responsibility.

There is a charitable organization outside the structure of
Freemasonry that is named The United Religious, Military and Masonic
Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes
and Malta which is sometimes called the Masonic Knights Templar, but
has no direct connection to Freemasonry other than the fact that the
members are all Master Masons.

There are only three degrees - Entered Apprentice. Fellow Craft and
Master Mason. ?Other "degrees" are declared, or to put it another way,
awarded depending on the Master Mason's involvement in the charitable
organization like the various Shrines or the Masonic Knights.

None of the Free Mason rituals are based on the rituals or theology of
the Knights Templar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wiki:

Despite Freemasonry's general disclaimer that no one Masonic
organization claims a direct heritage to the medieval Knights Templar,
certain degrees and orders are obviously patterned after the medieval
Order. These are best described as "commemorative orders" or degrees.
Nevertheless, in spite of the fraternity's official disclaimers, some
Masons, non-Masons and even anti-Masons insist that certain Masonic
rites or degrees originally had direct Templar influence.

And what exactly did I say? ?There are only three degrees in
Freemasonry - count 'em, three. ?Anything beyond Master Mason is
strictly commerative or social awards that have nothing to do with
Masonic degrees.

The base ritual in all lodges is exactly the same. ?The officers,
symbols, words, signs and signals, opening and closing ritual, pieces
of note are exactly the same. ?The altar is exactly the same. What is
placed on the altar is exactly the same in exaclty the same place
facing in the same direction. ?There are minor differences sometimes
by Grand Lodge, regional or even local, but the base ritual and ranks
of officers of the Lodge are set in stone - so to speak.

The differences involve things like meeting times or commerative
formatting but even there, it follows the same order. ?An example of a
"difference" between lodges would be the local lodge here in Woodstock
which is called a Moon Lodge - lodge is held on the night of a full
moon unless it's a regular Sunday in which case it is held Saturday
the night before the full moon or if Sunday is a religious holiday
(like Easter Sunday or Christmas) the day after. (Interesting note:
You can count the number of moon lodges in the US on one hand and most
of them are out west - the Woodstock lodge is the only one in New
England). ?The lodge up in Southbridge is a Blue Lodge - meaning it is
one of the original chartered lodges by the Grand Lodge of
Massachuetts and has no numeric designation.

The whole base ritual of all Masonic ritual is the "story" of Hiriam
Abif and the building of the Temple of Solomon. ?Most of it is made up
history, but it sounds good. There are certainly magical and mystical
elements to it, but what fraternity doesn't have similar features.

It has nothing to do with Knights Templar other than what I stated and
those Orders do not have anything in common with base level
Freemasonry.

American Masonic youth organizations such as the Order of DeMolay for
young men are named after the last Grand Master Templar Jacques de
Molay who was executed in the final suppression of the Templar order
in the early 1300s.

~~ snip ~~

Many other old and new organizations are called "Knights Templar".
However, organizations like the Order of the Solar Temple, Militi
Templi Scotia,or the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of
Jerusalem are in no way related to Masonic Knights Templar, and share
no relationship in either history, hierarchy, nor ritual.

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. ?They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.

Like much pertaining to various systems of belief and ritual, few
things are reducible to absolutes and discussion continues, and
continues, and continues........ :-)

"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

I would suggest you actualy talk to a Mason who has spent some time in
lodges and as an officer. ?I might also suggest that you stop reading
DaVinci Code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here's a Mason who disagrees with you:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html

Apparently there are differences of opinion within the order.
And of course, there are a variety of "rites" with varying numbers of
degrees operating under the common Masonic umbrella.

Is trying to identify the "true Freemason" as difficult as figuring
out who is a "real" American, Republican, Democrat, or Christian? ?:-)

Chuck, just go listen to the music (without what you may consider the
bothersome religious symbols).

http://tinyurl.com/35plpm
--
John H- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I stated no objection to the religious symbols, and I did listen to
it.

But since you bring up the topic, why is The Good Shepherd red-headed,
with Nordic or Celtic features? JUST KIDDING (!)-- (I really don't
expect you to defend the image).

Merry Christmas, John.

Lighting.

Merry Christmas to you too! We start early tomorrow with the kids and
grandkids showing up for presents and dinner. Should be fun!
--
John H

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:16:44 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:


Here's a Mason who disagrees with you:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html

Apparently there are differences of opinion within the order.
And of course, there are a variety of "rites" with varying numbers of
degrees operating under the common Masonic umbrella.

Ah yes - Dr. Robert Lomas.

I won't get into the whole Lomas suppositions as they have been
thoroughly debunked by serious historians - they even did a Discovery
Channel Special on Lomas's "work". He's considered the Eric von
Daniken of Masonic conspiracy theorists - by other Masonic conspiracy
theorists.

He's also the one who claims that the Knights Templar treasure is
located beneath the chapel.

Or the lawn.

Or the West Tower based on some arcane methodology crossing Knights
Templar and Masonic Ritual, phases of the moon, the Aztec Columnar
Table and the price of tea in Tibet.

However, to get back to the Knights Templar being the progenitors of
Masonic Ritual.

I hate to burst your oh so not careful research on the subject, but
the whole Masonic Knights thing is an inside joke - has been for a
long time.

Think Masons and Knights.

Is trying to identify the "true Freemason" as difficult as figuring
out who is a "real" American, Republican, Democrat, or Christian? :-)

Not at all.

What it does prove is that folks who have little or no knowledge of
the subject will theorize, extemporize and a lot of other izes
combining and interpolating all kinds of obscure claptrap to prove
their point.

The simple truth is this - Free Masons are lodge based, governed by
the same sets of rules and have nothing in common with Knights Templar
or any other mysterious order of antiquity other than that invented
when the Fraternity was established. I can point you to Catholic
ritual which is also very similar to the establishment of an Entered
Apprentice - does that mean that Masons are descended from Benedictine
Monks?

Pseudo detective work with little or no meaning.

If you are really interested in feeding your obvious appetite for
deconstructing all things historical, here's a few to keep you busy -
I can imagine you will find all finds of interesting fodder.

Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulcher of Jerusalem.

The Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem,
of Rhodes and of Malta.

The Pontifical Equestrian Order of St. Gregory the Great.

The Most Honorable Military Order of the Bath.

On Dec 21, 6:46*pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

*He's considered the Eric von Daniken of Masonic conspiracy
theorists - by other Masonic conspiracy theorists.

Now, I like that....

On Dec 21, 4:46�pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:16:44 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
Here's a Mason who disagrees with you:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html

Apparently there are differences of opinion within the order.
And of course, there are a variety of "rites" with varying numbers of
degrees operating under the common Masonic umbrella.

Ah yes - Dr. Robert Lomas.

I won't get into the whole Lomas suppositions as they have been
thoroughly debunked by serious historians - they even did a Discovery
Channel Special on Lomas's "work". �He's considered the Eric von
Daniken of Masonic conspiracy theorists - by other Masonic conspiracy
theorists.

He's also the one who claims that the Knights Templar treasure is
located beneath the chapel.

Or the lawn.

Or the West Tower based on some arcane methodology crossing Knights
Templar and Masonic Ritual, phases of the moon, the Aztec Columnar
Table and the price of tea in Tibet.

However, to get back to the Knights Templar being the progenitors of
Masonic Ritual.

I hate to burst your oh so not careful research on the subject, but
the whole Masonic Knights thing is an inside joke - has been for a
long time.

Think Masons and Knights.

Is trying to identify the "true Freemason" as difficult as figuring
out who is a "real" American, Republican, Democrat, or Christian? �:-)

Not at all.

What it does prove is that folks who have little or no knowledge of
the subject will theorize, extemporize and a lot of other izes
combining and interpolating all kinds of obscure claptrap to prove
their point.

The simple truth is this - Free Masons are lodge based, governed by
the same sets of rules and have nothing in common with Knights Templar
or any other mysterious order of antiquity other than that invented
when the Fraternity was established. �I can point you to Catholic
ritual which is also very similar to the establishment of an Entered
Apprentice - does that mean that Masons are descended from Benedictine
Monks?

Pseudo detective work with little or no meaning.

If you are really interested in feeding your obvious appetite for
deconstructing all things historical, here's a few to keep you busy -
I can imagine you will find all finds of interesting fodder.

Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulcher of Jerusalem.

The Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem,
of Rhodes and of Malta.

The Pontifical Equestrian Order of St. Gregory the Great.

The Most Honorable Military Order of the Bath.


And yet another Van Daniken site?

http://www.knightstemplar.ca/join.htm


My original statement was that some Masons regard the Knights Templar
as their philosophical ancestors. In the course of our discussion, I
have cited several Masons making that exact claim.

Wave the rule book all you like. I don't claim to be well versed in
the details of Freemasonry- but nothing trotted out as official
Masonic doctrine changes the fact that I stated; some Masons do regard
the Knights Templay as philosophical ancestors. And as I noted very
early on, those Masons could be wrong.

This could be one of those interminable cite wars, but to what point?
I'm not addressing or challenging the official rules or position,
merely noting that some Masons feel a certain way. The rules don't
disprove that, nor do the apparently maverick masons (thousands of
them) disprove your knowledge of the rules of the order.

Is Freemasonry so draconian that no Mason can think or feel anything
that isn't authorized in the official doctrine? Some Masons consider
the Knights Templar philosophical ancestors, even if the official
rules do not.

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 00:15:31 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

Is Freemasonry so draconian that no Mason can think or feel anything
that isn't authorized in the official doctrine? Some Masons consider
the Knights Templar philosophical ancestors, even if the official
rules do not

Never mind Chuck.

Believe what you will.