Larry wrote:
Tim wrote in news:e96f7861-68ca-49dc-a8a0-
:

Larry, why try to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Here's a more simplified version on who Jesus is:

Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV)

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his
disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God.




If you want to find out the truth about any product.....do you REALLY
only read the company's website and believe everything its salesmen write
or say, or are you independent and free thinking enough to dare venture
out and find truth on your own?

How many times has the Bible been re-written to suit the salesmen's
agenda at the moment? KJV is, what, the 12th or 13th edition? It's
loaded with errors and guesses and outright fraud.

Larry
--


Thnak you Larry, and what concerning the Bible is it that I shouldn't
agree with ?

On Dec 21, 3:23�am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:57:47 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Dec 20, 7:09?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar.

The only connection between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry is
with the Order of DeMolay which is a youth organization named after
Jacques DeMolay. It is a mentoring organization that the development
of civic awareness, leadership skills and personal responsibility.

There is a charitable organization outside the structure of
Freemasonry that is named The United Religious, Military and Masonic
Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes
and Malta which is sometimes called the Masonic Knights Templar, but
has no direct connection to Freemasonry other than the fact that the
members are all Master Masons.

There are only three degrees - Entered Apprentice. Fellow Craft and
Master Mason. ?Other "degrees" are declared, or to put it another way,
awarded depending on the Master Mason's involvement in the charitable
organization like the various Shrines or the Masonic Knights.

None of the Free Mason rituals are based on the rituals or theology of
the Knights Templar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wiki:

Despite Freemasonry's general disclaimer that no one Masonic
organization claims a direct heritage to the medieval Knights Templar,
certain degrees and orders are obviously patterned after the medieval
Order. These are best described as "commemorative orders" or degrees.
Nevertheless, in spite of the fraternity's official disclaimers, some
Masons, non-Masons and even anti-Masons insist that certain Masonic
rites or degrees originally had direct Templar influence.

And what exactly did I say? �There are only three degrees in
Freemasonry - count 'em, three. �Anything beyond Master Mason is
strictly commerative or social awards that have nothing to do with
Masonic degrees.

The base ritual in all lodges is exactly the same. �The officers,
symbols, words, signs and signals, opening and closing ritual, pieces
of note are exactly the same. �The altar is exactly the same. What is
placed on the altar is exactly the same in exaclty the same place
facing in the same direction. �There are minor differences sometimes
by Grand Lodge, regional or even local, but the base ritual and ranks
of officers of the Lodge are set in stone - so to speak.

The differences involve things like meeting times or commerative
formatting but even there, it follows the same order. �An example of a
"difference" between lodges would be the local lodge here in Woodstock
which is called a Moon Lodge - lodge is held on the night of a full
moon unless it's a regular Sunday in which case it is held Saturday
the night before the full moon or if Sunday is a religious holiday
(like Easter Sunday or Christmas) the day after. (Interesting note:
You can count the number of moon lodges in the US on one hand and most
of them are out west - the Woodstock lodge is the only one in New
England). �The lodge up in Southbridge is a Blue Lodge - meaning it is
one of the original chartered lodges by the Grand Lodge of
Massachuetts and has no numeric designation.

The whole base ritual of all Masonic ritual is the "story" of Hiriam
Abif and the building of the Temple of Solomon. �Most of it is made up
history, but it sounds good. There are certainly magical and mystical
elements to it, but what fraternity doesn't have similar features.

It has nothing to do with Knights Templar other than what I stated and
those Orders do not have anything in common with base level
Freemasonry.



American Masonic youth organizations such as the Order of DeMolay for
young men are named after the last Grand Master Templar Jacques de
Molay who was executed in the final suppression of the Templar order
in the early 1300s.

~~ snip ~~

Many other old and new organizations are called "Knights Templar".
However, organizations like the Order of the Solar Temple, Militi
Templi Scotia,or the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of
Jerusalem are in no way related to Masonic Knights Templar, and share
no relationship in either history, hierarchy, nor ritual.

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. �They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.

Like much pertaining to various systems of belief and ritual, few
things are reducible to absolutes and discussion continues, and
continues, and continues........ :-)

"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

I would suggest you actualy talk to a Mason who has spent some time in
lodges and as an officer. �I might also suggest that you stop reading
DaVinci Code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here's a Mason who disagrees with you:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html

Apparently there are differences of opinion within the order.
And of course, there are a variety of "rites" with varying numbers of
degrees operating under the common Masonic umbrella.

Is trying to identify the "true Freemason" as difficult as figuring
out who is a "real" American, Republican, Democrat, or Christian? :-)

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:16:44 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Dec 21, 3:23?am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:57:47 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Dec 20, 7:09?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar.

The only connection between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry is
with the Order of DeMolay which is a youth organization named after
Jacques DeMolay. It is a mentoring organization that the development
of civic awareness, leadership skills and personal responsibility.

There is a charitable organization outside the structure of
Freemasonry that is named The United Religious, Military and Masonic
Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes
and Malta which is sometimes called the Masonic Knights Templar, but
has no direct connection to Freemasonry other than the fact that the
members are all Master Masons.

There are only three degrees - Entered Apprentice. Fellow Craft and
Master Mason. ?Other "degrees" are declared, or to put it another way,
awarded depending on the Master Mason's involvement in the charitable
organization like the various Shrines or the Masonic Knights.

None of the Free Mason rituals are based on the rituals or theology of
the Knights Templar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wiki:

Despite Freemasonry's general disclaimer that no one Masonic
organization claims a direct heritage to the medieval Knights Templar,
certain degrees and orders are obviously patterned after the medieval
Order. These are best described as "commemorative orders" or degrees.
Nevertheless, in spite of the fraternity's official disclaimers, some
Masons, non-Masons and even anti-Masons insist that certain Masonic
rites or degrees originally had direct Templar influence.

And what exactly did I say? ?There are only three degrees in
Freemasonry - count 'em, three. ?Anything beyond Master Mason is
strictly commerative or social awards that have nothing to do with
Masonic degrees.

The base ritual in all lodges is exactly the same. ?The officers,
symbols, words, signs and signals, opening and closing ritual, pieces
of note are exactly the same. ?The altar is exactly the same. What is
placed on the altar is exactly the same in exaclty the same place
facing in the same direction. ?There are minor differences sometimes
by Grand Lodge, regional or even local, but the base ritual and ranks
of officers of the Lodge are set in stone - so to speak.

The differences involve things like meeting times or commerative
formatting but even there, it follows the same order. ?An example of a
"difference" between lodges would be the local lodge here in Woodstock
which is called a Moon Lodge - lodge is held on the night of a full
moon unless it's a regular Sunday in which case it is held Saturday
the night before the full moon or if Sunday is a religious holiday
(like Easter Sunday or Christmas) the day after. (Interesting note:
You can count the number of moon lodges in the US on one hand and most
of them are out west - the Woodstock lodge is the only one in New
England). ?The lodge up in Southbridge is a Blue Lodge - meaning it is
one of the original chartered lodges by the Grand Lodge of
Massachuetts and has no numeric designation.

The whole base ritual of all Masonic ritual is the "story" of Hiriam
Abif and the building of the Temple of Solomon. ?Most of it is made up
history, but it sounds good. There are certainly magical and mystical
elements to it, but what fraternity doesn't have similar features.

It has nothing to do with Knights Templar other than what I stated and
those Orders do not have anything in common with base level
Freemasonry.



American Masonic youth organizations such as the Order of DeMolay for
young men are named after the last Grand Master Templar Jacques de
Molay who was executed in the final suppression of the Templar order
in the early 1300s.

~~ snip ~~

Many other old and new organizations are called "Knights Templar".
However, organizations like the Order of the Solar Temple, Militi
Templi Scotia,or the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of
Jerusalem are in no way related to Masonic Knights Templar, and share
no relationship in either history, hierarchy, nor ritual.

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. ?They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.

Like much pertaining to various systems of belief and ritual, few
things are reducible to absolutes and discussion continues, and
continues, and continues........ :-)

"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

I would suggest you actualy talk to a Mason who has spent some time in
lodges and as an officer. ?I might also suggest that you stop reading
DaVinci Code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here's a Mason who disagrees with you:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html

Apparently there are differences of opinion within the order.
And of course, there are a variety of "rites" with varying numbers of
degrees operating under the common Masonic umbrella.

Is trying to identify the "true Freemason" as difficult as figuring
out who is a "real" American, Republican, Democrat, or Christian? :-)

Chuck, just go listen to the music (without what you may consider the
bothersome religious symbols).

http://tinyurl.com/35plpm
--
John H

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote in
:

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.


But, what about these levels ABOVE Master Mason?
http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/id193.htm
Notice the eye of HORUS, the Egyptian sun god 3000 BC at the top looking
down on it all. These men are NOT Christians. Wolves in sheep's
clothing, yes?

Their Phallus of Osirus is EXACTLY East of the point where President
Kennedy was shot...Take a look at Dealey Plaza from Google Earth.
Coincidence? EXACTLY East...in front of the temple...32 degrees N
latitude. Coincidence or a warning to those who follow?

Here, take a little tour of these wonderful, benevolent people:
http://freemasonrywatch.org/

Remember when "they" taught you in elementary school how to hold your
hand over your heart while pledging allegiance to the New World Order?
This is but one of the masonic signals. There's a youtube video showing
lots more from freemasonrywatch.org,

(For those who don't know the "Phallus of Osirus" is the Washington
Monument and recurs across the planet as they lay claim to the earth.)
Wanna see the newest edition?....The Israeli Supreme Court building the
Illuminati Rothchilds built. There's one right out front.


Larry
--
QUOTE OF THE MONTH:
"I have been to several major Chinese cities and have seen first hand
shops crammed with obviously fake American products." - Jon Dudas,
Undersecretary of Commerce for Intellectual Property Rights.

How can they be fake? The Chinese make all "American Products" I use!

On Dec 20, 11:10�pm, Larry wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote in news:f42da1fc-950c-482b-
:



"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...22488652468125
Here's an excellent Templar/Freemason/Lightbringers video from England.

Larry

Interesting film. I think some of the allegations are pretty extreme
and perhaps totally unfounded, but as far as propaganda pieces go it
was
cleverly orchestrated.

The timeline of events outlined inspired me to consider our
collective, public attitude toward political revolutions. The film
purports that nearly all political revolutions in the western world
have Masonic connections.
Our attitude has certainly changed. While only a minority of New
England colonists actively supported the American Revolution at the
time (most were apathetic, and too busy trying to farm to really care
one way or the other), we look back at those events as once of the
most glorious achievements in the last couple of thousand years. It is
a well established fact that most of the founding fathers were
Freemasons.

From our modern perspective, most folks are a little more dubious
about the French revolution that occured soon after. Only about 80
years after the US was founded we had our own internal revolution, and
certainly among the side that prevailed in the ensuing military
conflict there was no sympathy at all for the idea of political
revolution.

Ever since the beginning of the 20th Century we tend to disapprove of
political revolts. There have been some exceptions, but as a rule we
now think of revolution as a negative thing- but according to the
filmmaker the "socialist" Freemasons have been at the root of most of
them.

I fact checked the claim made about Harry Truman. There are scores of
references confirming that when he was VP and before the US became
involved in WWII he said that if if looked like Germany was going to
beat Russia we should send military supplies to the Russians, and that
if it looked like Russia was going to beat Germany we should instead
aid the Nazis. Truman's rationale: "we need to perpetuate the war so
they will each kill off as many as possible." Changes my opinion of
Truman, at least a little bit, even if the film failed to change my
general opinion of Freemasonry.

On Dec 21, 10:23�am, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:16:44 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Dec 21, 3:23?am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:57:47 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 7:09?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all..

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol..
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar.

The only connection between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry is
with the Order of DeMolay which is a youth organization named after
Jacques DeMolay. It is a mentoring organization that the development
of civic awareness, leadership skills and personal responsibility.

There is a charitable organization outside the structure of
Freemasonry that is named The United Religious, Military and Masonic
Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes
and Malta which is sometimes called the Masonic Knights Templar, but
has no direct connection to Freemasonry other than the fact that the
members are all Master Masons.

There are only three degrees - Entered Apprentice. Fellow Craft and
Master Mason. ?Other "degrees" are declared, or to put it another way,
awarded depending on the Master Mason's involvement in the charitable
organization like the various Shrines or the Masonic Knights.

None of the Free Mason rituals are based on the rituals or theology of
the Knights Templar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wiki:

Despite Freemasonry's general disclaimer that no one Masonic
organization claims a direct heritage to the medieval Knights Templar,
certain degrees and orders are obviously patterned after the medieval
Order. These are best described as "commemorative orders" or degrees.
Nevertheless, in spite of the fraternity's official disclaimers, some
Masons, non-Masons and even anti-Masons insist that certain Masonic
rites or degrees originally had direct Templar influence.

And what exactly did I say? ?There are only three degrees in
Freemasonry - count 'em, three. ?Anything beyond Master Mason is
strictly commerative or social awards that have nothing to do with
Masonic degrees.

The base ritual in all lodges is exactly the same. ?The officers,
symbols, words, signs and signals, opening and closing ritual, pieces
of note are exactly the same. ?The altar is exactly the same. What is
placed on the altar is exactly the same in exaclty the same place
facing in the same direction. ?There are minor differences sometimes
by Grand Lodge, regional or even local, but the base ritual and ranks
of officers of the Lodge are set in stone - so to speak.

The differences involve things like meeting times or commerative
formatting but even there, it follows the same order. ?An example of a
"difference" between lodges would be the local lodge here in Woodstock
which is called a Moon Lodge - lodge is held on the night of a full
moon unless it's a regular Sunday in which case it is held Saturday
the night before the full moon or if Sunday is a religious holiday
(like Easter Sunday or Christmas) the day after. (Interesting note:
You can count the number of moon lodges in the US on one hand and most
of them are out west - the Woodstock lodge is the only one in New
England). ?The lodge up in Southbridge is a Blue Lodge - meaning it is
one of the original chartered lodges by the Grand Lodge of
Massachuetts and has no numeric designation.

The whole base ritual of all Masonic ritual is the "story" of Hiriam
Abif and the building of the Temple of Solomon. ?Most of it is made up
history, but it sounds good. There are certainly magical and mystical
elements to it, but what fraternity doesn't have similar features.

It has nothing to do with Knights Templar other than what I stated and
those Orders do not have anything in common with base level
Freemasonry.

American Masonic youth organizations such as the Order of DeMolay for
young men are named after the last Grand Master Templar Jacques de
Molay who was executed in the final suppression of the Templar order
in the early 1300s.

~~ snip ~~

Many other old and new organizations are called "Knights Templar".
However, organizations like the Order of the Solar Temple, Militi
Templi Scotia,or the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of
Jerusalem are in no way related to Masonic Knights Templar, and share
no relationship in either history, hierarchy, nor ritual.

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. ?They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.

Like much pertaining to various systems of belief and ritual, few
things are reducible to absolutes and discussion continues, and
continues, and continues........ :-)

"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

I would suggest you actualy talk to a Mason who has spent some time in
lodges and as an officer. ?I might also suggest that you stop reading
DaVinci Code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here's a Mason who disagrees with you:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html

Apparently there are differences of opinion within the order.
And of course, there are a variety of "rites" with varying numbers of
degrees operating under the common Masonic umbrella.

Is trying to identify the "true Freemason" as difficult as figuring
out who is a "real" American, Republican, Democrat, or Christian? �:-)

Chuck, just go listen to the music (without what you may consider the
bothersome religious symbols).

http://tinyurl.com/35plpm
--
John H- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I stated no objection to the religious symbols, and I did listen to
it.

But since you bring up the topic, why is The Good Shepherd red-headed,
with Nordic or Celtic features? JUST KIDDING (!)-- (I really don't
expect you to defend the image).

Merry Christmas, John.

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:14:12 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Dec 21, 10:23?am, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:16:44 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Dec 21, 3:23?am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:57:47 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 7:09?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar.

The only connection between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry is
with the Order of DeMolay which is a youth organization named after
Jacques DeMolay. It is a mentoring organization that the development
of civic awareness, leadership skills and personal responsibility.

There is a charitable organization outside the structure of
Freemasonry that is named The United Religious, Military and Masonic
Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes
and Malta which is sometimes called the Masonic Knights Templar, but
has no direct connection to Freemasonry other than the fact that the
members are all Master Masons.

There are only three degrees - Entered Apprentice. Fellow Craft and
Master Mason. ?Other "degrees" are declared, or to put it another way,
awarded depending on the Master Mason's involvement in the charitable
organization like the various Shrines or the Masonic Knights.

None of the Free Mason rituals are based on the rituals or theology of
the Knights Templar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wiki:

Despite Freemasonry's general disclaimer that no one Masonic
organization claims a direct heritage to the medieval Knights Templar,
certain degrees and orders are obviously patterned after the medieval
Order. These are best described as "commemorative orders" or degrees.
Nevertheless, in spite of the fraternity's official disclaimers, some
Masons, non-Masons and even anti-Masons insist that certain Masonic
rites or degrees originally had direct Templar influence.

And what exactly did I say? ?There are only three degrees in
Freemasonry - count 'em, three. ?Anything beyond Master Mason is
strictly commerative or social awards that have nothing to do with
Masonic degrees.

The base ritual in all lodges is exactly the same. ?The officers,
symbols, words, signs and signals, opening and closing ritual, pieces
of note are exactly the same. ?The altar is exactly the same. What is
placed on the altar is exactly the same in exaclty the same place
facing in the same direction. ?There are minor differences sometimes
by Grand Lodge, regional or even local, but the base ritual and ranks
of officers of the Lodge are set in stone - so to speak.

The differences involve things like meeting times or commerative
formatting but even there, it follows the same order. ?An example of a
"difference" between lodges would be the local lodge here in Woodstock
which is called a Moon Lodge - lodge is held on the night of a full
moon unless it's a regular Sunday in which case it is held Saturday
the night before the full moon or if Sunday is a religious holiday
(like Easter Sunday or Christmas) the day after. (Interesting note:
You can count the number of moon lodges in the US on one hand and most
of them are out west - the Woodstock lodge is the only one in New
England). ?The lodge up in Southbridge is a Blue Lodge - meaning it is
one of the original chartered lodges by the Grand Lodge of
Massachuetts and has no numeric designation.

The whole base ritual of all Masonic ritual is the "story" of Hiriam
Abif and the building of the Temple of Solomon. ?Most of it is made up
history, but it sounds good. There are certainly magical and mystical
elements to it, but what fraternity doesn't have similar features.

It has nothing to do with Knights Templar other than what I stated and
those Orders do not have anything in common with base level
Freemasonry.

American Masonic youth organizations such as the Order of DeMolay for
young men are named after the last Grand Master Templar Jacques de
Molay who was executed in the final suppression of the Templar order
in the early 1300s.

~~ snip ~~

Many other old and new organizations are called "Knights Templar".
However, organizations like the Order of the Solar Temple, Militi
Templi Scotia,or the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of
Jerusalem are in no way related to Masonic Knights Templar, and share
no relationship in either history, hierarchy, nor ritual.

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. ?They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.

Like much pertaining to various systems of belief and ritual, few
things are reducible to absolutes and discussion continues, and
continues, and continues........ :-)

"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

I would suggest you actualy talk to a Mason who has spent some time in
lodges and as an officer. ?I might also suggest that you stop reading
DaVinci Code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here's a Mason who disagrees with you:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html

Apparently there are differences of opinion within the order.
And of course, there are a variety of "rites" with varying numbers of
degrees operating under the common Masonic umbrella.

Is trying to identify the "true Freemason" as difficult as figuring
out who is a "real" American, Republican, Democrat, or Christian? ?:-)

Chuck, just go listen to the music (without what you may consider the
bothersome religious symbols).

http://tinyurl.com/35plpm
--
John H- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I stated no objection to the religious symbols, and I did listen to
it.

But since you bring up the topic, why is The Good Shepherd red-headed,
with Nordic or Celtic features? JUST KIDDING (!)-- (I really don't
expect you to defend the image).

Merry Christmas, John.

Lighting.

Merry Christmas to you too! We start early tomorrow with the kids and
grandkids showing up for presents and dinner. Should be fun!
--
John H

Tim wrote in news:5006ea55-fbad-4731-8c81-
:

Thnak you Larry, and what concerning the Bible is it that I
shouldn't
agree with ?



You may agree with anything you like. My point was you should maybe
drop the Sheeple thing and investigate other ideas, not just act like
a sheep being led to the shears for more tithing....

Larry
--
QUOTE OF THE MONTH:
"I have been to several major Chinese cities and have seen first hand
shops crammed with obviously fake American products." - Jon Dudas,
Undersecretary of Commerce for Intellectual Property Rights.

How can they be fake? The Chinese make all "American Products" I
use!

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:13:36 -0800 (PST), Tim penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:



Larry wrote:
Tim wrote in news:e96f7861-68ca-49dc-a8a0-
:

Larry, why try to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Here's a more simplified version on who Jesus is:

Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV)

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his
disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God.




If you want to find out the truth about any product.....do you REALLY
only read the company's website and believe everything its salesmen write
or say, or are you independent and free thinking enough to dare venture
out and find truth on your own?

How many times has the Bible been re-written to suit the salesmen's
agenda at the moment? KJV is, what, the 12th or 13th edition? It's
loaded with errors and guesses and outright fraud.

Larry
--


Thank you Larry, and what concerning the Bible is it that I shouldn't
agree with ?

I think Larry is trying to get you to look at the source of the Bible.
Have you ever considered the testaments that *weren't* included in the
Bible?

The Catholics decided, in the 4th century, what you should believe
and.... by a show of hands .....decided what should be considered holy
and what should be considered anathema. If one was politically correct
one's motion(dogma) carried, if not it didn't. The true word was
created!

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.

Isn't it interesting that various factions of Christians have come to
different conclusions about what is infallible and inerrant.

I first graduated from a college affiliated with a particular
Christian denomination. We were required to study religion and I found
studying both sides of a central point in time established by the
Councils of Nicea to be an amazing trip. This led me to the conclusion
that anybody that feels that they are Christian should do at least two
things:

1) Read the Bible.... ALL OF IT..... and

2) Study the history of the creation of Christianity....

Agree or disagree with what you like..... but you owe it to yourself
to be an informed consumer....

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats


---
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Tested on: 12/21/2007 5:07:23 PM
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Oh I know what you're saying Gene, I have read and I know what I
believe. Yes I've read the Apocrypha, the Gospel fo Judas, the Gospel
of Thomas, some other texts by Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, not
counting many commenteries, and historical backgrounds concerning many
events listed asnd surrounding scriptures etc. and have figured out
for myself what fits and what doesn't.

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.


From what I gather, there were many translations of greek and hebrew
flowing around, and in a nutshell, James wanted a translation that
would be very well examined by scholars in both Hebrew and Greek, so
that there could be one agreeable text that could be suited for
everyone. I'll never say it's the ONLY nor the BEST trasnslation, but
for the most part is deemed acceptable, but over time,
languages,phrases, and word meanings do change. so.... yes there are
better ones available. I won't disagree with that, after all, just
one example is the King James word "Baptize" . It's a "made-to-fit"
word to provide that one should have some type of Christian
confirmation, and how you do it is your own business. . I could go on
some more but no need to bother...

Now concerning Larrys statement about "sheeple, and tithe..." ?

I really don't know what nor how to consider that statement, but if
anything else, I don't subscribe to seemingly every conspiracy theory
that can be drempt up. So I'm sitting here humorously pondering who
and/or what the real "sheeple" is... or are"

Tim wrote:

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:13:36 -0800 (PST), Tim penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


Larry wrote:
Tim wrote in news:e96f7861-68ca-49dc-a8a0-
:

Larry, why try to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Here's a more simplified version on who Jesus is:

Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV)

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his
disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God.



If you want to find out the truth about any product.....do you REALLY
only read the company's website and believe everything its salesmen write
or say, or are you independent and free thinking enough to dare venture
out and find truth on your own?

How many times has the Bible been re-written to suit the salesmen's
agenda at the moment? KJV is, what, the 12th or 13th edition? It's
loaded with errors and guesses and outright fraud.

Larry
--

Thank you Larry, and what concerning the Bible is it that I shouldn't
agree with ?
I think Larry is trying to get you to look at the source of the Bible.
Have you ever considered the testaments that *weren't* included in the
Bible?

The Catholics decided, in the 4th century, what you should believe
and.... by a show of hands .....decided what should be considered holy
and what should be considered anathema. If one was politically correct
one's motion(dogma) carried, if not it didn't. The true word was
created!

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.

Isn't it interesting that various factions of Christians have come to
different conclusions about what is infallible and inerrant.

I first graduated from a college affiliated with a particular
Christian denomination. We were required to study religion and I found
studying both sides of a central point in time established by the
Councils of Nicea to be an amazing trip. This led me to the conclusion
that anybody that feels that they are Christian should do at least two
things:

1) Read the Bible.... ALL OF IT..... and

2) Study the history of the creation of Christianity....

Agree or disagree with what you like..... but you owe it to yourself
to be an informed consumer....

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats


---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 071123-0, 11/23/2007
Tested on: 12/21/2007 5:07:23 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com

Oh I know what you're saying Gene, I have read and I know what I
believe. Yes I've read the Apocrypha, the Gospel fo Judas, the Gospel
of Thomas, some other texts by Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, not
counting many commenteries, and historical backgrounds concerning many
events listed asnd surrounding scriptures etc. and have figured out
for myself what fits and what doesn't.

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.


From what I gather, there were many translations of greek and hebrew
flowing around, and in a nutshell, James wanted a translation that
would be very well examined by scholars in both Hebrew and Greek, so
that there could be one agreeable text that could be suited for
everyone. I'll never say it's the ONLY nor the BEST trasnslation, but
for the most part is deemed acceptable, but over time,
languages,phrases, and word meanings do change. so.... yes there are
better ones available. I won't disagree with that, after all, just
one example is the King James word "Baptize" . It's a "made-to-fit"
word to provide that one should have some type of Christian
confirmation, and how you do it is your own business. . I could go on
some more but no need to bother...

Now concerning Larrys statement about "sheeple, and tithe..." ?

I really don't know what nor how to consider that statement, but if
anything else, I don't subscribe to seemingly every conspiracy theory
that can be drempt up. So I'm sitting here humorously pondering who
and/or what the real "sheeple" is... or are"



All this fuss over a guy who was born Jewish, lived Jewish, and died
Jewish, who didn't preach to the pagans and didn't want to, and never
intended that a bunch of guys break off from Judaism and start a "new"
religion based upon a name he never had.

:}