Twin engine docking
 

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:28:24 -0400, "Steve P" wrote:


He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the
bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns
to the right.

Try it sometime.

Eisboch


Hmmm. Actually push the left side of the handle bar away from you while
pulling the right side towards you and you go right.


No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I haven't
tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the motorcycle
to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing. Push on the
right ... bike will turn towards the right.

I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad.
So did I until I tried it.

Eisboch

Okay, I'll vouch for Eisboch. Except I always thougnt of it as push on the
hand grip that is closest to the pavement and you'll turn in that more
sharply in that direction... and if for some reason the handlebars should
snap back in the opposite direction you will be launched @ss over tea kettle
over said handlebars.

Steve P.


What you've said is correct. If you're in a turn, and you see you've not
turned sharply enough, pushing on the handlebar closest to the pavement
(the inside of the turn) will cause the bike to turn more sharply.

What will cause handlebars to 'snap back' is often referred to as 'high
siding'. This is caused by releasing the rear brake while the bike is in a
rear-wheel skid. The sudden resumption of traction will cause the bike to
suddenly right itself, often too far.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:02:11 -0000, thunder wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:29:19 -0400, Eisboch wrote:


No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I
haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the
motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing.
Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right.

I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad.
So did I until I tried it.

It might help to explain, pushing left *initiates* a left turn. I think
everyone understands motorcycles turn by leaning, and pushing left is the
quickest way to get that left-hand lean. If you kept pushing left, you
wouldn't be turning, you would be on the ground, on the left hand side of
the motorcycle of course.

I found this one paragraph from one of your links quite clarifying.

"If we intentionally move the contact patch line from vertically beneath
the Center of Gravity, the bike will start to lean. For example, if while
riding the bike straight ahead, we press on the left bar the front wheel
points to the right. The front wheel tracks to the right (sometimes
called “out tracking”). So the weight of bike and rider is now to the
LEFT of it’s “support” on the ground, the tire contact patches. Because
the weight is to the left, the bike leans to the left. It is important to
note, for a LEFT turn, we initiate a lean to the left by pressing on the
left bar, turning the front wheel to the RIGHT. This is often referred to
as COUNTERSTEERING: a turn to the left initiated by turning the front
wheel to the right."

Yeah, countersteering. Push left - go left. Push right - go right.

Thank you.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:31:41 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:53:43 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I guess you all will have to just go try it. It's due to the gryoscopic
stability of the bike.

I just returned from my morning bike ride on my brandy new mountain
bike. I push the handle bar left, it goes bicycle goes right. I lean
left, the bicycle goes left.

I think, based on this morning's experiments, that this is one of
those Myths (don't bother - I've already submitted it to Mythbusters)
that is based on observation error.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Now .... did you know that helicopters were impossible to fly until
gyroscopic progression was recognized and accounted for in the control of
the rotating airfoils?

Yes.

Somehow boating will tie into this somewhere.....

Pontoons on helicopters. And the CG and Navy fly helicopters.

Ipso Facto - QED - boating thread. :)

You gotta have some speed. Try it with one hand, on pavement, with speed.
If you push left you will go left, unless you've figured out a way to go
right while the bike is leaning far to the left!

Twin engine docking
 

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:05:08 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
rthlink.net...
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and
how
it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude
200's.

-When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when
maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having
a
hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!!
So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort
and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that
if it's actually easier to use the engines.

ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Think in terms of a bicycle handlebar.........turn left and your left hand
(port engine controls) pulls down (reverse) or towards you on the
handlebar,
right hand (starboard engine) up (forward) or away from you......turn
right
and your left hand pushes up (forward on the port engine) and your right
hand down (reverse on the starboard engine)..........all the time with
both
engines in idle and the wheel in the forward (straight ahead position) and
not touching the wheel.

When I would stern in with our larger boat (with twins) I would slowly go
past the slip (on the starboard side) while centering the wheel and
engines
at idle, put port in reverse while bumping starboard in and out of forward
or reverse as I needed to adjust my position. When finalizing the
approach
and parallel to the slip I would nudge both engines in and then out of
forward to stop the boats reverse progress.

This worked for me.
This worked for me


Not to be picky, but if you're going at any speed on your bicycle and pull
the left handlebar towards you, you will turn right.

Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle.


Oh my! You sniffin' the wife's nail polish again? Shame on you!


No, I've spent many hours teaching prospective motorcycle riders how to
ride.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:15:52 -0400, "JimH"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:54:28 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...


Sorry John - didn't work that way and never has.

I still say those who are on the left/left side of the argument are
confusing two seperate issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Some people should just stick with 4-wheeled Corvettes.

ROTFL!!

Damn straight.

Hey, I'm only here for the discussion. :)

Besides, I'm not a motorcycle person. Hate the things actually.

I regard motorcycle riders in the same vein as PWC riders.

I won't say which vein that is. :)

I was with a customer yesterday who just purchased an '07 Vette. The thing
is keyless and ignition is controlled by a proximity fob. He says the car
rides nicer than his new Silverado and is like night and day (ride wise)
compared to the '02 Vette he traded in.

They are very nice and if I could convince Mrs. Wave that I actually
need to purchase one as a long term investment for the kids, I'd be
riding in one right now.

Unfortunately, she ain't buying it.

~~ sigh ~~

Corvettes are the only thing GM ever made worth a damn.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:12:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 00:20:34 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"D.Duck" wrote in message
news:z4ednS8WPaSOkMPbnZ2dnUVZ_uSgnZ2d@giganews. com...

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:

Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.

Huh?

He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the
bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to
the right.

Try it sometime.

Ok I just did.

Pushing the left handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the right.

Pushing the right handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the left.

That is a ridiculous special case..... if you keep pushing, the
response of the motorcycle will be as above.

This phenomenon is just an exercise in balance control, not steerage.

I've never taken a motorcycle course and being cheap enough, I just
might do that.

I want to see this "taught" myself because I agree with you - it's
more about maintaining momentum and angle of attack in a turn than
actually steering.

Twin engine docking
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...

Oh no - your not getting out of this that easily. :)

"This is often referred to as COUNTERSTEERING"

Here is where I think the concepts are confusing.

Just for giggles, I borrowed the dirt bike from the kid across the
street and did some experiments on the straight and the S curves on my
road.

There is no way you can initiate a left hand turn by pushing the left
handlebar forward at speed going straight. It's not possible.

Now, if I lean left, I can control the turn by pushing the handlebar
up to maintain the angle of the turn and the angle of attack to the
curve. Just like a bicycle.

That is entirely different than initiating a left hand turn by pushing
the left handlebar forward.

And in case you are wondering what the neighbors thought of me running
up and down the road at differing speeds on a dirt bike at 6:40 AM and
turning right and left back and forth, don't worry about it. My
neighbors are used to the occasional slice of weirdness from me.

It's cheap entertainment. :)


I'd probably pay to watch you work through this process.......

Twin engine docking
 

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:05:08 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
arthlink.net...
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and
how
it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude
200's.

-When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when
maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm
having
a
hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!!
So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that
effort
and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing
that
if it's actually easier to use the engines.

ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Think in terms of a bicycle handlebar.........turn left and your left
hand
(port engine controls) pulls down (reverse) or towards you on the
handlebar,
right hand (starboard engine) up (forward) or away from you......turn
right
and your left hand pushes up (forward on the port engine) and your right
hand down (reverse on the starboard engine)..........all the time with
both
engines in idle and the wheel in the forward (straight ahead position)
and
not touching the wheel.

When I would stern in with our larger boat (with twins) I would slowly
go
past the slip (on the starboard side) while centering the wheel and
engines
at idle, put port in reverse while bumping starboard in and out of
forward
or reverse as I needed to adjust my position. When finalizing the
approach
and parallel to the slip I would nudge both engines in and then out of
forward to stop the boats reverse progress.

This worked for me.
This worked for me


Not to be picky, but if you're going at any speed on your bicycle and
pull
the left handlebar towards you, you will turn right.

Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.


Oh my! You sniffin' the wife's nail polish again? Shame on you!


No, I've spent many hours teaching prospective motorcycle riders how to
ride.


Lord help us all!

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:34:55 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:



Oh no - your not getting out of this that easily. :)

"This is often referred to as COUNTERSTEERING"

Here is where I think the concepts are confusing.

Just for giggles, I borrowed the dirt bike from the kid across the
street and did some experiments on the straight and the S curves on my
road.

There is no way you can initiate a left hand turn by pushing the left
handlebar forward at speed going straight. It's not possible.

Now, if I lean left, I can control the turn by pushing the handlebar
up to maintain the angle of the turn and the angle of attack to the
curve. Just like a bicycle.

You, sir, are wrong. But, that's OK. I didn't take into account that the
kid's dirt bike was a tricycle. Stop the leaning, which confuses the issue.
Pretend you are a sack of potatoes, i.e., keep your body on the same plane
as the bike. Now, at speed, take your right hand off the bar and slightly
push forward with your left hand. You will go left, unless you have a
negative rake angle on the bike. (For more on this, go to:

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP163.html

Or, it could be that a lot of people in the 'know' are just lying to you.
If, however, you are ever in a position where you must make a sudden
swerve, it helps to know how to do it. Guesswork causes people to go off
the edge of the road or hit the automobile they were trying to avoid.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:12:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:



That is a ridiculous special case..... if you keep pushing, the
response of the motorcycle will be as above.

This phenomenon is just an exercise in balance control, not steerage.

Check out my reply to Tom, or just go to:

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP163.html

Why would Eisboch and I lie about this?