|
Twin engine docking
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and
how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude 200's. -When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!! So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that if it's actually easier to use the engines. ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. |
Twin engine docking
"Joe" wrote in message
link.net... I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude 200's. -When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!! So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that if it's actually easier to use the engines. ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Interesting question. I'm just lurking here, so I'll tag on another question that might be related. Inboards, even when in neutral, exert some force on the boat that can be used to move in a certain direction. Do outboards do this? |
Twin engine docking
"Joe" wrote in message link.net... I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude 200's. -When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!! So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that if it's actually easier to use the engines. ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Think in terms of a bicycle handlebar.........turn left and your left hand (port engine controls) pulls down (reverse) or towards you on the handlebar, right hand (starboard engine) up (forward) or away from you......turn right and your left hand pushes up (forward on the port engine) and your right hand down (reverse on the starboard engine)..........all the time with both engines in idle and the wheel in the forward (straight ahead position) and not touching the wheel. When I would stern in with our larger boat (with twins) I would slowly go past the slip (on the starboard side) while centering the wheel and engines at idle, put port in reverse while bumping starboard in and out of forward or reverse as I needed to adjust my position. When finalizing the approach and parallel to the slip I would nudge both engines in and then out of forward to stop the boats reverse progress. This worked for me. This worked for me |
Twin engine docking
On May 30, 2:49?pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
Inboards, even when in neutral, exert some force on the boat that can be used to move in a certain direction. Where did you ever get such an idea? Take it back for a refund. :-) |
Twin engine docking
"John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: "Joe" wrote in message thlink.net... I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude 200's. -When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!! So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that if it's actually easier to use the engines. ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Think in terms of a bicycle handlebar.........turn left and your left hand (port engine controls) pulls down (reverse) or towards you on the handlebar, right hand (starboard engine) up (forward) or away from you......turn right and your left hand pushes up (forward on the port engine) and your right hand down (reverse on the starboard engine)..........all the time with both engines in idle and the wheel in the forward (straight ahead position) and not touching the wheel. When I would stern in with our larger boat (with twins) I would slowly go past the slip (on the starboard side) while centering the wheel and engines at idle, put port in reverse while bumping starboard in and out of forward or reverse as I needed to adjust my position. When finalizing the approach and parallel to the slip I would nudge both engines in and then out of forward to stop the boats reverse progress. This worked for me. This worked for me Not to be picky, but if you're going at any speed on your bicycle and pull the left handlebar towards you, you will turn right. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? |
Twin engine docking
On May 30, 2:49?pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message link.net... I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude 200's. -When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!! So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that if it's actually easier to use the engines. ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Interesting question. I'm just lurking here, so I'll tag on another question that might be related. Inboards, even when in neutral, exert some force on the boat that can be used to move in a certain direction. Do outboards do this? Sounds like you're approaching the dock at almost a 90 degree angle, and then trying to make a 90 degree turn to put your port or starboard side against the dock or float? Many boaters rely almost exclusively on the engines when docking a twin engine boat under normal conditions. Don't forget to visualize your "pivot point" which will be about halfway between your bow and your stern on most twin engine vessels. Also, you could easily find yourself moving ahead of the spot where you hope to pivot when you put one engine in forward and the other in reserse. The reason for this is that the prop works a lot more efficiently in forward than in reverse, so if you want the reverse side to come back at the same speed that the forward side is going ahead you will need to use a bit more throttle on the reverse engine. You might try approaching the dock at less of an angle than "perpendicular" -unless you have very strong wind blowing you directly off the dock and in that case the closer to perpendicular the better. Try something closer to about 30-35 degrees. As you get close to the dock use your twins to "pivot" the bow out a bit so that it doesn't wack anything and that will of course also pivot your stern toward the dock.Remember that momentum will continue to carry your boat toward the dock as you pivot, closing the "gap" that would otherwise exist between the side of your boat and the dock. Don't approach the dock any faster than you are willing to hit it. Don't be afraid to back off and go around again. (Just as I had to do last weekend when a gust of wind blew up at the wrong moment.....) Don't expect to be really good at this without a lot of practice, but you can become passably capable in an afternoon. |
Twin engine docking
"D.Duck" wrote in message ... "John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: "Joe" wrote in message rthlink.net... I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude 200's. -When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!! So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that if it's actually easier to use the engines. ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Think in terms of a bicycle handlebar.........turn left and your left hand (port engine controls) pulls down (reverse) or towards you on the handlebar, right hand (starboard engine) up (forward) or away from you......turn right and your left hand pushes up (forward on the port engine) and your right hand down (reverse on the starboard engine)..........all the time with both engines in idle and the wheel in the forward (straight ahead position) and not touching the wheel. When I would stern in with our larger boat (with twins) I would slowly go past the slip (on the starboard side) while centering the wheel and engines at idle, put port in reverse while bumping starboard in and out of forward or reverse as I needed to adjust my position. When finalizing the approach and parallel to the slip I would nudge both engines in and then out of forward to stop the boats reverse progress. This worked for me. This worked for me Not to be picky, but if you're going at any speed on your bicycle and pull the left handlebar towards you, you will turn right. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? John Herring is a boatless bitter old man who obviously has no experience with twin engines or bicycles. It is best to ignore him. |
Twin engine docking
"John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: "Joe" wrote in message thlink.net... I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude 200's. -When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!! So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that if it's actually easier to use the engines. ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Think in terms of a bicycle handlebar.........turn left and your left hand (port engine controls) pulls down (reverse) or towards you on the handlebar, right hand (starboard engine) up (forward) or away from you......turn right and your left hand pushes up (forward on the port engine) and your right hand down (reverse on the starboard engine)..........all the time with both engines in idle and the wheel in the forward (straight ahead position) and not touching the wheel. When I would stern in with our larger boat (with twins) I would slowly go past the slip (on the starboard side) while centering the wheel and engines at idle, put port in reverse while bumping starboard in and out of forward or reverse as I needed to adjust my position. When finalizing the approach and parallel to the slip I would nudge both engines in and then out of forward to stop the boats reverse progress. This worked for me. This worked for me Not to be picky, but if you're going at any speed on your bicycle and pull the left handlebar towards you, you will turn right. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Oh my! You sniffin' the wife's nail polish again? Shame on you! |
Twin engine docking
"D.Duck" wrote in message ... "John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Eisboch |
Twin engine docking
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message hlink.net... I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude 200's. -When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!! So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that if it's actually easier to use the engines. ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Think in terms of a bicycle handlebar.........turn left and your left hand (port engine controls) pulls down (reverse) or towards you on the handlebar, right hand (starboard engine) up (forward) or away from you......turn right and your left hand pushes up (forward on the port engine) and your right hand down (reverse on the starboard engine)..........all the time with both engines in idle and the wheel in the forward (straight ahead position) and not touching the wheel. When I would stern in with our larger boat (with twins) I would slowly go past the slip (on the starboard side) while centering the wheel and engines at idle, put port in reverse while bumping starboard in and out of forward or reverse as I needed to adjust my position. When finalizing the approach and parallel to the slip I would nudge both engines in and then out of forward to stop the boats reverse progress. This worked for me. This worked for me Not to be picky, but if you're going at any speed on your bicycle and pull the left handlebar towards you, you will turn right. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. |
Twin engine docking
On Wed, 30 May 2007 16:45:02 GMT, Joe
wrote: I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude 200's. -When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!! So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that if it's actually easier to use the engines. ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated. With outboards, you have to remember that you are using vectored thrust. "Spin" a boat with outboards is possible, but it requires practice. The simplest way to manuever is to put the opposite engine in reverse (or forward depending) and use the other engine to change the direction of the bow. Occasionally, you will need to reverse that process while manuevering as conditions warrant. Backing into any spot is also the best way to use vectored thrust in my opinion. In reverse, you are pulling the boat much like you would a front wheel drive car - the way you turn the wheel is the way the boat will go - much like backing up a trailer. Once you get a line of the dock, the rest is just applying power in the appropriate direction to bring the bow into alignment. What I find very helpful in teaching docking manuevers is to pick a bouy ( or even a floating dock if there aren't any swimmers around) and use that for practice. Just spent an hour or so learning how the boat reacts using different approaches and experiment with the proper combination of power and thrust. |
Twin engine docking
On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message m... "John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Ok I just did. Pushing the left handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the right. Pushing the right handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the left. |
Twin engine docking
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... Ok I just did. Pushing the left handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the right. Pushing the right handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the left. Ya gotta be riding it .... and moving. Eisboch |
Twin engine docking
"HK" wrote in message . .. Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: Ok I just did. Pushing the left handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the right. Pushing the right handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the left. Yeah, I wonder where the error came from... Non believers ... all of you. Believe me .... it's true. Eisboch |
Twin engine docking
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message ... "John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Ok I just did. Pushing the left handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the right. Pushing the right handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the left. Yeah, I wonder where the error came from... |
Twin engine docking
"Eisboch" wrote in message ... "D.Duck" wrote in message ... "John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Eisboch Hmmm. Actually push the left side of the handle bar away from you while pulling the right side towards you and you go right. |
Twin engine docking
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message om... "John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Ok I just did. Pushing the left handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the right. Pushing the right handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the left. Give that man a cigar! |
Twin engine docking
"JimH" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message ... "D.Duck" wrote in message ... "John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Eisboch Hmmm. Actually push the left side of the handle bar away from you while pulling the right side towards you and you go right. No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing. Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right. I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad. So did I until I tried it. Eisboch |
Twin engine docking
"JimH" wrote in message ... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message news:z4ednS8WPaSOkMPbnZ2dnUVZ_uSgnZ2d@giganews. com... "John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Ok I just did. Pushing the left handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the right. Pushing the right handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the left. Give that man a cigar! Not yet. True, standing still, the front wheel will move as described. But when moving ... the bike (not the front wheel) will turn to the side that you are pushing on. Eisboch |
Twin engine docking
"JimH" wrote in message ... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message news:z4ednS8WPaSOkMPbnZ2dnUVZ_uSgnZ2d@giganews. com... Lookie her: http://www.rider-ed.com/tips/motorcyclestability.htm Eisboch |
Twin engine docking
"Eisboch" wrote in message ... "JimH" wrote in message ... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message news:z4ednS8WPaSOkMPbnZ2dnUVZ_uSgnZ2d@giganews .com... Lookie her: http://www.rider-ed.com/tips/motorcyclestability.htm Eisboch Meant to type "Lookie here" .... anyway, the link describes gyroscopic progression which is why JohnH was correct. Eisboch |
Twin engine docking
On Wed, 30 May 2007 16:45:02 GMT, Joe
wrote: I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude 200's. The big issue with twin engine outboards is that the engines are are usually mounted close together, and the props are relatively small. As a result, most twin engine maneuvering tricks don't work particularly well or take longer than you'd like. Get some practice in open water and find out what works on your particular boat. If you want to spin quickly to port, put the starboard shifter forward, and the port shifter in reverse. In addition, turn the wheel hard to port for some vectored thrust. Everything is opposite for spinning to starboard. Be wary of trying to spin the bow into the wind in close quarters. Wind is not your friend on a lighter boat and you need to maneuver quickly and decisively, all the time controling your speed to the minimum required to accomplish all of that. It can be a delicate balance at times and requires practice. |
Twin engine docking
"Eisboch" wrote in message ... "JimH" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message ... "D.Duck" wrote in message ... "John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Eisboch Hmmm. Actually push the left side of the handle bar away from you while pulling the right side towards you and you go right. No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing. Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right. I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad. So did I until I tried it. Eisboch I've never ridden a motorcycle. But if I'm on my bicycle and I push on the left hand handle bar, or pull on the right one (rotating the handle bars clockwise as viewed by a bird flying by) and the bike turns right. I still cannot comprehend how adding a motor causes the opposite. |
Twin engine docking
"D.Duck" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message ... "JimH" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message ... "D.Duck" wrote in message ... "John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Eisboch Hmmm. Actually push the left side of the handle bar away from you while pulling the right side towards you and you go right. No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing. Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right. I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad. So did I until I tried it. Eisboch I've never ridden a motorcycle. But if I'm on my bicycle and I push on the left hand handle bar, or pull on the right one (rotating the handle bars clockwise as viewed by a bird flying by) and the bike turns right. I still cannot comprehend how adding a motor causes the opposite. Nothing to do with the motor. There are a lot of factors in play when you make a turn on a two-wheeled vehicle. Try this sometime on you're bicycle. Ride along, nice and straight and without leaning. As you pedal along, gently push one of the handlebars away from you. (no leaning) Note which way the bike tries to turn. Eisboch |
Twin engine docking
On May 30, 5:20�pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message m... "John H." wrote in message . .. On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? He's correct. *Same on a motorcycle. * Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. *Push the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Ok I just did. Pushing the left handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the right. Pushing the right handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the left.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Did you take into account the shifting of your weight in order to "push" (down?) on the left handle bar? |
Twin engine docking
On May 30, 5:29�pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"JimH" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message m... "D.Duck" wrote in message om... "John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? He's correct. *Same on a motorcycle. * Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. *Push the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Eisboch Hmmm. * Actually push the left side of the handle bar away from you while pulling the right side towards you and you go right. No. * On a moving motorcycle, *(and I assume a bicycle, although I haven't tried it) pushing the *left handle away from you will cause the motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing. *Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right. I can see several people are having trouble with this. *Don't feel bad. *So did I until I tried it. Eisboch- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I think it has to do with the shifting of weight to the side you are "pushing" on. |
Twin engine docking
"D.Duck" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message ... "JimH" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message ... "D.Duck" wrote in message ... "John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Eisboch Hmmm. Actually push the left side of the handle bar away from you while pulling the right side towards you and you go right. No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing. Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right. I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad. So did I until I tried it. Eisboch I've never ridden a motorcycle. But if I'm on my bicycle and I push on the left hand handle bar, or pull on the right one (rotating the handle bars clockwise as viewed by a bird flying by) and the bike turns right. I still cannot comprehend how adding a motor causes the opposite. Yep. The only exception is with high speed racing motorcycles, bikes or cars going into turns on a dirt or otherwise slippery track. I was never talking about those conditions. Every bicycle I ever used turned right when I pushed the left side of the handle bar away me. Every motorcycle I ever owned did the same. Thus my analogy in my original post. I never thought my original post to this thread would evolve into dirt bike racing maneuvers or disagreements on how to ride a bicycle. 'nuf said. ;-) |
Twin engine docking
He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Eisboch Hmmm. Actually push the left side of the handle bar away from you while pulling the right side towards you and you go right. No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing. Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right. I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad. So did I until I tried it. Eisboch Okay, I'll vouch for Eisboch. Except I always thougnt of it as push on the hand grip that is closest to the pavement and you'll turn in that more sharply in that direction... and if for some reason the handlebars should snap back in the opposite direction you will be launched @ss over tea kettle over said handlebars. Steve P. |
Twin engine docking
"Eisboch" wrote in message ... "D.Duck" wrote in message ... "John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Eisboch Aren't you talking about 'drifting'.. as you might see on a dirt racetrack? |
Twin engine docking
"Don White" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message ... "D.Duck" wrote in message ... "John H." wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Eisboch Aren't you talking about 'drifting'.. as you might see on a dirt racetrack? No. I guess you all will have to just go try it. It's due to the gryoscopic stability of the bike. Now .... did you know that helicopters were impossible to fly until gyroscopic progression was recognized and accounted for in the control of the rotating airfoils? Somehow boating will tie into this somewhere..... Eisboch |
Twin engine docking
Here's one more link on the motorcycle/bicycle steering subject, and I'll
let it now drop. For the non-believers, I've quoted a small section of the article below: "The concept of turning the front wheel one way to go the opposite way certainly is counterintuitive. Those of us who started riding before there was rider training probably had to grasp the concept by ourselves, and perhaps we did it subconsciously. And some people never quite realize that you steer left to go right and vice versa. In fact, I have heard some longtime riders insist that that's not the case, that motorcycles steer the way the front wheel is initially turned. I have also heard bicyclists deny that a bicycle steers this way. The issue is also confused by the fact that you can steer a motorcycle by leaning, as anyone who has ridden any distance with their hands off the bars (a practice that can lead to disaster if you hit something in the road or have a flat tire, I need to point out) can testify. Some motorcyclists will tell you that shifting your body weight is the primary way to steer a motorcycle." Source: http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/str...untersteering/ Eisboch |
Twin engine docking
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
: No one can give you a good answer without knowing a good deal more about your set-up. For instance: How closely spaced are the outboards, are they both righthand/left hand wheels, are they counter rotating (inboard turning, outboard turning)...so forth and so on. Best bet, find out this info then find someone in your area with a similar set-up who seems (from observation) to know how to handle his/her boat, and ask for help. otn "Joe" wrote in message link.net... I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude 200's. -When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!! So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that if it's actually easier to use the engines. ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Interesting question. I'm just lurking here, so I'll tag on another question that might be related. Inboards, even when in neutral, exert some force on the boat that can be used to move in a certain direction. Do outboards do this? |
Twin engine docking
Ok forget all about the cycle analogies you are reading. If you're in a
pinch and get nervous, remember this. Look at your shifters/throttles. See how the port throttle bends or is angled towards starboard? And the reverse is true for the starboard throttle/shifter? This was done for ergonomics, but it's a great helper as well. The part of the boat you want to steer will always follow that bend. So if you want the stern to go to starboard in reverse, then the port shifter should be used (in reverse). Visualize it... you pull the port shifter to reverse, and that bend is pointing starboard... the stern will go the direction of the bend. Take that same port ****er and move it forward, and the bow will move to starboard... same direction as the bend. Want to go in circles about the boat? On ahead and one aft, and the boat will pivot in the direction of the bend in the shifters. Try it. --Mike "Joe" wrote in message link.net... I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude 200's. -When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!! So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that if it's actually easier to use the engines. ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. |
Twin engine docking
On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:53:43 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote: I guess you all will have to just go try it. It's due to the gryoscopic stability of the bike. I just returned from my morning bike ride on my brandy new mountain bike. I push the handle bar left, it goes bicycle goes right. I lean left, the bicycle goes left. I think, based on this morning's experiments, that this is one of those Myths (don't bother - I've already submitted it to Mythbusters) that is based on observation error. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :) Now .... did you know that helicopters were impossible to fly until gyroscopic progression was recognized and accounted for in the control of the rotating airfoils? Yes. Somehow boating will tie into this somewhere..... Pontoons on helicopters. And the CG and Navy fly helicopters. Ipso Facto - QED - boating thread. :) |
Twin engine docking
On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:29:19 -0400, Eisboch wrote:
No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing. Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right. I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad. So did I until I tried it. It might help to explain, pushing left *initiates* a left turn. I think everyone understands motorcycles turn by leaning, and pushing left is the quickest way to get that left-hand lean. If you kept pushing left, you wouldn't be turning, you would be on the ground, on the left hand side of the motorcycle of course. I found this one paragraph from one of your links quite clarifying. "If we intentionally move the contact patch line from vertically beneath the Center of Gravity, the bike will start to lean. For example, if while riding the bike straight ahead, we press on the left bar the front wheel points to the right. The front wheel tracks to the right (sometimes called “out tracking�). So the weight of bike and rider is now to the LEFT of it’s “support� on the ground, the tire contact patches. Because the weight is to the left, the bike leans to the left. It is important to note, for a LEFT turn, we initiate a lean to the left by pressing on the left bar, turning the front wheel to the RIGHT. This is often referred to as COUNTERSTEERING: a turn to the left initiated by turning the front wheel to the right." |
Twin engine docking
"thunder" wrote in message ... It might help to explain, pushing left *initiates* a left turn. I think everyone understands motorcycles turn by leaning, and pushing left is the quickest way to get that left-hand lean. If you kept pushing left, you wouldn't be turning, you would be on the ground, on the left hand side of the motorcycle of course. I found this one paragraph from one of your links quite clarifying. "If we intentionally move the contact patch line from vertically beneath the Center of Gravity, the bike will start to lean. For example, if while riding the bike straight ahead, we press on the left bar the front wheel points to the right. The front wheel tracks to the right (sometimes called "out tracking"). So the weight of bike and rider is now to the LEFT of it's "support" on the ground, the tire contact patches. Because the weight is to the left, the bike leans to the left. It is important to note, for a LEFT turn, we initiate a lean to the left by pressing on the left bar, turning the front wheel to the RIGHT. This is often referred to as COUNTERSTEERING: a turn to the left initiated by turning the front wheel to the right." I agree with the "initiates". It is an interesting action though and may be readily experienced if you ride straight and level at a constant speed, then very gently push one of the bars without leaning or correcting in any other way. Push too hard and you *will* have to take corrective action, otherwise you will go down. Oh, well. Enough of that. Eisboch |
Twin engine docking
On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:14:51 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote: "thunder" wrote in message ... It might help to explain, pushing left *initiates* a left turn. I think everyone understands motorcycles turn by leaning, and pushing left is the quickest way to get that left-hand lean. If you kept pushing left, you wouldn't be turning, you would be on the ground, on the left hand side of the motorcycle of course. I found this one paragraph from one of your links quite clarifying. "If we intentionally move the contact patch line from vertically beneath the Center of Gravity, the bike will start to lean. For example, if while riding the bike straight ahead, we press on the left bar the front wheel points to the right. The front wheel tracks to the right (sometimes called "out tracking"). So the weight of bike and rider is now to the LEFT of it's "support" on the ground, the tire contact patches. Because the weight is to the left, the bike leans to the left. It is important to note, for a LEFT turn, we initiate a lean to the left by pressing on the left bar, turning the front wheel to the RIGHT. This is often referred to as COUNTERSTEERING: a turn to the left initiated by turning the front wheel to the right." I agree with the "initiates". It is an interesting action though and may be readily experienced if you ride straight and level at a constant speed, then very gently push one of the bars without leaning or correcting in any other way. Push too hard and you *will* have to take corrective action, otherwise you will go down. Oh, well. Enough of that. Oh no - your not getting out of this that easily. :) "This is often referred to as COUNTERSTEERING" Here is where I think the concepts are confusing. Just for giggles, I borrowed the dirt bike from the kid across the street and did some experiments on the straight and the S curves on my road. There is no way you can initiate a left hand turn by pushing the left handlebar forward at speed going straight. It's not possible. Now, if I lean left, I can control the turn by pushing the handlebar up to maintain the angle of the turn and the angle of attack to the curve. Just like a bicycle. That is entirely different than initiating a left hand turn by pushing the left handlebar forward. And in case you are wondering what the neighbors thought of me running up and down the road at differing speeds on a dirt bike at 6:40 AM and turning right and left back and forth, don't worry about it. My neighbors are used to the occasional slice of weirdness from me. It's cheap entertainment. :) |
Twin engine docking
On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:23:30 -0500, John H.
wrote: On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:37:52 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: "Eisboch" wrote in message ... "JimH" wrote in message ... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message news:z4ednS8WPaSOkMPbnZ2dnUVZ_uSgnZ2d@gigane ws.com... Lookie her: http://www.rider-ed.com/tips/motorcyclestability.htm Meant to type "Lookie here" .... anyway, the link describes gyroscopic progression which is why JohnH was correct. It took a long time to convince Motorcycle Safety Foundation students of the same thing. The trick was to have them steer with one hand, then the push right - go right idea begins to stick. Take another look at that picture on the "lookee here" post. See anything interesting? |
Twin engine docking
On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:25:20 -0500, John H.
wrote: On 30 May 2007 18:19:01 -0700, Chuck Gould wrote: On May 30, 5:20?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: "D.Duck" wrote in message m... "John H." wrote in message . .. On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle. Huh? He's correct. ame on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the bike will make a left turn. ush the right handle forward, bike turns to the right. Try it sometime. Ok I just did. Pushing the left handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the right. Pushing the right handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the left.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Did you take into account the shifting of your weight in order to "push" (down?) on the left handle bar? The shifting of weight will lower the center of gravity, enabling a sharper turn with less lean angle. I think Tom was just experimenting with a bike at rest. If he had any speed on the bike, he'd be on the ground. All due respect John, but I was riding and I've been riding bicycles for a long time - since I was a kid in fact. As to speed, there is a long hill with a right hand curve that I use to build speed for a long straight run - that's where I did my experimenting. I didn't hit the ground. |
Twin engine docking
On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:37:28 -0500, John H.
wrote: On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:02:11 -0000, thunder wrote: On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:29:19 -0400, Eisboch wrote: No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing. Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right. I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad. So did I until I tried it. It might help to explain, pushing left *initiates* a left turn. I think everyone understands motorcycles turn by leaning, and pushing left is the quickest way to get that left-hand lean. If you kept pushing left, you wouldn't be turning, you would be on the ground, on the left hand side of the motorcycle of course. I found this one paragraph from one of your links quite clarifying. "If we intentionally move the contact patch line from vertically beneath the Center of Gravity, the bike will start to lean. For example, if while riding the bike straight ahead, we press on the left bar the front wheel points to the right. The front wheel tracks to the right (sometimes called “out tracking”). So the weight of bike and rider is now to the LEFT of it’s “support” on the ground, the tire contact patches. Because the weight is to the left, the bike leans to the left. It is important to note, for a LEFT turn, we initiate a lean to the left by pressing on the left bar, turning the front wheel to the RIGHT. This is often referred to as COUNTERSTEERING: a turn to the left initiated by turning the front wheel to the right." Yeah, countersteering. Push left - go left. Push right - go right. Thank you. Not the same thing. You don't puch left to go left - you push left to maintain stability in the turn. Not the same thing. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:44 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com