Twin engine docking
 

Don White wrote:
"John H." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:05:08 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:

"Joe" wrote in message
link.net...
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and
how
it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude
200's.

-When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when
maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm
having
a
hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!!
So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that
effort
and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing
that
if it's actually easier to use the engines.

ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
Think in terms of a bicycle handlebar.........turn left and your left
hand
(port engine controls) pulls down (reverse) or towards you on the
handlebar,
right hand (starboard engine) up (forward) or away from you......turn
right
and your left hand pushes up (forward on the port engine) and your right
hand down (reverse on the starboard engine)..........all the time with
both
engines in idle and the wheel in the forward (straight ahead position)
and
not touching the wheel.

When I would stern in with our larger boat (with twins) I would slowly
go
past the slip (on the starboard side) while centering the wheel and
engines
at idle, put port in reverse while bumping starboard in and out of
forward
or reverse as I needed to adjust my position. When finalizing the
approach
and parallel to the slip I would nudge both engines in and then out of
forward to stop the boats reverse progress.

This worked for me.
This worked for me

Not to be picky, but if you're going at any speed on your bicycle and
pull
the left handlebar towards you, you will turn right.

Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.

Oh my! You sniffin' the wife's nail polish again? Shame on you!

No, I've spent many hours teaching prospective motorcycle riders how to
ride.


Lord help us all!



Yeah, really. What a scary thought.

Twin engine docking
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:14:51 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"thunder" wrote in message
...

It might help to explain, pushing left *initiates* a left turn. I think
everyone understands motorcycles turn by leaning, and pushing left is
the
quickest way to get that left-hand lean. If you kept pushing left, you
wouldn't be turning, you would be on the ground, on the left hand side
of
the motorcycle of course.

I found this one paragraph from one of your links quite clarifying.

"If we intentionally move the contact patch line from vertically beneath
the Center of Gravity, the bike will start to lean. For example, if
while
riding the bike straight ahead, we press on the left bar the front wheel
points to the right. The front wheel tracks to the right (sometimes
called "out tracking"). So the weight of bike and rider is now to the
LEFT of it's "support" on the ground, the tire contact patches. Because
the weight is to the left, the bike leans to the left. It is important
to
note, for a LEFT turn, we initiate a lean to the left by pressing on the
left bar, turning the front wheel to the RIGHT. This is often referred
to
as COUNTERSTEERING: a turn to the left initiated by turning the front
wheel to the right."

I agree with the "initiates".

It is an interesting action though and may be readily experienced if you
ride straight and level at a constant speed, then very gently push one of
the bars without leaning or correcting in any other way. Push too hard
and
you *will* have to take corrective action, otherwise you will go down.

Oh, well. Enough of that.

Oh no - your not getting out of this that easily. :)

"This is often referred to as COUNTERSTEERING"

Here is where I think the concepts are confusing.

Just for giggles, I borrowed the dirt bike from the kid across the
street and did some experiments on the straight and the S curves on my
road.

There is no way you can initiate a left hand turn by pushing the left
handlebar forward at speed going straight. It's not possible.

Now, if I lean left, I can control the turn by pushing the handlebar
up to maintain the angle of the turn and the angle of attack to the
curve. Just like a bicycle.

That is entirely different than initiating a left hand turn by pushing
the left handlebar forward.

And in case you are wondering what the neighbors thought of me running
up and down the road at differing speeds on a dirt bike at 6:40 AM and
turning right and left back and forth, don't worry about it. My
neighbors are used to the occasional slice of weirdness from me.

It's cheap entertainment. :)

You'd better be careful on those "kids" toys or you'll be having that hip
replacement earlier than you planned.

Twin engine docking
 

Joe wrote:
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and
how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin
Evinrude 200's.

-When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when
maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having
a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!!
So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort
and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that
if it's actually easier to use the engines.

ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Thanks for the help everyone, I'll use your advice while practicing.
....I'll be staying away from motorcycles until I get this boat thing
figures out too.

Joe

Twin engine docking
 

On May 31, 4:02 am, thunder wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:29:19 -0400, Eisboch wrote:
No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I
haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the
motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing.
Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right.

I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad.
So did I until I tried it.

It might help to explain, pushing left *initiates* a left turn. I think
everyone understands motorcycles turn by leaning, and pushing left is the
quickest way to get that left-hand lean. If you kept pushing left, you
wouldn't be turning, you would be on the ground, on the left hand side of
the motorcycle of course.

I found this one paragraph from one of your links quite clarifying.

"If we intentionally move the contact patch line from vertically beneath
the Center of Gravity, the bike will start to lean. For example, if while
riding the bike straight ahead, we press on the left bar the front wheel
points to the right. The front wheel tracks to the right (sometimes
called "out tracking"). So the weight of bike and rider is now to the
LEFT of it's "support" on the ground, the tire contact patches. Because
the weight is to the left, the bike leans to the left. It is important to
note, for a LEFT turn, we initiate a lean to the left by pressing on the
left bar, turning the front wheel to the RIGHT. This is often referred to
as COUNTERSTEERING: a turn to the left initiated by turning the front
wheel to the right."

So, a slight push of the left handlebar (thereby deflcting the front
wheel
just a smidgen to the right) causes the ike to lean left and it is the
leaning, rather than the steering, that makes the bike turn at speed.

Actually makes sense.

Twin engine docking
 

Joe wrote:
Joe wrote:
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and
how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin
Evinrude 200's.

-When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when
maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm
having a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to
be. ARG!!!
So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that
effort and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to
doing that if it's actually easier to use the engines.

ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Thanks for the help everyone, I'll use your advice while practicing.
...I'll be staying away from motorcycles until I get this boat thing
figures out too.

Joe


Unless you live in a desolate area, the only thing you'll get from a
motorcycle, sooner or later, is a serious accident that might kill you.

The sad thing is that I love motorcycles and would love to own and ride
one again.

Twin engine docking
 

"Joe" wrote in message
link.net...
Joe wrote:
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and
how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin
Evinrude 200's.

-When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when
maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having
a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!!
So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort
and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that
if it's actually easier to use the engines.

ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Thanks for the help everyone, I'll use your advice while practicing.
...I'll be staying away from motorcycles until I get this boat thing
figures out too.

Joe

The main thing to get out of this discussion is to keep your hands off the
wheel once it is centered and you begin your approach......let the
engines/drives do the maneuvering.

And yes, stay away from high speed motorcycles. ;-)

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 14:08:14 GMT, "Jim" wrote:

Why are people so fascinated with recumbent cars?

Because you can recumbent in them?

Twin engine docking
 

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 09:20:46 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:47:40 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:12:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:



That is a ridiculous special case..... if you keep pushing, the
response of the motorcycle will be as above.

This phenomenon is just an exercise in balance control, not steerage.

Check out my reply to Tom, or just go to:

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP163.html

Why would Eisboch and I lie about this?

1) Don't be so sensitive.... nobody is calling you a liar.

2) Maybe I don't understand what you are saying. How can you:

a) Be moving
b) push on a right handlebar, causing it to move a little
c) continue pushing on the handlebar
d) have the handlebar not continue moving forward or stay in position
in the direction it is pushed, thus not moving the tire to the left
e) hence, not causing the motorcycle to turn left?

If you are moving at speed and do what you describe, you will move the
front tire to the left, but you will be in a right hand turn or sliding on
the pavement. Put on some leathers, borrow someone's bike, and try it!

Now, if you are saying that this has something to do with a brief push
on the handlebar and an ensuing off-balance condition causing a lean,
which then causes a turn, I understand that!

A brief push will cause the bike to lean in the direction of the turn and
then turn, if the push is continued. If the push is too hard for too long,
you will end up on the ground, on your left side.

If so, I return to my original position that this special case is way
more about understanding balance on a motorcycle than it has with
steerage. Assuming the given that *any* lean on a motorcycle will
cause a turn.

3) Somewhere, I lost the connection between this phenomenon and
docking?

JimH used an analogy of turning a bicycle when explaining how to dock a
boat. His analogy was backwards.

Go check out the site I gave Tom. It explains countersteering when riding
a
two-wheeled vehicle with a raked front end.

You keep talking about "at speed". Just what is the speed you're referring
to?

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:30:34 -0500, John H.
wrote:

If it weren't for all of those people that "just can't see
motorcycles....."

I'm glad you laid the blame where it may have belonged.

I blame Canada.

Or Nebraska.

Twin engine docking
 

"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 09:20:46 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:47:40 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:12:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:



That is a ridiculous special case..... if you keep pushing, the
response of the motorcycle will be as above.

This phenomenon is just an exercise in balance control, not steerage.

Check out my reply to Tom, or just go to:

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP163.html

Why would Eisboch and I lie about this?

1) Don't be so sensitive.... nobody is calling you a liar.

2) Maybe I don't understand what you are saying. How can you:

a) Be moving
b) push on a right handlebar, causing it to move a little
c) continue pushing on the handlebar
d) have the handlebar not continue moving forward or stay in position
in the direction it is pushed, thus not moving the tire to the left
e) hence, not causing the motorcycle to turn left?

If you are moving at speed and do what you describe, you will move the
front tire to the left, but you will be in a right hand turn or sliding
on
the pavement. Put on some leathers, borrow someone's bike, and try it!

Now, if you are saying that this has something to do with a brief push
on the handlebar and an ensuing off-balance condition causing a lean,
which then causes a turn, I understand that!

A brief push will cause the bike to lean in the direction of the turn and
then turn, if the push is continued. If the push is too hard for too
long,
you will end up on the ground, on your left side.

If so, I return to my original position that this special case is way
more about understanding balance on a motorcycle than it has with
steerage. Assuming the given that *any* lean on a motorcycle will
cause a turn.

3) Somewhere, I lost the connection between this phenomenon and
docking?

JimH used an analogy of turning a bicycle when explaining how to dock a
boat. His analogy was backwards.

Go check out the site I gave Tom. It explains countersteering when riding
a
two-wheeled vehicle with a raked front end.

You keep talking about "at speed". Just what is the speed you're
referring to?


This is just too funny. There is minimal *speed* involved with docking and
bicycle riding. JohnH insists on trying to use high speed motorcycle riding
as his justification that I have it all wrong in my analogy.

From what I have been able to see in this thread, the old man is starting
to act very *Kevinesque* in that he refuses to drop it and admit when *he*
was wrong.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 09:20:46 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:47:40 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:12:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:



That is a ridiculous special case..... if you keep pushing, the
response of the motorcycle will be as above.

This phenomenon is just an exercise in balance control, not steerage.

Check out my reply to Tom, or just go to:

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP163.html

Why would Eisboch and I lie about this?

1) Don't be so sensitive.... nobody is calling you a liar.

2) Maybe I don't understand what you are saying. How can you:

a) Be moving
b) push on a right handlebar, causing it to move a little
c) continue pushing on the handlebar
d) have the handlebar not continue moving forward or stay in position
in the direction it is pushed, thus not moving the tire to the left
e) hence, not causing the motorcycle to turn left?

If you are moving at speed and do what you describe, you will move the
front tire to the left, but you will be in a right hand turn or sliding on
the pavement. Put on some leathers, borrow someone's bike, and try it!

Now, if you are saying that this has something to do with a brief push
on the handlebar and an ensuing off-balance condition causing a lean,
which then causes a turn, I understand that!

A brief push will cause the bike to lean in the direction of the turn and
then turn, if the push is continued. If the push is too hard for too long,
you will end up on the ground, on your left side.

If so, I return to my original position that this special case is way
more about understanding balance on a motorcycle than it has with
steerage. Assuming the given that *any* lean on a motorcycle will
cause a turn.

3) Somewhere, I lost the connection between this phenomenon and
docking?

JimH used an analogy of turning a bicycle when explaining how to dock a
boat. His analogy was backwards.

Go check out the site I gave Tom. It explains countersteering when riding a
two-wheeled vehicle with a raked front end.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:45:32 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:



No, I've spent many hours teaching prospective motorcycle riders how to
ride.


Lord help us all!


I didn't know any of you sp's believed. That's nice to hear.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:07:00 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:56:32 -0400, HK wrote:

Joe wrote:
Joe wrote:
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and
how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin
Evinrude 200's.

-When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when
maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm
having a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to
be. ARG!!!
So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that
effort and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to
doing that if it's actually easier to use the engines.

ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Thanks for the help everyone, I'll use your advice while practicing.
...I'll be staying away from motorcycles until I get this boat thing
figures out too.

Joe


Unless you live in a desolate area, the only thing you'll get from a
motorcycle, sooner or later, is a serious accident that might kill you.

The sad thing is that I love motorcycles and would love to own and ride
one again.

Amen, due to motorcycles, they just buried one of my students last
month and I took a call from a student that left night class yesterday
and is now facing being out of school for a couple or more weeks with
a broken knee and leg.... pins, screws, etc.

If it weren't for all of those people that "just can't see
motorcycles....."

I'm glad you laid the blame where it may have belonged.

Twin engine docking
 

On 31 May 2007 07:54:31 -0700, Chuck Gould
wrote:

On May 31, 4:02 am, thunder wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:29:19 -0400, Eisboch wrote:
No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I
haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the
motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing.
Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right.

I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad.
So did I until I tried it.

It might help to explain, pushing left *initiates* a left turn. I think
everyone understands motorcycles turn by leaning, and pushing left is the
quickest way to get that left-hand lean. If you kept pushing left, you
wouldn't be turning, you would be on the ground, on the left hand side of
the motorcycle of course.

I found this one paragraph from one of your links quite clarifying.

"If we intentionally move the contact patch line from vertically beneath
the Center of Gravity, the bike will start to lean. For example, if while
riding the bike straight ahead, we press on the left bar the front wheel
points to the right. The front wheel tracks to the right (sometimes
called "out tracking"). So the weight of bike and rider is now to the
LEFT of it's "support" on the ground, the tire contact patches. Because
the weight is to the left, the bike leans to the left. It is important to
note, for a LEFT turn, we initiate a lean to the left by pressing on the
left bar, turning the front wheel to the RIGHT. This is often referred to
as COUNTERSTEERING: a turn to the left initiated by turning the front
wheel to the right."

So, a slight push of the left handlebar (thereby deflcting the front
wheel
just a smidgen to the right) causes the ike to lean left and it is the
leaning, rather than the steering, that makes the bike turn at speed.

Actually makes sense.

But to keep the turn going, pressure must be maintained on the handlebar,
else the bike will right itself.

By Jove, I think you've got it!

Twin engine docking
 

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 12:07:52 -0400, "D.Duck" wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 31 May 2007 09:20:46 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:47:40 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:12:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:



That is a ridiculous special case..... if you keep pushing, the
response of the motorcycle will be as above.

This phenomenon is just an exercise in balance control, not steerage.

Check out my reply to Tom, or just go to:

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP163.html

Why would Eisboch and I lie about this?

1) Don't be so sensitive.... nobody is calling you a liar.

2) Maybe I don't understand what you are saying. How can you:

a) Be moving
b) push on a right handlebar, causing it to move a little
c) continue pushing on the handlebar
d) have the handlebar not continue moving forward or stay in position
in the direction it is pushed, thus not moving the tire to the left
e) hence, not causing the motorcycle to turn left?

If you are moving at speed and do what you describe, you will move the
front tire to the left, but you will be in a right hand turn or sliding
on
the pavement. Put on some leathers, borrow someone's bike, and try it!

Now, if you are saying that this has something to do with a brief push
on the handlebar and an ensuing off-balance condition causing a lean,
which then causes a turn, I understand that!

A brief push will cause the bike to lean in the direction of the turn
and
then turn, if the push is continued. If the push is too hard for too
long,
you will end up on the ground, on your left side.

If so, I return to my original position that this special case is way
more about understanding balance on a motorcycle than it has with
steerage. Assuming the given that *any* lean on a motorcycle will
cause a turn.

3) Somewhere, I lost the connection between this phenomenon and
docking?

JimH used an analogy of turning a bicycle when explaining how to dock a
boat. His analogy was backwards.

Go check out the site I gave Tom. It explains countersteering when
riding
a
two-wheeled vehicle with a raked front end.

You keep talking about "at speed". Just what is the speed you're
referring
to?


Faster than walking, say 15 mph or more. At a slow enough speed, like
walking speed, the rake of the front end makes no difference in turning.
If
you push left, you'll go right, just like a tricycle.

Well thank you very much. I thought I had been steering a bicycle wrong all
these years.

Twin engine docking
 

On May 31, 6:31 am, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:53:43 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I guess you all will have to just go try it. It's due to the gryoscopic
stability of the bike.

I just returned from my morning bike ride on my brandy new mountain
bike. I push the handle bar left, it goes bicycle goes right. I lean
left, the bicycle goes left.

I think, based on this morning's experiments, that this is one of
those Myths (don't bother - I've already submitted it to Mythbusters)
that is based on observation error.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Now .... did you know that helicopters were impossible to fly until
gyroscopic progression was recognized and accounted for in the control of
the rotating airfoils?

Yes.

Somehow boating will tie into this somewhere.....

Pontoons on helicopters. And the CG and Navy fly helicopters.

Ipso Facto - QED - boating thread. :)

Everyone who believes that a bike will turn left when the left
handlebar is pushed foward, do this:
Go down the street, and find a 90 degree left hand turn, just like a
city street. Approach at a normal speed for the turn, push the left
handlebar forward, the right back and tell me what happens.

Twin engine docking
 

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:45:32 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:



No, I've spent many hours teaching prospective motorcycle riders how to
ride.


Lord help us all!


I didn't know any of you *sp's* believed. That's nice to hear.


"sp's" ???

Twin engine docking
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:30:34 -0500, John H.
wrote:

If it weren't for all of those people that "just can't see
motorcycles....."

I'm glad you laid the blame where it may have belonged.

* I blame Canada.*

Or Nebraska.


Don't you mean *thank Canada*?

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 12:07:52 -0400, "D.Duck" wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 31 May 2007 09:20:46 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:47:40 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:12:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:



That is a ridiculous special case..... if you keep pushing, the
response of the motorcycle will be as above.

This phenomenon is just an exercise in balance control, not steerage.

Check out my reply to Tom, or just go to:

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP163.html

Why would Eisboch and I lie about this?

1) Don't be so sensitive.... nobody is calling you a liar.

2) Maybe I don't understand what you are saying. How can you:

a) Be moving
b) push on a right handlebar, causing it to move a little
c) continue pushing on the handlebar
d) have the handlebar not continue moving forward or stay in position
in the direction it is pushed, thus not moving the tire to the left
e) hence, not causing the motorcycle to turn left?

If you are moving at speed and do what you describe, you will move the
front tire to the left, but you will be in a right hand turn or sliding on
the pavement. Put on some leathers, borrow someone's bike, and try it!

Now, if you are saying that this has something to do with a brief push
on the handlebar and an ensuing off-balance condition causing a lean,
which then causes a turn, I understand that!

A brief push will cause the bike to lean in the direction of the turn and
then turn, if the push is continued. If the push is too hard for too long,
you will end up on the ground, on your left side.

If so, I return to my original position that this special case is way
more about understanding balance on a motorcycle than it has with
steerage. Assuming the given that *any* lean on a motorcycle will
cause a turn.

3) Somewhere, I lost the connection between this phenomenon and
docking?

JimH used an analogy of turning a bicycle when explaining how to dock a
boat. His analogy was backwards.

Go check out the site I gave Tom. It explains countersteering when riding
a
two-wheeled vehicle with a raked front end.

You keep talking about "at speed". Just what is the speed you're referring
to?


Faster than walking, say 15 mph or more. At a slow enough speed, like
walking speed, the rake of the front end makes no difference in turning. If
you push left, you'll go right, just like a tricycle.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 16:08:11 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:30:34 -0500, John H.
wrote:

If it weren't for all of those people that "just can't see
motorcycles....."

I'm glad you laid the blame where it may have belonged.

I blame Canada.

Or Nebraska.

I once rode across Nebraska. There was a curve in the road. I had a lot of
time to set up for it. When I got to it, I pushed left and went left. Then
I pushed right to go right. I think we went around one of the few trees in
western Nebraska.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 12:22:28 -0400, "JimH" wrote:



This is just too funny. There is minimal *speed* involved with docking and
bicycle riding. JohnH insists on trying to use high speed motorcycle riding
as his justification that I have it all wrong in my analogy.

From what I have been able to see in this thread, the old man is starting
to act very *Kevinesque* in that he refuses to drop it and admit when *he*
was wrong.



Jimmie, racing has nothing to do with countersteering.

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP163.html

Stay away from motorcycles and bicycles, especially if you are in an
emergency situation, unless you're walking the bike of course.

Twin engine docking
 

"basskisser" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 31, 6:31 am, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:53:43 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I guess you all will have to just go try it. It's due to the gryoscopic
stability of the bike.

I just returned from my morning bike ride on my brandy new mountain
bike. I push the handle bar left, it goes bicycle goes right. I lean
left, the bicycle goes left.

I think, based on this morning's experiments, that this is one of
those Myths (don't bother - I've already submitted it to Mythbusters)
that is based on observation error.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Now .... did you know that helicopters were impossible to fly until
gyroscopic progression was recognized and accounted for in the control
of
the rotating airfoils?

Yes.

Somehow boating will tie into this somewhere.....

Pontoons on helicopters. And the CG and Navy fly helicopters.

Ipso Facto - QED - boating thread. :)

Everyone who believes that a bike will turn left when the left
handlebar is pushed foward, do this:
Go down the street, and find a 90 degree left hand turn, just like a
city street. Approach at a normal speed for the turn, push the left
handlebar forward, the right back and tell me what happens.

I missed the turn.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 12:40:30 -0400, "D.Duck" wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 31 May 2007 12:07:52 -0400, "D.Duck" wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 09:20:46 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:47:40 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:12:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:



That is a ridiculous special case..... if you keep pushing, the
response of the motorcycle will be as above.

This phenomenon is just an exercise in balance control, not steerage.

Check out my reply to Tom, or just go to:

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP163.html

Why would Eisboch and I lie about this?

1) Don't be so sensitive.... nobody is calling you a liar.

2) Maybe I don't understand what you are saying. How can you:

a) Be moving
b) push on a right handlebar, causing it to move a little
c) continue pushing on the handlebar
d) have the handlebar not continue moving forward or stay in position
in the direction it is pushed, thus not moving the tire to the left
e) hence, not causing the motorcycle to turn left?

If you are moving at speed and do what you describe, you will move the
front tire to the left, but you will be in a right hand turn or sliding
on
the pavement. Put on some leathers, borrow someone's bike, and try it!

Now, if you are saying that this has something to do with a brief push
on the handlebar and an ensuing off-balance condition causing a lean,
which then causes a turn, I understand that!

A brief push will cause the bike to lean in the direction of the turn
and
then turn, if the push is continued. If the push is too hard for too
long,
you will end up on the ground, on your left side.

If so, I return to my original position that this special case is way
more about understanding balance on a motorcycle than it has with
steerage. Assuming the given that *any* lean on a motorcycle will
cause a turn.

3) Somewhere, I lost the connection between this phenomenon and
docking?

JimH used an analogy of turning a bicycle when explaining how to dock a
boat. His analogy was backwards.

Go check out the site I gave Tom. It explains countersteering when
riding
a
two-wheeled vehicle with a raked front end.

You keep talking about "at speed". Just what is the speed you're
referring
to?


Faster than walking, say 15 mph or more. At a slow enough speed, like
walking speed, the rake of the front end makes no difference in turning.
If
you push left, you'll go right, just like a tricycle.

Well thank you very much. I thought I had been steering a bicycle wrong all
these years.


No, like most of us, including me, you probably just didn't pay attention
to what was actually happening. I didn't realize I was 'countersteering' a
motorcycle until I took a rider's course. I'd been riding a motorcycle for
several years, but took the course with my wife before we bought her a
bike.

Twin engine docking
 

On 31 May 2007 10:11:02 -0700, basskisser wrote:

On May 31, 6:31 am, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:53:43 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I guess you all will have to just go try it. It's due to the gryoscopic
stability of the bike.

I just returned from my morning bike ride on my brandy new mountain
bike. I push the handle bar left, it goes bicycle goes right. I lean
left, the bicycle goes left.

I think, based on this morning's experiments, that this is one of
those Myths (don't bother - I've already submitted it to Mythbusters)
that is based on observation error.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Now .... did you know that helicopters were impossible to fly until
gyroscopic progression was recognized and accounted for in the control of
the rotating airfoils?

Yes.

Somehow boating will tie into this somewhere.....

Pontoons on helicopters. And the CG and Navy fly helicopters.

Ipso Facto - QED - boating thread. :)

Everyone who believes that a bike will turn left when the left
handlebar is pushed foward, do this:
Go down the street, and find a 90 degree left hand turn, just like a
city street. Approach at a normal speed for the turn, push the left
handlebar forward, the right back and tell me what happens.

The bike turns left.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 14:16:20 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:45:32 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:



No, I've spent many hours teaching prospective motorcycle riders how to
ride.


Lord help us all!


I didn't know any of you *sp's* believed. That's nice to hear.


"sp's" ???


Ask your idol.

Twin engine docking
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 14:08:14 GMT, "Jim" wrote:

Why are people so fascinated with recumbent cars?

Because you can recumbent in them?
Of course, but I prefer a couch or bed to recumbent in.

Twin engine docking
 

"John H." wrote in message
...


No, like most of us, including me, you probably just didn't pay attention
to what was actually happening. I didn't realize I was 'countersteering' a
motorcycle until I took a rider's course. I'd been riding a motorcycle for
several years, but took the course with my wife before we bought her a
bike.


Did you take this 'course' before ...or after.. you taught others?

Twin engine docking
 

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 14:16:20 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:45:32 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:



No, I've spent many hours teaching prospective motorcycle riders how
to
ride.


Lord help us all!


I didn't know any of you *sp's* believed. That's nice to hear.


"sp's" ???


Ask your idol.


I thought the church preached against 'false idols'. You should know better
than that. BTW what's with this 'American Idol' and 'Canadian Idol'.
I certainly don't idolize any singer/actor..whatever.

Twin engine docking
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"John H." wrote in message
...


No, like most of us, including me, you probably just didn't pay attention
to what was actually happening. I didn't realize I was 'countersteering'
a
motorcycle until I took a rider's course. I'd been riding a motorcycle
for
several years, but took the course with my wife before we bought her a
bike.


Did you take this 'course' before ...or after.. you taught others?


It is obvious that John Herring needs to take a toddlers bicycle training
course as he still does not get it.

I hope the old man did not teach his grandchildren, great grandchildren and
great, great grandchildren how to ride a bicycle. If he did, they all must
have spent time in the emergency ward at the local hospital.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 17:54:10 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .


No, like most of us, including me, you probably just didn't pay attention
to what was actually happening. I didn't realize I was 'countersteering' a
motorcycle until I took a rider's course. I'd been riding a motorcycle for
several years, but took the course with my wife before we bought her a
bike.


Did you take this 'course' before ...or after.. you taught others?


Well before. I took the instructor's course while in Germany, several years
later. Why do you ask?

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 17:57:24 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 31 May 2007 14:16:20 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:45:32 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:



No, I've spent many hours teaching prospective motorcycle riders how
to
ride.


Lord help us all!


I didn't know any of you *sp's* believed. That's nice to hear.


"sp's" ???


Ask your idol.


I thought the church preached against 'false idols'. You should know better
than that. BTW what's with this 'American Idol' and 'Canadian Idol'.
I certainly don't idolize any singer/actor..whatever.


He's not *my* idol. But I think you've got the 'false' part correct.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 17:08:31 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"Don White" wrote in message
.. .

"John H." wrote in message
...


No, like most of us, including me, you probably just didn't pay attention
to what was actually happening. I didn't realize I was 'countersteering'
a
motorcycle until I took a rider's course. I'd been riding a motorcycle
for
several years, but took the course with my wife before we bought her a
bike.


Did you take this 'course' before ...or after.. you taught others?


It is obvious that John Herring needs to take a toddlers bicycle training
course as he still does not get it.

I hope the old man did not teach his grandchildren, great grandchildren and
great, great grandchildren how to ride a bicycle. If he did, they all must
have spent time in the emergency ward at the local hospital.


You're right, neither Eisbock nor I know of what we speak.

Of course, the Motorcycle Safety Foundation, and anyone else who knows
anything about motorcycles, is wrong also.

Twin engine docking
 

basskisser wrote:


Everyone who believes that a bike will turn left when the left
handlebar is pushed foward, do this:
Go down the street, and find a 90 degree left hand turn, just like a
city street. Approach at a normal speed for the turn, push the left
handlebar forward, the right back and tell me what happens.


"the right back and tell me what happens."? Have you been sampling your
crops or are you just stupid?

Twin engine docking
 

Joe wrote:
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and
how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin
Evinrude 200's.

-When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when
maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having
a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!!
So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort
and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that
if it's actually easier to use the engines.

ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.


Wow - what a huge thread ... motorcycle analogies not withstanding.

I recommend you (and everyone who pilots a boat) pick up a copy of "Boat
Docking" by Charles T. Low. Lookie he http://www.boatdocking.com/

Charles used to be a regular poster here - was always happy to share his
wisdom. The book is excellent.

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"

Twin engine docking
 

Great book. I have a copy. Highly recommended.

--Mike

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and
how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin
Evinrude 200's.

-When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when
maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having
a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!!
So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort
and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that
if it's actually easier to use the engines.

ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.


Wow - what a huge thread ... motorcycle analogies not withstanding.

I recommend you (and everyone who pilots a boat) pick up a copy of "Boat
Docking" by Charles T. Low. Lookie he http://www.boatdocking.com/

Charles used to be a regular poster here - was always happy to share his
wisdom. The book is excellent.

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"

Twin engine docking
 

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...


Wow - what a huge thread ... motorcycle analogies not withstanding.

I recommend you (and everyone who pilots a boat) pick up a copy of "Boat
Docking" by Charles T. Low. Lookie he http://www.boatdocking.com/

Charles used to be a regular poster here - was always happy to share his
wisdom. The book is excellent.


I never knew Charles rode a motorcycle!

Just kidding ... he's a cool guy.

Eisboch