Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:39:31 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:31:41 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:53:43 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I guess you all will have to just go try it. It's due to the gryoscopic
stability of the bike.

I just returned from my morning bike ride on my brandy new mountain
bike. I push the handle bar left, it goes bicycle goes right. I lean
left, the bicycle goes left.

I think, based on this morning's experiments, that this is one of
those Myths (don't bother - I've already submitted it to Mythbusters)
that is based on observation error.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Now .... did you know that helicopters were impossible to fly until
gyroscopic progression was recognized and accounted for in the control of
the rotating airfoils?

Yes.

Somehow boating will tie into this somewhere.....

Pontoons on helicopters. And the CG and Navy fly helicopters.

Ipso Facto - QED - boating thread. :)

You gotta have some speed. Try it with one hand, on pavement, with speed.
If you push left you will go left, unless you've figured out a way to go
right while the bike is leaning far to the left!

Sorry John - didn't work that way and never has.

I still say those who are on the left/left side of the argument are
confusing two seperate issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Twin engine docking
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...


Sorry John - didn't work that way and never has.

I still say those who are on the left/left side of the argument are
confusing two seperate issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)


Some people should just stick with 4-wheeled Corvettes.

Eisboch :-)

Twin engine docking
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:39:31 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:31:41 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:53:43 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I guess you all will have to just go try it. It's due to the gryoscopic
stability of the bike.

I just returned from my morning bike ride on my brandy new mountain
bike. I push the handle bar left, it goes bicycle goes right. I lean
left, the bicycle goes left.

I think, based on this morning's experiments, that this is one of
those Myths (don't bother - I've already submitted it to Mythbusters)
that is based on observation error.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Now .... did you know that helicopters were impossible to fly until
gyroscopic progression was recognized and accounted for in the control
of
the rotating airfoils?

Yes.

Somehow boating will tie into this somewhere.....

Pontoons on helicopters. And the CG and Navy fly helicopters.

Ipso Facto - QED - boating thread. :)

You gotta have some speed. Try it with one hand, on pavement, with speed.
If you push left you will go left, unless you've figured out a way to go
right while the bike is leaning far to the left!

Sorry John - didn't work that way and never has.

I still say those who are on the left/left side of the argument are
confusing two seperate issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

To think this all started with a *bicycle* handle bar analogy.....how high
speeds and motorcycles got into the mix is beyond me. ;-)

Twin engine docking
 

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:39:31 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:31:41 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:53:43 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I guess you all will have to just go try it. It's due to the
gryoscopic
stability of the bike.

I just returned from my morning bike ride on my brandy new mountain
bike. I push the handle bar left, it goes bicycle goes right. I lean
left, the bicycle goes left.

I think, based on this morning's experiments, that this is one of
those Myths (don't bother - I've already submitted it to Mythbusters)
that is based on observation error.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Now .... did you know that helicopters were impossible to fly until
gyroscopic progression was recognized and accounted for in the control
of
the rotating airfoils?

Yes.

Somehow boating will tie into this somewhere.....

Pontoons on helicopters. And the CG and Navy fly helicopters.

Ipso Facto - QED - boating thread. :)

You gotta have some speed. Try it with one hand, on pavement, with speed.
If you push left you will go left, unless you've figured out a way to go
right while the bike is leaning far to the left!

Sorry John - didn't work that way and never has.

I still say those who are on the left/left side of the argument are
confusing two seperate issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

To think this all started with a *bicycle* handle bar analogy.....how high
speeds and motorcycles got into the mix is beyond me. ;-)


I confess.

Eisboch

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:54:28 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .


Sorry John - didn't work that way and never has.

I still say those who are on the left/left side of the argument are
confusing two seperate issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Some people should just stick with 4-wheeled Corvettes.

ROTFL!!

Damn straight.

Hey, I'm only here for the discussion. :)

Besides, I'm not a motorcycle person. Hate the things actually.

I regard motorcycle riders in the same vein as PWC riders.

I won't say which vein that is. :)

Twin engine docking
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:39:31 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:31:41 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:53:43 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I guess you all will have to just go try it. It's due to the
gryoscopic
stability of the bike.

I just returned from my morning bike ride on my brandy new mountain
bike. I push the handle bar left, it goes bicycle goes right. I lean
left, the bicycle goes left.

I think, based on this morning's experiments, that this is one of
those Myths (don't bother - I've already submitted it to Mythbusters)
that is based on observation error.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Now .... did you know that helicopters were impossible to fly until
gyroscopic progression was recognized and accounted for in the control
of
the rotating airfoils?

Yes.

Somehow boating will tie into this somewhere.....

Pontoons on helicopters. And the CG and Navy fly helicopters.

Ipso Facto - QED - boating thread. :)

You gotta have some speed. Try it with one hand, on pavement, with
speed.
If you push left you will go left, unless you've figured out a way to go
right while the bike is leaning far to the left!

Sorry John - didn't work that way and never has.

I still say those who are on the left/left side of the argument are
confusing two seperate issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

To think this all started with a *bicycle* handle bar analogy.....how
high speeds and motorcycles got into the mix is beyond me. ;-)


I confess.

Eisboch


You are forgiven. Go and sin no more brother Eisboch.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:56:03 -0400, "JimH"
wrote:

To think this all started with a *bicycle* handle bar analogy.....how high
speeds and motorcycles got into the mix is beyond me. ;-)

It's the nature of Usenet.

An endless and fascinating virtual world.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:56:48 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I confess.

Hmmmm - kind of open ended confession.

Did you happen to know Jimmy Hoffa? :)

Twin engine docking
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:54:28 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..


Sorry John - didn't work that way and never has.

I still say those who are on the left/left side of the argument are
confusing two seperate issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Some people should just stick with 4-wheeled Corvettes.

ROTFL!!

Damn straight.

Hey, I'm only here for the discussion. :)

Besides, I'm not a motorcycle person. Hate the things actually.

I regard motorcycle riders in the same vein as PWC riders.

I won't say which vein that is. :)

I was with a customer yesterday who just purchased an '07 Vette. The thing
is keyless and ignition is controlled by a proximity fob. He says the car
rides nicer than his new Silverado and is like night and day (ride wise)
compared to the '02 Vette he traded in.

Twin engine docking
 

On Wed, 30 May 2007 19:47:33 -0400, "D.Duck" wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
rthlink.net...
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and
how
it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude
200's.

-When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when
maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having
a
hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!!
So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort
and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that
if it's actually easier to use the engines.

ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Think in terms of a bicycle handlebar.........turn left and your left hand
(port engine controls) pulls down (reverse) or towards you on the
handlebar,
right hand (starboard engine) up (forward) or away from you......turn
right
and your left hand pushes up (forward on the port engine) and your right
hand down (reverse on the starboard engine)..........all the time with
both
engines in idle and the wheel in the forward (straight ahead position) and
not touching the wheel.

When I would stern in with our larger boat (with twins) I would slowly go
past the slip (on the starboard side) while centering the wheel and
engines
at idle, put port in reverse while bumping starboard in and out of forward
or reverse as I needed to adjust my position. When finalizing the
approach
and parallel to the slip I would nudge both engines in and then out of
forward to stop the boats reverse progress.

This worked for me.
This worked for me


Not to be picky, but if you're going at any speed on your bicycle and pull
the left handlebar towards you, you will turn right.

Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle.

Huh?


Go try it! Just so you're not influenced, do it with only one hand. Then
you'll get the idea.

Twin engine docking
 

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


"D.Duck" wrote in message
m...

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:



Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.

Huh?


He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the
bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to
the right.

Try it sometime.

Eisboch


For some, that idea is very hard to conceptualize. It then catches up to
them in an emergency situation.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 00:20:34 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"D.Duck" wrote in message
om...

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:

Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.

Huh?

He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the
bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to
the right.

Try it sometime.

Ok I just did.

Pushing the left handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the right.

Pushing the right handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the left.

How much speed did you have? Remember, I said 'at speed', not at a walk or
while standing still.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 00:20:34 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"D.Duck" wrote in message
om...

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:

Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.

Huh?

He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the
bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to
the right.

Try it sometime.

Ok I just did.

Pushing the left handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the right.

Pushing the right handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the left.

PS And, you're right. The movement of the front wheel to the right causes
the bike to lean to the left, which causes the bike to turn to the left.

Twin engine docking
 

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:37:52 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"D.Duck" wrote in message
news:z4ednS8WPaSOkMPbnZ2dnUVZ_uSgnZ2d@giganew s.com...



Lookie her:

http://www.rider-ed.com/tips/motorcyclestability.htm

Eisboch


Meant to type "Lookie here" .... anyway, the link describes gyroscopic
progression which is why JohnH was correct.

Eisboch


It took a long time to convince Motorcycle Safety Foundation students of
the same thing. The trick was to have them steer with one hand, then the
push right - go right idea begins to stick.

Twin engine docking
 

On 30 May 2007 18:19:01 -0700, Chuck Gould
wrote:

On May 30, 5:20?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:







"D.Duck" wrote in message
m...

"John H." wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:

Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.

Huh?

He's correct. ame on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the
bike will make a left turn. ush the right handle forward, bike turns to
the right.

Try it sometime.

Ok I just did.

Pushing the left handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the right.

Pushing the right handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the left.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Did you take into account the shifting of your weight in order to
"push"
(down?) on the left handle bar?

The shifting of weight will lower the center of gravity, enabling a sharper
turn with less lean angle. I think Tom was just experimenting with a bike
at rest. If he had any speed on the bike, he'd be on the ground.

Twin engine docking
 

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:27:35 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"Eisboch" wrote in message
m...

"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:



Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.

Huh?


He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the
bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to
the right.

Try it sometime.

Eisboch


Hmmm. Actually push the left side of the handle bar away from you while
pulling the right side towards you and you go right.



Yes, if you're at walking speed. Now get up to 15mph and see what happens.

Twin engine docking
 

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:29:19 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


"JimH" wrote in message
...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH"
wrote:



Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.

Huh?


He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the
bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to
the right.

Try it sometime.

Eisboch


Hmmm. Actually push the left side of the handle bar away from you while
pulling the right side towards you and you go right.


No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I haven't
tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the motorcycle
to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing. Push on the
right ... bike will turn towards the right.

I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad. So
did I until I tried it.

Eisboch


The geometry of the front end of a bicycle is very similar to that of a
motorcycle. The steering principles are the same - at speed, not at rest or
at a walking speed.

Try it, you'll like it. It's also one reason kids have a hard time
transitioning from a tricycle to a bicycle.

Twin engine docking
 

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:00:10 -0400, "D.Duck" wrote:


"Eisboch" wrote in message
m...

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH"
wrote:



Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.

Huh?


He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the
bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns
to the right.

Try it sometime.

Eisboch


Hmmm. Actually push the left side of the handle bar away from you while
pulling the right side towards you and you go right.


No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I haven't
tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the motorcycle
to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing. Push on the
right ... bike will turn towards the right.

I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad.
So did I until I tried it.

Eisboch

I've never ridden a motorcycle. But if I'm on my bicycle and I push on the
left hand handle bar, or pull on the right one (rotating the handle bars
clockwise as viewed by a bird flying by) and the bike turns right.

I still cannot comprehend how adding a motor causes the opposite.


Get the bike up to speed. Take your right hand off the handlebar, and do
the same thing. You will go left, as the bike will lean that way as soon as
you push on the left bar.

If you don't realize this, don't ride your bike in touchy situations where
you may have to suddenly swerve.

Twin engine docking
 

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:27:22 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"D.Duck" wrote in message
m...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH"
wrote:



Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.

Huh?


He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward,
the bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike
turns to the right.

Try it sometime.

Eisboch


Hmmm. Actually push the left side of the handle bar away from you
while pulling the right side towards you and you go right.


No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I
haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the
motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing.
Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right.

I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad.
So did I until I tried it.

Eisboch

I've never ridden a motorcycle. But if I'm on my bicycle and I push on
the left hand handle bar, or pull on the right one (rotating the handle
bars clockwise as viewed by a bird flying by) and the bike turns right.

I still cannot comprehend how adding a motor causes the opposite.


Yep. The only exception is with high speed racing motorcycles, bikes or
cars going into turns on a dirt or otherwise slippery track.

I was never talking about those conditions.

Every bicycle I ever used turned right when I pushed the left side of the
handle bar away me. Every motorcycle I ever owned did the same. Thus my
analogy in my original post.

I never thought my original post to this thread would evolve into dirt bike
racing maneuvers or disagreements on how to ride a bicycle.

'nuf said. ;-)


Guess what....you paid no attention to what your hands were doing when the
bike turned.

I believe you're the only one who mentioned dirt bikes, but the principle
is the same.

Twin engine docking
 

On 30 May 2007 18:20:47 -0700, Chuck Gould
wrote:

On May 30, 5:29?pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"JimH" wrote in message

...







"Eisboch" wrote in message
m...

"D.Duck" wrote in message
om...

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH"
wrote:

Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.

Huh?

He's correct. ame on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the
bike will make a left turn. ush the right handle forward, bike turns to
the right.

Try it sometime.

Eisboch

Hmmm. Actually push the left side of the handle bar away from you while
pulling the right side towards you and you go right.

No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I haven't
tried it) pushing the ,eft handle away from you will cause the motorcycle
to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing. ush on the
right ... bike will turn towards the right.

I can see several people are having trouble with this. on't feel bad. o
did I until I tried it.

Eisboch- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think it has to do with the shifting of weight to the side you are
"pushing" on.

No it doesn't. Try it. Shifting the weight just enables you to turn without
as much bike lean.

Twin engine docking
 

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:28:24 -0400, "Steve P" wrote:


He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the
bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns
to the right.

Try it sometime.

Eisboch


Hmmm. Actually push the left side of the handle bar away from you while
pulling the right side towards you and you go right.


No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I haven't
tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the motorcycle
to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing. Push on the
right ... bike will turn towards the right.

I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad.
So did I until I tried it.

Eisboch

Okay, I'll vouch for Eisboch. Except I always thougnt of it as push on the
hand grip that is closest to the pavement and you'll turn in that more
sharply in that direction... and if for some reason the handlebars should
snap back in the opposite direction you will be launched @ss over tea kettle
over said handlebars.

Steve P.


What you've said is correct. If you're in a turn, and you see you've not
turned sharply enough, pushing on the handlebar closest to the pavement
(the inside of the turn) will cause the bike to turn more sharply.

What will cause handlebars to 'snap back' is often referred to as 'high
siding'. This is caused by releasing the rear brake while the bike is in a
rear-wheel skid. The sudden resumption of traction will cause the bike to
suddenly right itself, often too far.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:02:11 -0000, thunder wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:29:19 -0400, Eisboch wrote:


No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I
haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the
motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing.
Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right.

I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad.
So did I until I tried it.

It might help to explain, pushing left *initiates* a left turn. I think
everyone understands motorcycles turn by leaning, and pushing left is the
quickest way to get that left-hand lean. If you kept pushing left, you
wouldn't be turning, you would be on the ground, on the left hand side of
the motorcycle of course.

I found this one paragraph from one of your links quite clarifying.

"If we intentionally move the contact patch line from vertically beneath
the Center of Gravity, the bike will start to lean. For example, if while
riding the bike straight ahead, we press on the left bar the front wheel
points to the right. The front wheel tracks to the right (sometimes
called “out tracking”). So the weight of bike and rider is now to the
LEFT of it’s “support” on the ground, the tire contact patches. Because
the weight is to the left, the bike leans to the left. It is important to
note, for a LEFT turn, we initiate a lean to the left by pressing on the
left bar, turning the front wheel to the RIGHT. This is often referred to
as COUNTERSTEERING: a turn to the left initiated by turning the front
wheel to the right."

Yeah, countersteering. Push left - go left. Push right - go right.

Thank you.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:31:41 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:53:43 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I guess you all will have to just go try it. It's due to the gryoscopic
stability of the bike.

I just returned from my morning bike ride on my brandy new mountain
bike. I push the handle bar left, it goes bicycle goes right. I lean
left, the bicycle goes left.

I think, based on this morning's experiments, that this is one of
those Myths (don't bother - I've already submitted it to Mythbusters)
that is based on observation error.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Now .... did you know that helicopters were impossible to fly until
gyroscopic progression was recognized and accounted for in the control of
the rotating airfoils?

Yes.

Somehow boating will tie into this somewhere.....

Pontoons on helicopters. And the CG and Navy fly helicopters.

Ipso Facto - QED - boating thread. :)

You gotta have some speed. Try it with one hand, on pavement, with speed.
If you push left you will go left, unless you've figured out a way to go
right while the bike is leaning far to the left!

Twin engine docking
 

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:05:08 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
rthlink.net...
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and
how
it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude
200's.

-When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when
maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm having
a
hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!!
So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that effort
and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing that
if it's actually easier to use the engines.

ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Think in terms of a bicycle handlebar.........turn left and your left hand
(port engine controls) pulls down (reverse) or towards you on the
handlebar,
right hand (starboard engine) up (forward) or away from you......turn
right
and your left hand pushes up (forward on the port engine) and your right
hand down (reverse on the starboard engine)..........all the time with
both
engines in idle and the wheel in the forward (straight ahead position) and
not touching the wheel.

When I would stern in with our larger boat (with twins) I would slowly go
past the slip (on the starboard side) while centering the wheel and
engines
at idle, put port in reverse while bumping starboard in and out of forward
or reverse as I needed to adjust my position. When finalizing the
approach
and parallel to the slip I would nudge both engines in and then out of
forward to stop the boats reverse progress.

This worked for me.
This worked for me


Not to be picky, but if you're going at any speed on your bicycle and pull
the left handlebar towards you, you will turn right.

Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a tricycle.


Oh my! You sniffin' the wife's nail polish again? Shame on you!


No, I've spent many hours teaching prospective motorcycle riders how to
ride.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:15:52 -0400, "JimH"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:54:28 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...


Sorry John - didn't work that way and never has.

I still say those who are on the left/left side of the argument are
confusing two seperate issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Some people should just stick with 4-wheeled Corvettes.

ROTFL!!

Damn straight.

Hey, I'm only here for the discussion. :)

Besides, I'm not a motorcycle person. Hate the things actually.

I regard motorcycle riders in the same vein as PWC riders.

I won't say which vein that is. :)

I was with a customer yesterday who just purchased an '07 Vette. The thing
is keyless and ignition is controlled by a proximity fob. He says the car
rides nicer than his new Silverado and is like night and day (ride wise)
compared to the '02 Vette he traded in.

They are very nice and if I could convince Mrs. Wave that I actually
need to purchase one as a long term investment for the kids, I'd be
riding in one right now.

Unfortunately, she ain't buying it.

~~ sigh ~~

Corvettes are the only thing GM ever made worth a damn.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:12:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 00:20:34 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"D.Duck" wrote in message
news:z4ednS8WPaSOkMPbnZ2dnUVZ_uSgnZ2d@giganews. com...

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:

Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.

Huh?

He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the
bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to
the right.

Try it sometime.

Ok I just did.

Pushing the left handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the right.

Pushing the right handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the left.

That is a ridiculous special case..... if you keep pushing, the
response of the motorcycle will be as above.

This phenomenon is just an exercise in balance control, not steerage.

I've never taken a motorcycle course and being cheap enough, I just
might do that.

I want to see this "taught" myself because I agree with you - it's
more about maintaining momentum and angle of attack in a turn than
actually steering.

Twin engine docking
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...

Oh no - your not getting out of this that easily. :)

"This is often referred to as COUNTERSTEERING"

Here is where I think the concepts are confusing.

Just for giggles, I borrowed the dirt bike from the kid across the
street and did some experiments on the straight and the S curves on my
road.

There is no way you can initiate a left hand turn by pushing the left
handlebar forward at speed going straight. It's not possible.

Now, if I lean left, I can control the turn by pushing the handlebar
up to maintain the angle of the turn and the angle of attack to the
curve. Just like a bicycle.

That is entirely different than initiating a left hand turn by pushing
the left handlebar forward.

And in case you are wondering what the neighbors thought of me running
up and down the road at differing speeds on a dirt bike at 6:40 AM and
turning right and left back and forth, don't worry about it. My
neighbors are used to the occasional slice of weirdness from me.

It's cheap entertainment. :)


I'd probably pay to watch you work through this process.......

Twin engine docking
 

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:05:08 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
arthlink.net...
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and
how
it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin Evinrude
200's.

-When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when
maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm
having
a
hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to be. ARG!!!
So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that
effort
and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to doing
that
if it's actually easier to use the engines.

ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Think in terms of a bicycle handlebar.........turn left and your left
hand
(port engine controls) pulls down (reverse) or towards you on the
handlebar,
right hand (starboard engine) up (forward) or away from you......turn
right
and your left hand pushes up (forward on the port engine) and your right
hand down (reverse on the starboard engine)..........all the time with
both
engines in idle and the wheel in the forward (straight ahead position)
and
not touching the wheel.

When I would stern in with our larger boat (with twins) I would slowly
go
past the slip (on the starboard side) while centering the wheel and
engines
at idle, put port in reverse while bumping starboard in and out of
forward
or reverse as I needed to adjust my position. When finalizing the
approach
and parallel to the slip I would nudge both engines in and then out of
forward to stop the boats reverse progress.

This worked for me.
This worked for me


Not to be picky, but if you're going at any speed on your bicycle and
pull
the left handlebar towards you, you will turn right.

Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.


Oh my! You sniffin' the wife's nail polish again? Shame on you!


No, I've spent many hours teaching prospective motorcycle riders how to
ride.


Lord help us all!

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:34:55 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:



Oh no - your not getting out of this that easily. :)

"This is often referred to as COUNTERSTEERING"

Here is where I think the concepts are confusing.

Just for giggles, I borrowed the dirt bike from the kid across the
street and did some experiments on the straight and the S curves on my
road.

There is no way you can initiate a left hand turn by pushing the left
handlebar forward at speed going straight. It's not possible.

Now, if I lean left, I can control the turn by pushing the handlebar
up to maintain the angle of the turn and the angle of attack to the
curve. Just like a bicycle.

You, sir, are wrong. But, that's OK. I didn't take into account that the
kid's dirt bike was a tricycle. Stop the leaning, which confuses the issue.
Pretend you are a sack of potatoes, i.e., keep your body on the same plane
as the bike. Now, at speed, take your right hand off the bar and slightly
push forward with your left hand. You will go left, unless you have a
negative rake angle on the bike. (For more on this, go to:

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP163.html

Or, it could be that a lot of people in the 'know' are just lying to you.
If, however, you are ever in a position where you must make a sudden
swerve, it helps to know how to do it. Guesswork causes people to go off
the edge of the road or hit the automobile they were trying to avoid.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:12:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:



That is a ridiculous special case..... if you keep pushing, the
response of the motorcycle will be as above.

This phenomenon is just an exercise in balance control, not steerage.

Check out my reply to Tom, or just go to:

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP163.html

Why would Eisboch and I lie about this?

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:35:58 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:23:30 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:37:52 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"D.Duck" wrote in message
news:z4ednS8WPaSOkMPbnZ2dnUVZ_uSgnZ2d@gigan ews.com...

Lookie her:

http://www.rider-ed.com/tips/motorcyclestability.htm

Meant to type "Lookie here" .... anyway, the link describes gyroscopic
progression which is why JohnH was correct.

It took a long time to convince Motorcycle Safety Foundation students of
the same thing. The trick was to have them steer with one hand, then the
push right - go right idea begins to stick.

Take another look at that picture on the "lookee here" post.

See anything interesting?

If you are referring to the fact that the front tire seems to be pointing
to the right, yes. It is most likely because the driver has pushed the
right bar to get the bike upright or start a right turn.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:38:03 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:


All due respect John, but I was riding and I've been riding bicycles
for a long time - since I was a kid in fact.

As to speed, there is a long hill with a right hand curve that I use
to build speed for a long straight run - that's where I did my
experimenting.

I didn't hit the ground.

OK, then you unknowingly compensated in some other fashion.

Tom, why the hell would I lie about this? Why would the folks at the
Motorcycle Safety Foundation lie about it?

" “Speed Stabilizes the motorcycle” and “press left, lean left, go left”
are two phrases heard by students taking the MRC:RSS rider course. During
the course students may be told to “trust us on this one...it REALLY works”
Well, it DOES really work, but during the course there is little time to
explain why speed DOES stabilize the motorcycle and yes, you DO press the
left bar to initiate a turn to the left." (from the 'lookie her' site)

Not knowing is not a criminal offense. Hell, most folks don't know this.
One of my brothers, a Harley rider for years, didn't know it. Another, who
was a motorcycle cop, knows it very well!

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:39:33 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:37:28 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:02:11 -0000, thunder wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:29:19 -0400, Eisboch wrote:


No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I
haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the
motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing.
Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right.

I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad.
So did I until I tried it.

It might help to explain, pushing left *initiates* a left turn. I think
everyone understands motorcycles turn by leaning, and pushing left is the
quickest way to get that left-hand lean. If you kept pushing left, you
wouldn't be turning, you would be on the ground, on the left hand side of
the motorcycle of course.

I found this one paragraph from one of your links quite clarifying.

"If we intentionally move the contact patch line from vertically beneath
the Center of Gravity, the bike will start to lean. For example, if while
riding the bike straight ahead, we press on the left bar the front wheel
points to the right. The front wheel tracks to the right (sometimes
called “out tracking”). So the weight of bike and rider is now to the
LEFT of it’s “support” on the ground, the tire contact patches. Because
the weight is to the left, the bike leans to the left. It is important to
note, for a LEFT turn, we initiate a lean to the left by pressing on the
left bar, turning the front wheel to the RIGHT. This is often referred to
as COUNTERSTEERING: a turn to the left initiated by turning the front
wheel to the right."

Yeah, countersteering. Push left - go left. Push right - go right.

Thank you.

Not the same thing. You don't puch left to go left - you push left
to maintain stability in the turn.

Not the same thing.

No, you push left to initiate a left turn. You then push left to go more
sharply, or let up to turn less sharply. If you're in a left turn and want
to quickly go right, then you'll push hard on the right bar.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:41:20 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:39:31 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:31:41 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:53:43 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I guess you all will have to just go try it. It's due to the gryoscopic
stability of the bike.

I just returned from my morning bike ride on my brandy new mountain
bike. I push the handle bar left, it goes bicycle goes right. I lean
left, the bicycle goes left.

I think, based on this morning's experiments, that this is one of
those Myths (don't bother - I've already submitted it to Mythbusters)
that is based on observation error.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Now .... did you know that helicopters were impossible to fly until
gyroscopic progression was recognized and accounted for in the control of
the rotating airfoils?

Yes.

Somehow boating will tie into this somewhere.....

Pontoons on helicopters. And the CG and Navy fly helicopters.

Ipso Facto - QED - boating thread. :)

You gotta have some speed. Try it with one hand, on pavement, with speed.
If you push left you will go left, unless you've figured out a way to go
right while the bike is leaning far to the left!

Sorry John - didn't work that way and never has.

I still say those who are on the left/left side of the argument are
confusing two seperate issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

That was Rich. And, it's OK to stick to a wrong story.

But, don't do it in an emergency.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:54:28 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .


Sorry John - didn't work that way and never has.

I still say those who are on the left/left side of the argument are
confusing two seperate issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)


Some people should just stick with 4-wheeled Corvettes.

Eisboch :-)


Amen.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:15:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:54:28 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...


Sorry John - didn't work that way and never has.

I still say those who are on the left/left side of the argument are
confusing two seperate issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Some people should just stick with 4-wheeled Corvettes.

ROTFL!!

Damn straight.

Hey, I'm only here for the discussion. :)

Besides, I'm not a motorcycle person. Hate the things actually.

I regard motorcycle riders in the same vein as PWC riders.

I won't say which vein that is. :)

I was with a customer yesterday who just purchased an '07 Vette. The thing
is keyless and ignition is controlled by a proximity fob. He says the car
rides nicer than his new Silverado and is like night and day (ride wise)
compared to the '02 Vette he traded in.


Cadillac has had that for a couple years now.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:56:03 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:39:31 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:31:41 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:53:43 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I guess you all will have to just go try it. It's due to the gryoscopic
stability of the bike.

I just returned from my morning bike ride on my brandy new mountain
bike. I push the handle bar left, it goes bicycle goes right. I lean
left, the bicycle goes left.

I think, based on this morning's experiments, that this is one of
those Myths (don't bother - I've already submitted it to Mythbusters)
that is based on observation error.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Now .... did you know that helicopters were impossible to fly until
gyroscopic progression was recognized and accounted for in the control
of
the rotating airfoils?

Yes.

Somehow boating will tie into this somewhere.....

Pontoons on helicopters. And the CG and Navy fly helicopters.

Ipso Facto - QED - boating thread. :)

You gotta have some speed. Try it with one hand, on pavement, with speed.
If you push left you will go left, unless you've figured out a way to go
right while the bike is leaning far to the left!

Sorry John - didn't work that way and never has.

I still say those who are on the left/left side of the argument are
confusing two seperate issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

To think this all started with a *bicycle* handle bar analogy.....how high
speeds and motorcycles got into the mix is beyond me. ;-)


Because your analogy was backwards.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 12:45:10 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:12:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 00:20:34 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:07:24 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"D.Duck" wrote in message
news:z4ednS8WPaSOkMPbnZ2dnUVZ_uSgnZ2d@giganews .com...

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 May 2007 18:20:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:

Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Just the opposite of a
tricycle.

Huh?

He's correct. Same on a motorcycle. Push the left handle forward, the
bike will make a left turn. Push the right handle forward, bike turns to
the right.

Try it sometime.

Ok I just did.

Pushing the left handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the right.

Pushing the right handlebar forward moves the front wheel to the left.

That is a ridiculous special case..... if you keep pushing, the
response of the motorcycle will be as above.

This phenomenon is just an exercise in balance control, not steerage.

I've never taken a motorcycle course and being cheap enough, I just
might do that.

I want to see this "taught" myself because I agree with you - it's
more about maintaining momentum and angle of attack in a turn than
actually steering.

Just for you:

http://tinyurl.com/hb7c7

Just enter your state.

Twin engine docking
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:15:52 -0400, "JimH"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 31 May 2007 07:54:28 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
m...


Sorry John - didn't work that way and never has.

I still say those who are on the left/left side of the argument are
confusing two seperate issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Some people should just stick with 4-wheeled Corvettes.

ROTFL!!

Damn straight.

Hey, I'm only here for the discussion. :)

Besides, I'm not a motorcycle person. Hate the things actually.

I regard motorcycle riders in the same vein as PWC riders.

I won't say which vein that is. :)

I was with a customer yesterday who just purchased an '07 Vette. The
thing
is keyless and ignition is controlled by a proximity fob. He says the car
rides nicer than his new Silverado and is like night and day (ride wise)
compared to the '02 Vette he traded in.

They are very nice and if I could convince Mrs. Wave that I actually
need to purchase one as a long term investment for the kids, I'd be
riding in one right now.

Unfortunately, she ain't buying it.

~~ sigh ~~

Corvettes are the only thing GM ever made worth a damn.

Why are people so fascinated with recumbent cars?

Twin engine docking
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...


Sorry John - didn't work that way and never has.

I still say those who are on the left/left side of the argument are
confusing two seperate issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)


Some people should just stick with 4-wheeled Corvettes.

Eisboch :-)

One thing is for sure. Push left or right without doing anything else and
you will get a serious rash.
Amen
Brother Jim