Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 09:20:46 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:47:40 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:12:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:



That is a ridiculous special case..... if you keep pushing, the
response of the motorcycle will be as above.

This phenomenon is just an exercise in balance control, not steerage.

Check out my reply to Tom, or just go to:

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP163.html

Why would Eisboch and I lie about this?

1) Don't be so sensitive.... nobody is calling you a liar.

2) Maybe I don't understand what you are saying. How can you:

a) Be moving
b) push on a right handlebar, causing it to move a little
c) continue pushing on the handlebar
d) have the handlebar not continue moving forward or stay in position
in the direction it is pushed, thus not moving the tire to the left
e) hence, not causing the motorcycle to turn left?

If you are moving at speed and do what you describe, you will move the
front tire to the left, but you will be in a right hand turn or sliding on
the pavement. Put on some leathers, borrow someone's bike, and try it!

Now, if you are saying that this has something to do with a brief push
on the handlebar and an ensuing off-balance condition causing a lean,
which then causes a turn, I understand that!

A brief push will cause the bike to lean in the direction of the turn and
then turn, if the push is continued. If the push is too hard for too long,
you will end up on the ground, on your left side.

If so, I return to my original position that this special case is way
more about understanding balance on a motorcycle than it has with
steerage. Assuming the given that *any* lean on a motorcycle will
cause a turn.

3) Somewhere, I lost the connection between this phenomenon and
docking?

JimH used an analogy of turning a bicycle when explaining how to dock a
boat. His analogy was backwards.

Go check out the site I gave Tom. It explains countersteering when riding a
two-wheeled vehicle with a raked front end.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:45:32 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:



No, I've spent many hours teaching prospective motorcycle riders how to
ride.


Lord help us all!


I didn't know any of you sp's believed. That's nice to hear.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:07:00 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:56:32 -0400, HK wrote:

Joe wrote:
Joe wrote:
I am new to boating and would like to get some opinions on docking and
how it "should" be done. I have a Wellcraft 270 Coastal with twin
Evinrude 200's.

-When docking (perpendicular) should I be steering the boat when
maneuvering or using the engines to spin the boat 90 degrees? I'm
having a hard time with spinning it and keeping it where it needs to
be. ARG!!!
So far every time I've tried to spin it I've had to abandon that
effort and steer it in. It works but I don't want to get accustom to
doing that if it's actually easier to use the engines.

ANY helpful advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Thanks for the help everyone, I'll use your advice while practicing.
...I'll be staying away from motorcycles until I get this boat thing
figures out too.

Joe


Unless you live in a desolate area, the only thing you'll get from a
motorcycle, sooner or later, is a serious accident that might kill you.

The sad thing is that I love motorcycles and would love to own and ride
one again.

Amen, due to motorcycles, they just buried one of my students last
month and I took a call from a student that left night class yesterday
and is now facing being out of school for a couple or more weeks with
a broken knee and leg.... pins, screws, etc.

If it weren't for all of those people that "just can't see
motorcycles....."

I'm glad you laid the blame where it may have belonged.

Twin engine docking
 

On 31 May 2007 07:54:31 -0700, Chuck Gould
wrote:

On May 31, 4:02 am, thunder wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:29:19 -0400, Eisboch wrote:
No. On a moving motorcycle, (and I assume a bicycle, although I
haven't tried it) pushing the left handle away from you will cause the
motorcycle to turn towards the left ... same side that you are pushing.
Push on the right ... bike will turn towards the right.

I can see several people are having trouble with this. Don't feel bad.
So did I until I tried it.

It might help to explain, pushing left *initiates* a left turn. I think
everyone understands motorcycles turn by leaning, and pushing left is the
quickest way to get that left-hand lean. If you kept pushing left, you
wouldn't be turning, you would be on the ground, on the left hand side of
the motorcycle of course.

I found this one paragraph from one of your links quite clarifying.

"If we intentionally move the contact patch line from vertically beneath
the Center of Gravity, the bike will start to lean. For example, if while
riding the bike straight ahead, we press on the left bar the front wheel
points to the right. The front wheel tracks to the right (sometimes
called "out tracking"). So the weight of bike and rider is now to the
LEFT of it's "support" on the ground, the tire contact patches. Because
the weight is to the left, the bike leans to the left. It is important to
note, for a LEFT turn, we initiate a lean to the left by pressing on the
left bar, turning the front wheel to the RIGHT. This is often referred to
as COUNTERSTEERING: a turn to the left initiated by turning the front
wheel to the right."

So, a slight push of the left handlebar (thereby deflcting the front
wheel
just a smidgen to the right) causes the ike to lean left and it is the
leaning, rather than the steering, that makes the bike turn at speed.

Actually makes sense.

But to keep the turn going, pressure must be maintained on the handlebar,
else the bike will right itself.

By Jove, I think you've got it!

Twin engine docking
 

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 12:07:52 -0400, "D.Duck" wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 31 May 2007 09:20:46 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:47:40 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:12:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:



That is a ridiculous special case..... if you keep pushing, the
response of the motorcycle will be as above.

This phenomenon is just an exercise in balance control, not steerage.

Check out my reply to Tom, or just go to:

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP163.html

Why would Eisboch and I lie about this?

1) Don't be so sensitive.... nobody is calling you a liar.

2) Maybe I don't understand what you are saying. How can you:

a) Be moving
b) push on a right handlebar, causing it to move a little
c) continue pushing on the handlebar
d) have the handlebar not continue moving forward or stay in position
in the direction it is pushed, thus not moving the tire to the left
e) hence, not causing the motorcycle to turn left?

If you are moving at speed and do what you describe, you will move the
front tire to the left, but you will be in a right hand turn or sliding
on
the pavement. Put on some leathers, borrow someone's bike, and try it!

Now, if you are saying that this has something to do with a brief push
on the handlebar and an ensuing off-balance condition causing a lean,
which then causes a turn, I understand that!

A brief push will cause the bike to lean in the direction of the turn
and
then turn, if the push is continued. If the push is too hard for too
long,
you will end up on the ground, on your left side.

If so, I return to my original position that this special case is way
more about understanding balance on a motorcycle than it has with
steerage. Assuming the given that *any* lean on a motorcycle will
cause a turn.

3) Somewhere, I lost the connection between this phenomenon and
docking?

JimH used an analogy of turning a bicycle when explaining how to dock a
boat. His analogy was backwards.

Go check out the site I gave Tom. It explains countersteering when
riding
a
two-wheeled vehicle with a raked front end.

You keep talking about "at speed". Just what is the speed you're
referring
to?


Faster than walking, say 15 mph or more. At a slow enough speed, like
walking speed, the rake of the front end makes no difference in turning.
If
you push left, you'll go right, just like a tricycle.

Well thank you very much. I thought I had been steering a bicycle wrong all
these years.

Twin engine docking
 

On May 31, 6:31 am, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 21:53:43 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I guess you all will have to just go try it. It's due to the gryoscopic
stability of the bike.

I just returned from my morning bike ride on my brandy new mountain
bike. I push the handle bar left, it goes bicycle goes right. I lean
left, the bicycle goes left.

I think, based on this morning's experiments, that this is one of
those Myths (don't bother - I've already submitted it to Mythbusters)
that is based on observation error.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Now .... did you know that helicopters were impossible to fly until
gyroscopic progression was recognized and accounted for in the control of
the rotating airfoils?

Yes.

Somehow boating will tie into this somewhere.....

Pontoons on helicopters. And the CG and Navy fly helicopters.

Ipso Facto - QED - boating thread. :)

Everyone who believes that a bike will turn left when the left
handlebar is pushed foward, do this:
Go down the street, and find a 90 degree left hand turn, just like a
city street. Approach at a normal speed for the turn, push the left
handlebar forward, the right back and tell me what happens.

Twin engine docking
 

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 10:45:32 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:



No, I've spent many hours teaching prospective motorcycle riders how to
ride.


Lord help us all!


I didn't know any of you *sp's* believed. That's nice to hear.


"sp's" ???

Twin engine docking
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:30:34 -0500, John H.
wrote:

If it weren't for all of those people that "just can't see
motorcycles....."

I'm glad you laid the blame where it may have belonged.

* I blame Canada.*

Or Nebraska.


Don't you mean *thank Canada*?

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 12:07:52 -0400, "D.Duck" wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 31 May 2007 09:20:46 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:47:40 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:12:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:



That is a ridiculous special case..... if you keep pushing, the
response of the motorcycle will be as above.

This phenomenon is just an exercise in balance control, not steerage.

Check out my reply to Tom, or just go to:

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP163.html

Why would Eisboch and I lie about this?

1) Don't be so sensitive.... nobody is calling you a liar.

2) Maybe I don't understand what you are saying. How can you:

a) Be moving
b) push on a right handlebar, causing it to move a little
c) continue pushing on the handlebar
d) have the handlebar not continue moving forward or stay in position
in the direction it is pushed, thus not moving the tire to the left
e) hence, not causing the motorcycle to turn left?

If you are moving at speed and do what you describe, you will move the
front tire to the left, but you will be in a right hand turn or sliding on
the pavement. Put on some leathers, borrow someone's bike, and try it!

Now, if you are saying that this has something to do with a brief push
on the handlebar and an ensuing off-balance condition causing a lean,
which then causes a turn, I understand that!

A brief push will cause the bike to lean in the direction of the turn and
then turn, if the push is continued. If the push is too hard for too long,
you will end up on the ground, on your left side.

If so, I return to my original position that this special case is way
more about understanding balance on a motorcycle than it has with
steerage. Assuming the given that *any* lean on a motorcycle will
cause a turn.

3) Somewhere, I lost the connection between this phenomenon and
docking?

JimH used an analogy of turning a bicycle when explaining how to dock a
boat. His analogy was backwards.

Go check out the site I gave Tom. It explains countersteering when riding
a
two-wheeled vehicle with a raked front end.

You keep talking about "at speed". Just what is the speed you're referring
to?


Faster than walking, say 15 mph or more. At a slow enough speed, like
walking speed, the rake of the front end makes no difference in turning. If
you push left, you'll go right, just like a tricycle.

Twin engine docking
 

On Thu, 31 May 2007 16:08:11 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:30:34 -0500, John H.
wrote:

If it weren't for all of those people that "just can't see
motorcycles....."

I'm glad you laid the blame where it may have belonged.

I blame Canada.

Or Nebraska.

I once rode across Nebraska. There was a curve in the road. I had a lot of
time to set up for it. When I got to it, I pushed left and went left. Then
I pushed right to go right. I think we went around one of the few trees in
western Nebraska.