"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..


As I posted before ... it has worked out ok. I've talked to the buyer and
we are resolving the issue. But, I got a little bit smarter.

Eisboch


Glad to hear things worked out.

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:20:57 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

As I posted before ... it has worked out ok. I've talked to the buyer and
we are resolving the issue. But, I got a little bit smarter.

I wasn't going to say anything only because this has happened to me
once and I didn't want to pile on.

When I sold my '70 440 GTX, the buyer asked me to leave the title
blank as he was going to register it under his company name. I didn't
see anything wrong with that - like you we had an extensive
conversation about the car and I received the impression that he
wanted it for his collection. He gave me a story about how he had his
cars insured through his business, etc. Nice guy, pleasant and
seemingly honest. Paid cash.

Turns out he was both a collector and a dealer from Manchester, CT. He
bought the car for a client who paid a third more than the guy paid
me.

How I found out about it was interesting. I took the 'Vette to a
classic car show down in Norwich, there was the GTX parked about three
cars from me with the new owner proud of his "one owner" car he found
in Manchester. Apparently, there is a "thing" about one owner
classics which I never knew. If I had signed the title over to the
dealer, it became a "two owner" car technically.

Like Chuck said, I got what I wanted out of it, but that still doesn't
mean that you feel like you've been had.

Oh well. :)

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:49:35 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

Like Chuck said, I got what I wanted out of it, but that still doesn't
mean that you feel like you've been had.

To be entirely fair though, that's what dealers do. They get paid for
taking the risk of ownership and being able to find a buyer at the
right price. If you knew the potential market as well as the dealer,
you *might* have been able to reach the same buyer at the same price
but it's not guaranteed.

"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:26 -0400, Eisboch penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


If he's a dealer, which I now suspect, he didn't do anything
illegal.
There seems to be way more cloak-and dagger stuff going on here for
something not to be borderline crooked, if not entirely illegal.

Trust me, as a buyer, I got on the wrong end of one of these deals
and
you don't want to go there.....

If he sells the boat (with whatever representations he deems
appropriate) and pulls a disappearing act, the two signers of the
paperwork are likely left to duke it out..... You and Whomever....

Good point. I am not overly concerned because fundamentally I know
the boat and engine are fine. But, your point is well taken.

Eisboch

Let's say the brokers friend asks if he could use the boat for a day or
two and is involved in a fatal accident. Open your wallet because
you are legally the owner of that boat.

You should give your attorney a call on this.
Richard,

Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth
exactly what you have paid for it.

You would not be responsible for any damages or have any more liability
than if someone stole your car and had an accident, even if it was a
fatal accident.




Not true. Friend in Florida in the 1970's had his car stolen. Georgia
police gave chase to the stolen car and riddled it with about 150 bullet
holes. Car crashed and took out 150' of highway chain railing. Friends
insurance company had to pay for the damage. He owed the car, so is
liable for any damage it causes. Said it would have been cheaper for the
insurance company to have just given the car to the thief. Locally a few
years ago, a person sold a motorcycle and filled out the change of
ownership statement that is sent to the state DMV. The DMV misplaced the
form. A couple of weeks later, the buyer crashed the bike and killed
both himself and a girl on the back. The girls parents were going to get
millions from the seller, as they could not prove they sold the bike.
Luckily for the seller, someone at the DMV found the form as they were
sending a bunch of old stuff to be burned.

Bill,

While this story has all the ear marks of a great urban legend, I will
assume you knew all the information from your friend. If that is true,
they obviously have changed the law since the 1970's

http://insurance.freeadvice.com/insu...02_170_601.htm

When I have sold cars and boats to individuals I have always drawn up
contracts of sale and contacted the state and DNR concerning the sale. I
was not really worried the liability, but I wanted to make sure I was
taken off the tax records and the new party was responsible for the taxes.

Since Richard is a smart guy, I would assume he had a contract for the
sale signed by all parties. While this is not as easy as filing a record
of the sale with the state and/or DNR, it could be used in a court to show
proof that you no longer owned the car/boat.

Chuck's excellent advice was one of someone who was in the business and is
used to covering all aspects of liability. I would make sure I followed
his advice on future sales.

Here is a great link reviewing the details on how to handle car/boat sales
by individuals.

http://siy.cars.com/siy/qsg/tipsClose.jsp?aff=pe



I would still believe you would get stuck for damages. You own the car, and
you are responsible for it. Would be lots of people running away from an
accident and claiming the car was stolen, as well as with deep pocket laws,
they are going after the money. I was in a company class with the guy with
the shot up car.

Calif Bill wrote:


I would still believe you would get stuck for damages. You own the car, and
you are responsible for it. Would be lots of people running away from an
accident and claiming the car was stolen, as well as with deep pocket laws,
they are going after the money. I was in a company class with the guy with
the shot up car.



Bill,
The only way to answer this question to anyone satisfaction is to
contract their insurance company. Mine told me that the comprehensive
insurance coverage would pay to fix my car, but they would not be
responsible for the damage caused to other property caused by the person
who stole your car. That would have to be covered by the other people's
uninsured motorists and comprehensive coverage.

Now if we follow your logic about the responsibility remains with the
car, if a criminal steals your car, robs a bank, and then gets away,
they could hold you responsible for the money stolen because it was your
car that was used in the commission of a crime.

remember that he
showed up as promised, paid the asking price without quibbling, and
that his check ultimately proved to be good at the bank. He did
business on the seller's terms all the way, and performed as promised.

That was my point. Did I not state it clearly?

--Mike

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 30, 6:26?am, "JimH" wrote:
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message

...





On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:26 -0400, Eisboch penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

If he's a dealer, which I now suspect, he didn't do anything illegal.

There seems to be way more cloak-and dagger stuff going on here for
something not to be borderline crooked, if not entirely illegal.

Trust me, as a buyer, I got on the wrong end of one of these deals and
you don't want to go there.....

If he sells the boat (with whatever representations he deems
appropriate) and pulls a disappearing act, the two signers of the
paperwork are likely left to duke it out..... You and Whomever....

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats

Yep. I would suggest that Richard head down to the brokers place ASAP and
force him to sign the title as the buyer.

An open title is never a good thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


If the law in that state is the same as the law in Washington, (likely
so, they are pretty uniform) the dealer cannot be forced to sign the
title as buyer.

Dealer's "hold title" rather than "take title".

What Eisboch *should* do, if his state is like WA, is file a "Seller's
Report of Sale". This document goes into the Department of Licensing
and substantiates that the boat was sold on March XX, 2007 to Joe
Doaks. This can be critically important. Let's say that before the
ultimate buyer gets around to putting the title in his name he takes
the boat out for its maiden voyage, does some dumb newbie thing, and
badly injures somebody or worse.
Let's say he flees the scene. When the authorities start tacking down
the ownership of the boat, the last guy they find of record
is.......guess who. Not a pretty picture. It will probably cost as
much as the boat sold for to pay a lawyer to straigten the whole mess
out. Maybe more. If the Seller's Report of Sale is filed, the
authorities will find *that*, instead of Eisboch's title, as the last
activity. Very important.

It sounds like the guy wrote a personal check, or Eisboch would have
known that he sold to XYZ Boat Dealer. In most states, that's co-
mingling of personal and business funds. In some states that would
cost him his license. In a lot of states it is also illegal not to
disclose to a buyer or seller that you are a dealer or broker, but I
can't say in this case.

Tempting as it might be to "go after" this guy, remember that he
showed up as promised, paid the asking price without quibbling, and
that his check ultimately proved to be good at the bank. He did
business on the seller's terms all the way, and performed as promised.
It's no crime simply to be a dealer.

Not true. Friend in Florida in the 1970's had his car stolen. Georgia
police gave chase to the stolen car and riddled it with about 150 bullet
holes. Car crashed and took out 150' of highway chain railing. Friends
insurance company had to pay for the damage. He owed the car, so is
liable for any damage it causes.

Bill, this is almost believable. The state/city/village/ins co has to go
after someone for the damage. I say this because my father in-law's car was
stolen last year, and was involved in a hit and run about 20 minutes after
it was stolen. He had already called and reported the theft minutes after it
happened. That still didn't stop San Jose's finest from coming to his house,
and interrogating him, like he was the driver! Once the records proved that
he had reported the theft *before* the hit and run, did they let up. He's
the victim, and he was treated like the perp.

Bottom line, his insurance paid for the repairs to his car (they *did* find
it...3 weeks later), but not to the person who was hit by the thief.

--Mike

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net...

"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:26 -0400, Eisboch penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


If he's a dealer, which I now suspect, he didn't do anything illegal.
There seems to be way more cloak-and dagger stuff going on here for
something not to be borderline crooked, if not entirely illegal.

Trust me, as a buyer, I got on the wrong end of one of these deals and
you don't want to go there.....

If he sells the boat (with whatever representations he deems
appropriate) and pulls a disappearing act, the two signers of the
paperwork are likely left to duke it out..... You and Whomever....


Good point. I am not overly concerned because fundamentally I know
the boat and engine are fine. But, your point is well taken.

Eisboch


Let's say the brokers friend asks if he could use the boat for a day or
two and is involved in a fatal accident. Open your wallet because you
are legally the owner of that boat.

You should give your attorney a call on this.
Richard,

Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth exactly
what you have paid for it.

You would not be responsible for any damages or have any more liability
than if someone stole your car and had an accident, even if it was a
fatal accident.




Not true. Friend in Florida in the 1970's had his car stolen. Georgia
police gave chase to the stolen car and riddled it with about 150 bullet
holes. Car crashed and took out 150' of highway chain railing. Friends
insurance company had to pay for the damage. He owed the car, so is
liable for any damage it causes. Said it would have been cheaper for the
insurance company to have just given the car to the thief. Locally a few
years ago, a person sold a motorcycle and filled out the change of
ownership statement that is sent to the state DMV. The DMV misplaced the
form. A couple of weeks later, the buyer crashed the bike and killed both
himself and a girl on the back. The girls parents were going to get
millions from the seller, as they could not prove they sold the bike.
Luckily for the seller, someone at the DMV found the form as they were
sending a bunch of old stuff to be burned.

"Mike" wrote in message
t...
Not true. Friend in Florida in the 1970's had his car stolen. Georgia
police gave chase to the stolen car and riddled it with about 150 bullet
holes. Car crashed and took out 150' of highway chain railing. Friends
insurance company had to pay for the damage. He owed the car, so is
liable for any damage it causes.

Bill, this is almost believable. The state/city/village/ins co has to go
after someone for the damage. I say this because my father in-law's car
was stolen last year, and was involved in a hit and run about 20 minutes
after it was stolen. He had already called and reported the theft minutes
after it happened. That still didn't stop San Jose's finest from coming to
his house, and interrogating him, like he was the driver! Once the records
proved that he had reported the theft *before* the hit and run, did they
let up. He's the victim, and he was treated like the perp.

Bottom line, his insurance paid for the repairs to his car (they *did*
find it...3 weeks later), but not to the person who was hit by the thief.

--Mike

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net...

"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:26 -0400, Eisboch penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


If he's a dealer, which I now suspect, he didn't do anything
illegal.
There seems to be way more cloak-and dagger stuff going on here for
something not to be borderline crooked, if not entirely illegal.

Trust me, as a buyer, I got on the wrong end of one of these deals
and
you don't want to go there.....

If he sells the boat (with whatever representations he deems
appropriate) and pulls a disappearing act, the two signers of the
paperwork are likely left to duke it out..... You and Whomever....


Good point. I am not overly concerned because fundamentally I know
the boat and engine are fine. But, your point is well taken.

Eisboch


Let's say the brokers friend asks if he could use the boat for a day or
two and is involved in a fatal accident. Open your wallet because
you are legally the owner of that boat.

You should give your attorney a call on this.
Richard,

Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth
exactly what you have paid for it.

You would not be responsible for any damages or have any more liability
than if someone stole your car and had an accident, even if it was a
fatal accident.




Not true. Friend in Florida in the 1970's had his car stolen. Georgia
police gave chase to the stolen car and riddled it with about 150 bullet
holes. Car crashed and took out 150' of highway chain railing. Friends
insurance company had to pay for the damage. He owed the car, so is
liable for any damage it causes. Said it would have been cheaper for the
insurance company to have just given the car to the thief. Locally a few
years ago, a person sold a motorcycle and filled out the change of
ownership statement that is sent to the state DMV. The DMV misplaced the
form. A couple of weeks later, the buyer crashed the bike and killed
both himself and a girl on the back. The girls parents were going to get
millions from the seller, as they could not prove they sold the bike.
Luckily for the seller, someone at the DMV found the form as they were
sending a bunch of old stuff to be burned.




But a person hit by the thief, could claim that is was the cars owner that
allowed the car to be stolen.

On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 05:50:48 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

But a person hit by the thief, could claim that is was the cars owner that
allowed the car to be stolen.

If there was any single statement that proves that you are from
California..... :)

I will say this - you can sue for anything provided you can find a
lawyer.

Fine a lawyer - get it?

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 05:50:48 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

But a person hit by the thief, could claim that is was the cars owner that
allowed the car to be stolen.

If there was any single statement that proves that you are from
California..... :)

I will say this - you can sue for anything provided you can find a
lawyer.

Fine a lawyer - get it?

Yup, California born. The state where we had a cable car named desire. Bad
accident years ago involving a cable car and a female witness sued and won
because the accident was to horrible to witness, and she turned into a
nymphomaniac.