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#51
posted to rec.boats.cruising,rec.boats
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"chartering" with guests
"Scotty" wrote in message
. .. "Jeff" wrote in message ... If you look back to my first post in the thread, you'll see I posted the the formal CG memo on the update rules from 1994. In particular, a person is a passenger for hire if they are required to pay "but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies." In other words, if you would take them out even if they didn't share the fuel cost, then its not a license requiring situation if you do accept the offer. The previous rules were actually so strict that allowing a friend to "bring the beer" could be considered a charter. What if I receive ''sexual favors'' for a moonlight sail? -- Scott Vernon Plowville Pa _/)__/)_/)_ You might get caught with your pants down? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
#52
posted to rec.boats.cruising,rec.boats
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"chartering" with guests
Scotty wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message ... If you look back to my first post in the thread, you'll see I posted the the formal CG memo on the update rules from 1994. In particular, a person is a passenger for hire if they are required to pay "but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies." In other words, if you would take them out even if they didn't share the fuel cost, then its not a license requiring situation if you do accept the offer. The previous rules were actually so strict that allowing a friend to "bring the beer" could be considered a charter. What if I receive ''sexual favors'' for a moonlight sail? That depends on whether the favors are voluntary and whether the value exceeds the cost of fuel. In your case, both are doubtful. |
#53
posted to rec.boats.cruising,rec.boats
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"chartering" with guests
On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:06:59 -0400, Jeff wrote:
Capt. Bill wrote: On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 09:02:21 -0400, Jeff wrote: Capt. Bill wrote: What you seem to be missing here, is the fact that the legal loop hole in this deal is, as I recall, that due to the fact that the boat is first chartered bareboat then that charterer hires a captain to only run the boat, there are no paying passengers. There for you can put on board as many people as the boat can handle based on it's size. Oh, I understand exactly what you're claiming. You're say that you can put a piece of paper in your pocket that says: "I'm the owner and I'm not licensed but that's OK because I've only been hired to drive the boat" and then you become exempt from all of the rules concerning passengers for hire. If you think this really works, then you should print it up and sell in on EBAY as a "Master's License Substitute - Approved by the CG" Note I said "hires a captain". The discussion was specifically about the owner of the boat being hired as the captain. Discussions tend to broaden as the flow. It's just like if you hired a captain to run your own private boat for a day. There are no paying guests, so there for the "captain" would not have to have a license according to the USCG. And yes, I have asked them about this. But in most cases your insurance would require it. No, its really not the same if guests are not paying anything. In fact, that is exactly the distinction. Your situation may work if bare boat customers hire a deck hand to help, but it certainly doesn't work if they hire the owner or his representative. No, you're right. They could not use the owner. But I believe that has more to due with insurance than the CG. So you're claiming that all those regulations about licenses and passengers for hire really don't count? The US Code (otherwise known as "The Law") is rather specific: Title 46 section 2101: (42) ``uninspected passenger vessel'' means an uninspected vessel-- ... (B) of less than 100 gross tons as measured under section 14502 of this title, or an alternate tonnage measured under section 14302 of this title as prescribed by the Secretary under section 14104 of this title-- (i) carrying not more than 6 passengers, including at least one passenger for hire; or (ii) that is chartered with the crew provided or specified by the owner or the owner's representative and carrying not more than 6 passengers. and then Sec. 8903: A self-propelled, uninspected passenger vessel shall be operated by an individual licensed by the Secretary to operate that type of vessel, under prescribed regulations. Seems pretty clear: if the owner or his rep is on board, then there must be a license. You may be right that this is really an insurance issue, since violating the law probably voids your insurance. I've been doing this for decades. And I even know of a large, 90" +, foregn charter boat in this area that got stopped by the CG on just this issuse. He had all is ducks in a row as far as the contract paper trail goes, and nothing came of it. Hmmm. Do you think that foreign flagged vessels might be covered under different rules? Or for that matter, owners of 90' boats get to operate under different rules. Hmmm. Can you learn to read for content? So far everything you've written has been content-free. The boat wasn't "foreign flagged" at the time. As I said, it was foreign built. If the vessel was US flagged then the only significance of being foreign built is that it would not be eligible to carry passengers for hire at all. In this case, it would be very important for the owners to make sure nobody was actually paying, or if they were, it was strictly "bare boat." If it did have the Jones Act exemption (intended for "small vessels," but your 90 footer might qualify), then your "foreign" comment was totally gratuitous. Not in the contexted of which I was speaking. See, there's that content thing again. And owners of a 90' boat don't get to operate under a different set of rules, believe me. Whatever you say. Everyone, rich and poor, gets treated exactly the same in our world. They seem to by the USCG. Ask Tiger Woods. |
#54
posted to rec.boats.cruising,rec.boats
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"chartering" with guests
Capt. Bill wrote:
The discussion was specifically about the owner of the boat being hired as the captain. Discussions tend to broaden as the flow. In other words, you can't read for content. .... The boat wasn't "foreign flagged" at the time. As I said, it was foreign built. If the vessel was US flagged then the only significance of being foreign built is that it would not be eligible to carry passengers for hire at all. In this case, it would be very important for the owners to make sure nobody was actually paying, or if they were, it was strictly "bare boat." If it did have the Jones Act exemption (intended for "small vessels," but your 90 footer might qualify), then your "foreign" comment was totally gratuitous. Not in the contexted of which I was speaking. See, there's that content thing again. Where? I seem to have missed it again. Was there any significance to the fact that you said the vessel was "foreign"? And owners of a 90' boat don't get to operate under a different set of rules, believe me. Whatever you say. Everyone, rich and poor, gets treated exactly the same in our world. They seem to by the USCG. Ask Tiger Woods. Large vessels get boarded nowadays - I was anchored last week in a cove where a new large SeaRay got boarded at 10PM by the CG. I heard the next morning it was just a "routine" inspection and that all new "drug running capable" boats in the area will get boarded. However, rich people have much better lawyers and will have the proper advice and paperwork. And, if the glove won't fit, you must acquit! |
#55
posted to rec.boats.cruising,rec.boats
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"chartering" with guests
Jeff wrote: Bob wrote: However, on inland waters....get this........ there are a few states that all you need is the state's "Guides & Packers" license. No uscg master or oupv needed on inland waters for sailing lessons. Just think YMCA summer sailing lessons... as an example I'm guessing these "inland waters" are actually State regulated bodies of water that are not covers by the US Inland rules. This would include most of the lakes in New England, for example, where the camps are. Yes, I thought the same thing.. however when I contacted both Oregon and Washington states seems it is any waters inside the Boundry Line; Columbia River, Puget Sound etc. Just and interesting side note. Personnaly I strongle disagree trying to find a loop holes in uscg licensing CFRs. There are a few out there for those who want to abuse the spirit of a CFR. Here is another hole. Using your boat as a bare boat charter operation and then claiming 100% of all expences as a loss and therefor able to deduct that loss from your other income. A couple years ago lots of people got a surprise by the IRS. There are holes but I wold not want to be the person who was the poster boy for increased government oversight. |
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