Jeff wrote:

What country is "M" chartering in? "Big Cats" doesn't sound like the
US. Do the various Caribbean charter countries have the same strict
licensing requirements as the US?

The USVI. I don't know of many charter fleets in the CONUS.

Rosalie B. wrote:
"Chuck Gould" wrote:
beaufortnc wrote:
Hi,

I have a charter captain friend who told me once that there is a
loophole around the conventional "6-pack" CG License chartering
regulations.

He said something to the effect that if you have a contract that
specifies that the boat is being rented as a whole to the "guests",
that they are able to pick whoever they'd like to be the captain of
their "rented" vessel, whether that person is licensed or not.

So, in essence, the boat "rental" provides the income, and the
"captain" performs duties for free.

With this method, he was able to charter his boat with more than 6
guests, and without a captain's license.

Does anyone know the real story on this? Was he f.o.s.?

I've talked to a man (let's call him M) who charter a boat (from a
charter company) and get a group of people together each of whom pays
M a part of the fee. Say one of those big cats that sleeps 8, and M
gets six couples and divides the charter cost by 6 instead of 8, so
that his part is paid for by the others. Then the people each bring
or buy some of the food and do the cooking and M acts as the captain
and cruise director. He gets his airfare and expenses paid for. But
he doesn't own the boat although I suppose he could have leased the
boat to the charter company.

Why not just do it with the proper paperwork? A lot of the license
schools will coach you through lying about your sea service, and in
exchange for $600-$800 will basically ensure that you pass the exam. If
you really want to haul people for hire, get the license.

The way I read this, the guy wants to take more than 6 people. Or are
you saying the next license above the six-pack license is easy to get?

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
....

As I said, I don't know the exact name of the term, but that's the way
it works - I know guys who do it occasionally - perfectly legal
because you are being hired to operate a boat- even if it's your own
boat - you are just an employee of the charterer. As the original
poster asked, it is a loophole in the laws/rules/regulations -
whatever.

I don't know about the legalities of this situation (seems OK but
sleazy), but it is quite different from the OP since the captain
actually has a license. The whole point of the original post is that
the *unlicensed* owner can make money as a captain by creating a
"legal fiction" which I believe is completely illegal.

A long long time ago I was part of a charter group where the owner
insisted that his friend be aboard as the "first mate." I've been
told recently that changes the charter from a bare boat to passengers
for hire, and thus he should have had a license. I don't know if this
true but it sounds like it is.


What you cannot do is exceed the 12 person max - that's the key. And
you have to stay within the tonnage and distance limitations of your
license - so, for instance, if you have an OUPV Near Shore out to one
hundred miles and your boat can handle the capacity safely, that's the
limitation. And you have to be hired to operate the boat - even if
it's your own boat.

OUPV is 6 passengers.

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 21:43:11 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..
On 14 Jul 2006 13:35:09 -0700, "beaufortnc"
wrote:

Does anyone know the real story on this? Was he f.o.s.?

Partly f.o.s.

It's called demarage or something like that (can't remember the exact
term) but the way it works is you rent the boat sans captain, then
provide a list of captains who are acceptable to you allowing the
charterer to obtain his own captain.

The way it works is you provide the list to the charterer, say three
captains, and oddly, only one is available to do the charter. Assuming
that your boat can handle the capacity, you can have up to twelve
people aboard with a Captain who has an OUPV - that Captain can be you
assuming you have the proper license.

The captain is still required to have a license and has to stay within
the tonnage and/or limitations of the license, but that's the way it
is done.

OUPV = 6 people max. If you can find the reference that says differently,
please post it.

As I said, I don't know the exact name of the term, but that's the way
it works - I know guys who do it occasionally - perfectly legal
because you are being hired to operate a boat- even if it's your own
boat - you are just an employee of the charterer. As the original
poster asked, it is a loophole in the laws/rules/regulations -
whatever.

Well, I can't find any mention of any legal way for a person to have paying
guests.

What you cannot do is exceed the 12 person max - that's the key. And
you have to stay within the tonnage and distance limitations of your
license - so, for instance, if you have an OUPV Near Shore out to one
hundred miles and your boat can handle the capacity safely, that's the
limitation. And you have to be hired to operate the boat - even if
it's your own boat.

No, that's not good enough. If you have an OUPV, you cannot exceed six
paying passengers.

Like I said, find the statute and I'll back down.

I'm not going to argue about it because I honestly don't care if you
believe it or not and I don't have the time to look it up. If you
really honestly doubt it and want to prove me wrong, then by all
means, call your local USCG MSO or one of those "captains" schools
and ask them about it - I suspect the "captains" school might be a
better source because that's how they sell their "stuff". :)

I don't need to argue with you nor prove you wrong. I know the regs. I don't
need to call the USCG, because I can read the regs online (hint, hint).

Now, all that said, lots of sailing organizations organize sails wherein a
skipper volunteers to be skipper and the school places people on the boat.
No money changes hands between the skipper and the crew.

And, I wish to make it perfectly clear, that I don't agree with it and
I think it's something that should be closed. I would not advise
doing it in any case and I don't recommend it.

Good for you! :-)

As with anything on the Internet, unless you can independently verify
it, in writing from a unimpeachable source, view it as suspicious
and/or highly unlikely.

Which is exactly what I'm doing. It can't be verified.

If I'm wrong, I'll admit it right here in front of God and the whole
virtual universe - I've been wrong before and probably, well, more
than likely, be wrong again.

Feel free... :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...

beaufortnc wrote:
Hi,

I have a charter captain friend who told me once that there is a
loophole around the conventional "6-pack" CG License chartering
regulations.

He said something to the effect that if you have a contract that
specifies that the boat is being rented as a whole to the "guests",
that they are able to pick whoever they'd like to be the captain of
their "rented" vessel, whether that person is licensed or not.

So, in essence, the boat "rental" provides the income, and the
"captain" performs duties for free.

With this method, he was able to charter his boat with more than 6
guests, and without a captain's license.

Does anyone know the real story on this? Was he f.o.s.?

Thanks,

Mike.



Hey...... give it a try ,request a boarding, and see what happens. post
the results here.
Bob

Whew... :-) That's harsh. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 10:30:03 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I'm wrong, I'll admit it right here in front of God and the whole
virtual universe - I've been wrong before and probably, well, more
than likely, be wrong again.

Feel free... :-)

Ah - well seeing hows I had a ton of time sitting here at the airport
because my flight was cancelled and I'm waiting for another to arrive,
I took the time to look around - and I found it.

It's called a Demise Charter - basically the lease of a vessel in
which all control is relinquished by the owner to the charterer, and
the charterer bears all the expenses of operation.

It's kind of like a bareboat charter only slightly different.

That's where the OUPV thing used (note the used) to come in -
apparently in Section 2101.1.42 the term uninspected used to allow for
up to 12 passengers and there wasn't a distinction between between
vessels of 100 gross tons or greater and 100 gross tons and under.

However, that all changed in 1993 with something called the Passenger
Vessel Safety Act (Public Law public law 103-206) which eliminated the
loophole where vessels operating under legitimate bareboat or demise
charters were not required to meet the commercial passenger vessel
standards. Thus, even if you had an OUPV, under the old Demise Charter
regs, you could take up to 12 passengers. There were some other
technical legal specifics involved and I don't have time to search for
them. It's mute anyway because it can't be done anymore.

So there you have it. I was right in that you could do it at one time
but since 1993 you can't anymore because that loophole was closed.
Which is interesting because I know some charter captains who are
still operating under the impression that it's all legal and what not.
It also would appear that I need to peruse the CFR's - I've had my
license a long time and haven't really kept up with the regs - need to
put that on my to-do list for the winter.

Let's call it a draw. :)

And now, I'm about to get my butt in line, head off to NC and sea
trial my new boat.

WHOO HOO!!

By the way Capt JG - pleasure meeting you - all the best.

Well, I'm glad we were both right. :-) I've been sailing for many years, but
only relatively recently got my OUPV, with near coastal.

Definitely a good idea staying current. No one wants to argue with the CG
and be wrong. :-)

What's your new boat? In any case, have a safe flight. Be sure to take your
shoes off when you get in line.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 18:19:14 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

And now, I'm about to get my butt in line, head off to NC and sea
trial my new boat.

=================

Pictures ?

On 14 Jul 2006 13:35:09 -0700, "beaufortnc"
wrote:

Hi,

I have a charter captain friend who told me once that there is a
loophole around the conventional "6-pack" CG License chartering
regulations.

He said something to the effect that if you have a contract that
specifies that the boat is being rented as a whole to the "guests",
that they are able to pick whoever they'd like to be the captain of
their "rented" vessel, whether that person is licensed or not.

So, in essence, the boat "rental" provides the income, and the
"captain" performs duties for free.

With this method, he was able to charter his boat with more than 6
guests, and without a captain's license.

Does anyone know the real story on this? Was he f.o.s.?

Thanks,

Mike.


Close, the boat can be rented "bareboat" and then they hire the
captain of their choice. The captain would have to be licensed.
It's also used to get around the foreign built rule.

There is a term for this kind of charter, but for the life of me I
can't recall what it is.

On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 11:09:18 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
...

As I said, I don't know the exact name of the term, but that's the way
it works - I know guys who do it occasionally - perfectly legal
because you are being hired to operate a boat- even if it's your own
boat - you are just an employee of the charterer. As the original
poster asked, it is a loophole in the laws/rules/regulations -
whatever.

I don't know about the legalities of this situation (seems OK but
sleazy), but it is quite different from the OP since the captain
actually has a license. The whole point of the original post is that
the *unlicensed* owner can make money as a captain by creating a
"legal fiction" which I believe is completely illegal.

A long long time ago I was part of a charter group where the owner
insisted that his friend be aboard as the "first mate." I've been
told recently that changes the charter from a bare boat to passengers
for hire, and thus he should have had a license. I don't know if this
true but it sounds like it is.


What you cannot do is exceed the 12 person max - that's the key. And
you have to stay within the tonnage and distance limitations of your
license - so, for instance, if you have an OUPV Near Shore out to one
hundred miles and your boat can handle the capacity safely, that's the
limitation. And you have to be hired to operate the boat - even if
it's your own boat.

OUPV is 6 passengers.


What you seem to be missing here, is the fact that the legal loop hole
in this deal is, as I recall, that due to the fact that the boat is
first chartered bareboat then that charterer hires a captain to only
run the boat, there are no paying passengers. There for you can put
on board as many people as the boat can handle based on it's size.


It's just like if you hired a captain to run your own private boat for
a day. There are no paying guests, so there for the "captain" would
not have to have a license according to the USCG. And yes, I have
asked them about this. But in most cases your insurance would require
it.

I've been doing this for decades. And I even know of a large, 90" +,
foregn charter boat in this area that got stopped by the CG on just
this issuse. He had all is ducks in a row as far as the contract paper
trail goes, and nothing came of it.

Capt. Bill wrote:

What you seem to be missing here, is the fact that the legal loop hole
in this deal is, as I recall, that due to the fact that the boat is
first chartered bareboat then that charterer hires a captain to only
run the boat, there are no paying passengers. There for you can put
on board as many people as the boat can handle based on it's size.

Oh, I understand exactly what you're claiming. You're say that you
can put a piece of paper in your pocket that says: "I'm the owner and
I'm not licensed but that's OK because I've only been hired to drive
the boat" and then you become exempt from all of the rules concerning
passengers for hire.

If you think this really works, then you should print it up and sell
in on EBAY as a "Master's License Substitute - Approved by the CG"



It's just like if you hired a captain to run your own private boat for
a day. There are no paying guests, so there for the "captain" would
not have to have a license according to the USCG. And yes, I have
asked them about this. But in most cases your insurance would require
it.

No, its really not the same if guests are not paying anything. In
fact, that is exactly the distinction. Your situation may work if
bare boat customers hire a deck hand to help, but it certainly doesn't
work if they hire the owner or his representative.


I've been doing this for decades. And I even know of a large, 90" +,
foregn charter boat in this area that got stopped by the CG on just
this issuse. He had all is ducks in a row as far as the contract paper
trail goes, and nothing came of it.

Hmmm. Do you think that foreign flagged vessels might be covered
under different rules? Or for that matter, owners of 90' boats get to
operate under different rules.

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 09:02:21 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Capt. Bill wrote:

What you seem to be missing here, is the fact that the legal loop hole
in this deal is, as I recall, that due to the fact that the boat is
first chartered bareboat then that charterer hires a captain to only
run the boat, there are no paying passengers. There for you can put
on board as many people as the boat can handle based on it's size.

Oh, I understand exactly what you're claiming. You're say that you
can put a piece of paper in your pocket that says: "I'm the owner and
I'm not licensed but that's OK because I've only been hired to drive
the boat" and then you become exempt from all of the rules concerning
passengers for hire.

If you think this really works, then you should print it up and sell
in on EBAY as a "Master's License Substitute - Approved by the CG"

Note I said "hires a captain".




It's just like if you hired a captain to run your own private boat for
a day. There are no paying guests, so there for the "captain" would
not have to have a license according to the USCG. And yes, I have
asked them about this. But in most cases your insurance would require
it.

No, its really not the same if guests are not paying anything. In
fact, that is exactly the distinction. Your situation may work if
bare boat customers hire a deck hand to help, but it certainly doesn't
work if they hire the owner or his representative.

No, you're right. They could not use the owner. But I believe that has
more to due with insurance than the CG.




I've been doing this for decades. And I even know of a large, 90" +,
foregn charter boat in this area that got stopped by the CG on just
this issuse. He had all is ducks in a row as far as the contract paper
trail goes, and nothing came of it.

Hmmm. Do you think that foreign flagged vessels might be covered
under different rules? Or for that matter, owners of 90' boats get to
operate under different rules.


Hmmm. Can you learn to read for content?

The boat wasn't "foreign flagged" at the time. As I said, it was
foreign built.

And owners of a 90' boat don't get to operate under a different set of
rules, believe me.