On 3 Dec 2005 19:02:25 -0800, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 17:58:26 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

John H. wrote:
How many of the 45 million
babies killed would have lived if they'd simply been born at the time
they were killed? More than a thousand? Ten percent? One percent?

--
John

And think of the poor sperm that oozes out...and the eggs wasted each month.

Hard question, huh? "It's just a fetus kicking, honey." Ring any
bells?

Here, I'll repeat one you seem to have missed.

Harry, all nations have their Holy Days. Our nation does too. If you
don't want to join in the celebration of Christ's birth, don't do it.


Our nation does not. "Congress shall make no law......" go back and
read the first amendment.

Looks like they blew it. Christmas is a federal Holy Day.


Are Jews un-American?

Only un-American Jews are un-American. I would have no problem with
Chanukah being a national Holy Day also. If their is a day especially
holy to Muslims, then it can also be a national Holy Day.


How about atheists and agnostics? Are they less American because they
don't pray to Jesus, or don't pray at all? They're a heck of a lot less
Christian, for sure. But most of the Christians in the world aren't
Americans. Christmas is not a "national holy day" . My ancestors began
arriving here in the early 1600's specifically to get away from
"official state holy days." Our founders set up a system where you are
free to practice your religion as you see fit, but it will never be the
"national" religion. Sorry.

Is there a day that is holy to atheists and/or agnostics? If so, make
it a national Holy Day.

I'm happy for your ancestors. They had a bearing in the development of
you. We need people like you to show us how important the Christmas
Holy Day really is.

Thanks for all you do.


--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

On 3 Dec 2005 18:52:36 -0800, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 16:59:05 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:



Harry, celebrating the birth of these Jews should be done on the day
of their births. I have no problem with that.

Christmas celebrates the day of one particular Jew's birth, Jesus. You
may find that galling, but it's a fact.

--
John

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Nonsense. As far as I know, there isn't a single biblical scholar
willing to state any specific
day of the year as the birthday of Jesus. December 25 was chosen to
allow the Christ-mass to supplant Germanic solstice festivals. And
*that's* a fact.

Nor did I say there was a specific day of Christ's birth. I said that
Christmas celebrates the day...could have been any day. We happen to
celebrate the day on 25 December.


Christmas was rarely celebrated as anything more than just another
minor feast day on the annual religious calendar until some time in the
early 19th century. When you read Acts, do you see examples of early
Christians celebrating Christmas and Easter? How about Paul's letters
to all the early churches, do you read any exhortations to be sure to
remember to celebrate Christmas on December 25, or Easter on the first
Sunday after the first full moon following the spring equinox? Funny
how so many people *insist* that Jesus was born on December 25,
exactly, but don't have a problem with Easter wandering all around the
calendar from year to year.

I don't have a problem with any of it, Chuck. *You* are the one having
the problems with it.

Methinks thou dost protest too much!

(You are one of the *very* few people I know that can state when
Easter occurs. Congratulations. Must have been a good Catholic
upbringing!)

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

John H. wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 19:02:25 -0800, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 17:58:26 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

John H. wrote:
How many of the 45 million
babies killed would have lived if they'd simply been born at the time
they were killed? More than a thousand? Ten percent? One percent?

--
John

And think of the poor sperm that oozes out...and the eggs wasted each month.

Hard question, huh? "It's just a fetus kicking, honey." Ring any
bells?

Here, I'll repeat one you seem to have missed.

Harry, all nations have their Holy Days. Our nation does too. If you
don't want to join in the celebration of Christ's birth, don't do it.


Our nation does not. "Congress shall make no law......" go back and
read the first amendment.

Looks like they blew it. Christmas is a federal Holy Day.


Nonsense. Christmas is a federal holiday, not holy day.

Yes, the entymology of "holiday" is closely associated with "holy day",
but if we are to accept your declaration of a national "holy day",
would you please explain the religious significance of the other
national "holy days?" Why not start with Labor Day? Fourth of July? (Is
that in the Bible somehwere)? Maybe follow up with Ground Hog Day? :-)
Why isn't Easter a national holiday? (Good Friday is a national holiday
in Canada and some other countries).

(Actually Ground Hog Day is the modern extension of both pagan and
Christian traditions.
In the ancient church it used to be called "Candlemass", and noted the
end of the period of Mary's ritual purification following the Nativity)

"John H." wrote in message
...
On 3 Dec 2005 18:42:06 -0800, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:28:48 -0800, wrote:


*JimH* wrote:
Damn it, we got it in the house and it looks just like a Christmas
tree.

I always laugh my arse off at the very notion of a "Christmas tree."

Glad the Christmas season brings you some joy.

I've even seen "Christmas Trees" set up in churches. Wow. Talk about
confused........

We use our tree as a place to put gifts for the needy. No confusion at
all. Prior to Christmas day, the gifts are distributed to children who
otherwise may not have any.

Do you find this offensive?

Not in the least. You make offerings to the tree, the tree blesses the
offerings (gifts), and then the tree gives them back so you can enjoy
them or give them to others. Very old tradition.


No offerings are made to a tree. That was an assinine comment, one
that I wouldn't have expected from you.

You do the same thing when you pass the plate on a Sunday morning. You
place offerings on the altar, but they don't just disappear to be spent
in Heaven- they are prayed over, blessed, etc and then put to use in
the very earthly pursuit of paying the light bill and the minister's
salary.

And providing food and lodging for the poor, along with other works.


The decorated tree in your living room is a "pagan" symbol of the
first
order. The ancient Celts and the Germanic tribes had a solstice
tradition where a small tree would be brought into the home and
showered with offerings (tinsel, jewelry, "ornaments") to honor the
Spirit of the Forest. The tree serves as a sort of altar.

There are other traditions also, Chuck. And, is there something
*wrong* with honoring a deity which cares for the forests?

Not at all. Are you comfortable "crowning" a tree? (with a special top
ornament)?

I am very comfortable with putting a decoration on the top of the
tree. You may call it 'crowning', but it's not a term I've ever heard.

As one of my friends, (a devout Christian but not a member of a
mainstream sect), points out, there is nothing in the Bible that
commands anybody to celebrate Christmas or even Easter. In fact, two
of
the four New Testament gospels don't even mention The Natvity, and
you
would think that hosts of angels descending from heaven wouldn't be
such a trivial detail that it was accidentally overlooked.


Have you read somewhere that all of the gospels in the New Testament
must say exactly the same thing?


No, but if they disagree it becomes a bit more difficult to accept
every single sentence in the Bible as the literal word of God, doesn't
it?

Do they disagree about the birth of Christ? I thought you said that
the Nativity wasn't mentioned. None of the good news in Iraq is
mentioned in the major media, but that doesn't mean it's not
happening.


The Virgin Birth story was added about 150-200 AD. Specifically to
allow Christianity to compete with the worship of Mithras. Funny thing,
at least to me, is that the most important story in the New Testament
has to be the Resurrection. (All four gospels mention that, right?). I
would think that the Easter story is diminished in importance if Jesus
were a supernatural being. IOW, "A supernatural being has the power to
rise from the dead." Now, put forth the theory that a loving divinity
makes it possible for common, garden-variety mortals to be saved,
through faith, from death and achieve some sort of "eternal life" and
you've actually got a bigger miracle to celebrate. Again, that's just
my opinion.


You're entitled to your opinion, and, as you say, that's just your
opinion.

Is there a religious passage somewhere that says, "Go thou, chop
down
a tree, bring it into your home, and make offereings unto it?" Nah,
probably not. In fact, I sort of recall that Jehovah was might upset
when some of his followers were venerating a golden calf.
It ain't that far from a calf to a tree.

Probably no passage saying same.

So what? There is no passage saying, "Buy thyself a boat and cruise
Puget Sound," You do it because you enjoy it. People put Christmas
trees in their homes because they enjoy them. For many, decorating the
tree is a family get-together time that is most enjoyable.


And I have no problem with people putting up a tree. When I go boating,
I don't pretend it's a religious observance. Neither should people
putting up a tree, unless they practice a religion that venerates
trees.

Well gee! Thanks for not having a problem with my Christmas tree. The
putting up of the tree is *part* of our observance of Christmas. I'm
pretending nothing.

And, the tree provides a centerpiece for the electric train going
round and round its base.


I guess the above met with your approval? No derogatory comments?

Oh, and take a good close look at that holly and mistletoe while
you're
at it. :-)

Holly provides a decorative touch on the fireplace mantel. Intermixed
with candles, lights, and other decorations it adds to the Christmas
cheer.

This was OK also?


Can anybody who considers Christmas a Christian and religious holiday
offer a good explanation for the inculsion of a venerated tree? I'd
be
fascinated to see it attempted.

http://www.christmasarchives.com/trees.html

...and because we like them. They provide a nice gathering spot for
family and friends and for the opening of gifts on Christmas morning.

Nothing wrong here either?


It's a shame you miss out on one of the great pleasures of life -
watching the grandchildren opening their presents by the Christmas
tree.

Have you ever watched your grandkids opening presents by the Christmas
tree, Chuck?

If not, you've missed out on a lot of joy.
'

Chuckie is just displaying the typical arrogance of an liebral


--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus
Christ.

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
John H. wrote:
How many of the 45 million
babies killed would have lived if they'd simply been born at the time
they were killed? More than a thousand? Ten percent? One percent?

--
John

And think of the poor sperm that oozes out...and the eggs wasted each
month.

You really don't understand the sacrement of marriage and its
obligations in
the Catholic church do you?


"narcissists will say ANYTHING, they will trash anyone in their own
self-justification, and then they will expect the immediate restoration of
the status quo. They will attack you (sometimes physically) and spew a
load
of bile, insult, abuse, contempt, threats, etc."

Chuck,
I don't believe many people think 12/25 is the day Christ was born. That is
the day they celebrate Christ's birthday.


wrote in message
oups.com...

John H. wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 16:59:05 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:



Harry, celebrating the birth of these Jews should be done on the day
of their births. I have no problem with that.

Christmas celebrates the day of one particular Jew's birth, Jesus. You
may find that galling, but it's a fact.

--
John

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Nonsense. As far as I know, there isn't a single biblical scholar
willing to state any specific
day of the year as the birthday of Jesus. December 25 was chosen to
allow the Christ-mass to supplant Germanic solstice festivals. And
*that's* a fact.

Christmas was rarely celebrated as anything more than just another
minor feast day on the annual religious calendar until some time in the
early 19th century. When you read Acts, do you see examples of early
Christians celebrating Christmas and Easter? How about Paul's letters
to all the early churches, do you read any exhortations to be sure to
remember to celebrate Christmas on December 25, or Easter on the first
Sunday after the first full moon following the spring equinox? Funny
how so many people *insist* that Jesus was born on December 25,
exactly, but don't have a problem with Easter wandering all around the
calendar from year to year.

On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 23:19:44 -0500, "P. Fritz"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On 3 Dec 2005 18:42:06 -0800, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:28:48 -0800, wrote:


*JimH* wrote:
Damn it, we got it in the house and it looks just like a Christmas
tree.

I always laugh my arse off at the very notion of a "Christmas tree."

Glad the Christmas season brings you some joy.

I've even seen "Christmas Trees" set up in churches. Wow. Talk about
confused........

We use our tree as a place to put gifts for the needy. No confusion at
all. Prior to Christmas day, the gifts are distributed to children who
otherwise may not have any.

Do you find this offensive?

Not in the least. You make offerings to the tree, the tree blesses the
offerings (gifts), and then the tree gives them back so you can enjoy
them or give them to others. Very old tradition.


No offerings are made to a tree. That was an assinine comment, one
that I wouldn't have expected from you.

You do the same thing when you pass the plate on a Sunday morning. You
place offerings on the altar, but they don't just disappear to be spent
in Heaven- they are prayed over, blessed, etc and then put to use in
the very earthly pursuit of paying the light bill and the minister's
salary.

And providing food and lodging for the poor, along with other works.


The decorated tree in your living room is a "pagan" symbol of the
first
order. The ancient Celts and the Germanic tribes had a solstice
tradition where a small tree would be brought into the home and
showered with offerings (tinsel, jewelry, "ornaments") to honor the
Spirit of the Forest. The tree serves as a sort of altar.

There are other traditions also, Chuck. And, is there something
*wrong* with honoring a deity which cares for the forests?

Not at all. Are you comfortable "crowning" a tree? (with a special top
ornament)?

I am very comfortable with putting a decoration on the top of the
tree. You may call it 'crowning', but it's not a term I've ever heard.

As one of my friends, (a devout Christian but not a member of a
mainstream sect), points out, there is nothing in the Bible that
commands anybody to celebrate Christmas or even Easter. In fact, two
of
the four New Testament gospels don't even mention The Natvity, and
you
would think that hosts of angels descending from heaven wouldn't be
such a trivial detail that it was accidentally overlooked.


Have you read somewhere that all of the gospels in the New Testament
must say exactly the same thing?


No, but if they disagree it becomes a bit more difficult to accept
every single sentence in the Bible as the literal word of God, doesn't
it?

Do they disagree about the birth of Christ? I thought you said that
the Nativity wasn't mentioned. None of the good news in Iraq is
mentioned in the major media, but that doesn't mean it's not
happening.


The Virgin Birth story was added about 150-200 AD. Specifically to
allow Christianity to compete with the worship of Mithras. Funny thing,
at least to me, is that the most important story in the New Testament
has to be the Resurrection. (All four gospels mention that, right?). I
would think that the Easter story is diminished in importance if Jesus
were a supernatural being. IOW, "A supernatural being has the power to
rise from the dead." Now, put forth the theory that a loving divinity
makes it possible for common, garden-variety mortals to be saved,
through faith, from death and achieve some sort of "eternal life" and
you've actually got a bigger miracle to celebrate. Again, that's just
my opinion.


You're entitled to your opinion, and, as you say, that's just your
opinion.

Is there a religious passage somewhere that says, "Go thou, chop
down
a tree, bring it into your home, and make offereings unto it?" Nah,
probably not. In fact, I sort of recall that Jehovah was might upset
when some of his followers were venerating a golden calf.
It ain't that far from a calf to a tree.

Probably no passage saying same.

So what? There is no passage saying, "Buy thyself a boat and cruise
Puget Sound," You do it because you enjoy it. People put Christmas
trees in their homes because they enjoy them. For many, decorating the
tree is a family get-together time that is most enjoyable.


And I have no problem with people putting up a tree. When I go boating,
I don't pretend it's a religious observance. Neither should people
putting up a tree, unless they practice a religion that venerates
trees.

Well gee! Thanks for not having a problem with my Christmas tree. The
putting up of the tree is *part* of our observance of Christmas. I'm
pretending nothing.

And, the tree provides a centerpiece for the electric train going
round and round its base.


I guess the above met with your approval? No derogatory comments?

Oh, and take a good close look at that holly and mistletoe while
you're
at it. :-)

Holly provides a decorative touch on the fireplace mantel. Intermixed
with candles, lights, and other decorations it adds to the Christmas
cheer.

This was OK also?


Can anybody who considers Christmas a Christian and religious holiday
offer a good explanation for the inculsion of a venerated tree? I'd
be
fascinated to see it attempted.

http://www.christmasarchives.com/trees.html

...and because we like them. They provide a nice gathering spot for
family and friends and for the opening of gifts on Christmas morning.

Nothing wrong here either?


It's a shame you miss out on one of the great pleasures of life -
watching the grandchildren opening their presents by the Christmas
tree.

Have you ever watched your grandkids opening presents by the Christmas
tree, Chuck?

If not, you've missed out on a lot of joy.
'

Chuckie is just displaying the typical arrogance of an liebral


--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus
Christ.


Well, I see he didn't respond to the post.

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

On 3 Dec 2005 20:05:20 -0800, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 19:02:25 -0800, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 17:58:26 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

John H. wrote:
How many of the 45 million
babies killed would have lived if they'd simply been born at the time
they were killed? More than a thousand? Ten percent? One percent?

--
John

And think of the poor sperm that oozes out...and the eggs wasted each month.

Hard question, huh? "It's just a fetus kicking, honey." Ring any
bells?

Here, I'll repeat one you seem to have missed.

Harry, all nations have their Holy Days. Our nation does too. If you
don't want to join in the celebration of Christ's birth, don't do it.


Our nation does not. "Congress shall make no law......" go back and
read the first amendment.

Looks like they blew it. Christmas is a federal Holy Day.


Nonsense. Christmas is a federal holiday, not holy day.

Yes, the entymology of "holiday" is closely associated with "holy day",
but if we are to accept your declaration of a national "holy day",
would you please explain the religious significance of the other
national "holy days?" Why not start with Labor Day? Fourth of July? (Is
that in the Bible somehwere)? Maybe follow up with Ground Hog Day? :-)
Why isn't Easter a national holiday? (Good Friday is a national holiday
in Canada and some other countries).

(Actually Ground Hog Day is the modern extension of both pagan and
Christian traditions.
In the ancient church it used to be called "Candlemass", and noted the
end of the period of Mary's ritual purification following the Nativity)

Closely associated? Like, maybe, dead on?

The other days you mention are 'celebration days', what the Germans
would call 'feiertag'. The word 'holiday' leeched its way onto those
days because of the language laziness found in most of us. You are
correct, those are not holy days.

Christmas, however, is a national Holy Day, and there is nothing wrong
with that.

So, I hope you have an enjoyable Christmas Holy Day, although it
sounds as though the Grinch has already paid you a visit.

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 23:19:44 -0500, "P. Fritz"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
. ..
On 3 Dec 2005 18:42:06 -0800, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:28:48 -0800, wrote:


*JimH* wrote:
Damn it, we got it in the house and it looks just like a
Christmas
tree.

I always laugh my arse off at the very notion of a "Christmas
tree."

Glad the Christmas season brings you some joy.

I've even seen "Christmas Trees" set up in churches. Wow. Talk
about
confused........

We use our tree as a place to put gifts for the needy. No
confusion at
all. Prior to Christmas day, the gifts are distributed to children
who
otherwise may not have any.

Do you find this offensive?

Not in the least. You make offerings to the tree, the tree blesses
the
offerings (gifts), and then the tree gives them back so you can
enjoy
them or give them to others. Very old tradition.


No offerings are made to a tree. That was an assinine comment, one
that I wouldn't have expected from you.

You do the same thing when you pass the plate on a Sunday morning.
You
place offerings on the altar, but they don't just disappear to be
spent
in Heaven- they are prayed over, blessed, etc and then put to use in
the very earthly pursuit of paying the light bill and the minister's
salary.

And providing food and lodging for the poor, along with other works.


The decorated tree in your living room is a "pagan" symbol of the
first
order. The ancient Celts and the Germanic tribes had a solstice
tradition where a small tree would be brought into the home and
showered with offerings (tinsel, jewelry, "ornaments") to honor
the
Spirit of the Forest. The tree serves as a sort of altar.

There are other traditions also, Chuck. And, is there something
*wrong* with honoring a deity which cares for the forests?

Not at all. Are you comfortable "crowning" a tree? (with a special
top
ornament)?

I am very comfortable with putting a decoration on the top of the
tree. You may call it 'crowning', but it's not a term I've ever
heard.

As one of my friends, (a devout Christian but not a member of a
mainstream sect), points out, there is nothing in the Bible that
commands anybody to celebrate Christmas or even Easter. In fact,
two
of
the four New Testament gospels don't even mention The Natvity,
and
you
would think that hosts of angels descending from heaven wouldn't
be
such a trivial detail that it was accidentally overlooked.


Have you read somewhere that all of the gospels in the New
Testament
must say exactly the same thing?


No, but if they disagree it becomes a bit more difficult to accept
every single sentence in the Bible as the literal word of God,
doesn't
it?

Do they disagree about the birth of Christ? I thought you said that
the Nativity wasn't mentioned. None of the good news in Iraq is
mentioned in the major media, but that doesn't mean it's not
happening.


The Virgin Birth story was added about 150-200 AD. Specifically to
allow Christianity to compete with the worship of Mithras. Funny
thing,
at least to me, is that the most important story in the New
Testament
has to be the Resurrection. (All four gospels mention that, right?).
I
would think that the Easter story is diminished in importance if
Jesus
were a supernatural being. IOW, "A supernatural being has the power
to
rise from the dead." Now, put forth the theory that a loving
divinity
makes it possible for common, garden-variety mortals to be saved,
through faith, from death and achieve some sort of "eternal life"
and
you've actually got a bigger miracle to celebrate. Again, that's
just
my opinion.


You're entitled to your opinion, and, as you say, that's just your
opinion.

Is there a religious passage somewhere that says, "Go thou, chop
down
a tree, bring it into your home, and make offereings unto it?"
Nah,
probably not. In fact, I sort of recall that Jehovah was might
upset
when some of his followers were venerating a golden calf.
It ain't that far from a calf to a tree.

Probably no passage saying same.

So what? There is no passage saying, "Buy thyself a boat and
cruise
Puget Sound," You do it because you enjoy it. People put Christmas
trees in their homes because they enjoy them. For many, decorating
the
tree is a family get-together time that is most enjoyable.


And I have no problem with people putting up a tree. When I go
boating,
I don't pretend it's a religious observance. Neither should people
putting up a tree, unless they practice a religion that venerates
trees.

Well gee! Thanks for not having a problem with my Christmas tree.
The
putting up of the tree is *part* of our observance of Christmas. I'm
pretending nothing.

And, the tree provides a centerpiece for the electric train going
round and round its base.


I guess the above met with your approval? No derogatory comments?

Oh, and take a good close look at that holly and mistletoe while
you're
at it. :-)

Holly provides a decorative touch on the fireplace mantel.
Intermixed
with candles, lights, and other decorations it adds to the
Christmas
cheer.

This was OK also?


Can anybody who considers Christmas a Christian and religious
holiday
offer a good explanation for the inculsion of a venerated tree?
I'd
be
fascinated to see it attempted.

http://www.christmasarchives.com/trees.html

...and because we like them. They provide a nice gathering spot
for
family and friends and for the opening of gifts on Christmas
morning.

Nothing wrong here either?


It's a shame you miss out on one of the great pleasures of life -
watching the grandchildren opening their presents by the Christmas
tree.

Have you ever watched your grandkids opening presents by the
Christmas
tree, Chuck?

If not, you've missed out on a lot of joy.
'

Chuckie is just displaying the typical arrogance of an liebral


--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus
Christ.


Well, I see he didn't respond to the post.


Liberalism.......The fear that somewhere, someone is having a good time.
The goal of Liberalism.....To have everyone share equally in misery.


--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus
Christ.

John H. wrote:


(You are one of the *very* few people I know that can state when
Easter occurs. Congratulations. Must have been a good Catholic
upbringing!)

Nah. Merely an appreciation for the lunar calendar. :-)