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Jim wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Jim wrote:

"noah" wrote in message
...
On 08 Aug 2003 00:28:19 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

I have yet to see a lib who is anti union. Coincidence?

So exactly why are you such a strong union supporter Chuck? Because you are
a lib?

Because I believe stongly in reaching agreement through negotiation.
Negotiation is only meaningful between two parties with equal power. If the
average worker were sent to report,, individually, to a comittee of suits and
explain why he thought he deserved a certain income, there would be no equity
in power. The management would be in a position to influence the worker far
more than an individual worker could ever influence the management.

And just how have the unions improved the lives of workers in the 21st
century?

Puhleeze. The 21st century is two years old already. Let's look at the 20th,
and compare the average worker's workweek, health benefits, standard of living,
etc in 1900 vs. 1999. If you see no difference, you will never see any benefit
that was provided by unions. The changes were not brought about by the
magnificent generosity of employers. Unions haven't
"held back" improved conditions that employers have been desperate to provide.

Why should all union workers get the same pay increases despite their
contributions to
the company? Why should slackers get the same as the go-getters?

It's called the principle of collective bargaining. All the workers, together,
negotiate more powerfully. The majority of workers voluntarily agree to accept
a common pay rate. The go-getters are rewarded more than the slackers. The
go-getters are more likely to be promoted into management, (where they will be
free of the union influence.) :-)

Management has done the same thing for
decades, with "Associations." A group of steel mills, mining companies,
shipping companies, etc. band together to try to keep wages suppressed. When
all the employers in an industry make a common wage offer to the employees, is
that "leftism", or just "good business"?

Why should the companies with lousy working environments get by with paying as
little as companies with more progressive management?

What do the unions do with all those dues that members blindly pay every
week?

Run the union business office. Fund a union retirement plan for union workers.
Pay union death and disability benefits to the families of workers killed or
injured on the job. Lobby for pro-labor legislation, just as management lobbies
for anti-labor laws.
Any union member is free to ask for an accounting of union income and expense.

Just a few of my questions. Take you time in answering them.

No time needed. Next time, try to think up some tough ones. :-)

When you're good, you're damned good. )

My previous job (14 years) was management. I was laid off, and took a
temporary job in a construction crew in my field. It has been a long
time since I went home that tired.

Any management or professional jackass that thinks that blue collar
workers "push boxes around", doesn't have a clue.

Most "professionals" (in my experience) are far removed from the
reality of hard work. Egotism and stupidity set in, and the "whine"
is heard from coast to coast.

I know it's cliche, but every "anti-union whiner" should slip on a
pair of steel-toed mocassins and try to keep up. They couldn't.

What the heck does being able to do a hard days work have to do with unions?

I worked as a garbage collector for 2 summers and as a factory worker for 3 summers
in
high school and college. Hard work. Long days. No union.

Imagine that. But I can tell you countless stories of auto workers (union)
sleeping on
the job. But we won't get into that, OK?

It's interesting to me that you don't hear union or labor workers
begrudging the life-style of management or professionals, but the
reverse is not true. They don't have a clue, and don't want one.
It would upset their lifestyle.

Exactly where did anyone begrudge the lifestyles of union workers?

The next time your toilet doesn't flush, your car won't start, or you
want to build an office building- call your proctologist. Maybe he
can help, but he's not cheap.

Actually I will call a non union plumber, mechanic or GC. I will get good work at
a
fair price.

Are you a union worker Noah? Did I strike a nerve?

I'm a union worker. I'm also a union consultant. I'm also a union
member. In fact, I'm a member of several unions. I hold a journeyman's
card in one of the skilled construction trades.

For part of my living, I consult and provide marketing, advertising and
PR services to organizations that represent unions or provide expert
services to unions.

I have two college degrees, one from a fairly large public university in
the Midwest and one from an Ivy League university. Neither of my degrees
were from trade schools within those universities.

I'm also a yellow-dog Democrat.

I'm moderate fiscally but quite liberal on social issues.

Oh, and I spent some time some years ago working for Saul Alinsky.

Smoke that.

Why should I care what you do or have done?

Obviously, unions and union members "strike a nerve" with you. Well, I
am a union member personified, fella. I pay my dues with a smile,
because I know that my union is the only organization in my life that is
watching out for me and my interests.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

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