"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Jim wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Jim wrote:

"noah" wrote in message
...
On 08 Aug 2003 00:28:19 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

I have yet to see a lib who is anti union. Coincidence?

So exactly why are you such a strong union supporter Chuck? Because you are
a lib?

Because I believe stongly in reaching agreement through negotiation.
Negotiation is only meaningful between two parties with equal power. If the
average worker were sent to report,, individually, to a comittee of suits and
explain why he thought he deserved a certain income, there would be no equity
in power. The management would be in a position to influence the worker far
more than an individual worker could ever influence the management.

And just how have the unions improved the lives of workers in the 21st
century?

Puhleeze. The 21st century is two years old already. Let's look at the 20th,
and compare the average worker's workweek, health benefits, standard of
living,
etc in 1900 vs. 1999. If you see no difference, you will never see any benefit
that was provided by unions. The changes were not brought about by the
magnificent generosity of employers. Unions haven't
"held back" improved conditions that employers have been desperate to provide.

Why should all union workers get the same pay increases despite their
contributions to
the company? Why should slackers get the same as the go-getters?

It's called the principle of collective bargaining. All the workers, together,
negotiate more powerfully. The majority of workers voluntarily agree to accept
a common pay rate. The go-getters are rewarded more than the slackers. The
go-getters are more likely to be promoted into management, (where they will be
free of the union influence.) :-)

Management has done the same thing for
decades, with "Associations." A group of steel mills, mining companies,
shipping companies, etc. band together to try to keep wages suppressed. When
all the employers in an industry make a common wage offer to the employees, is
that "leftism", or just "good business"?

Why should the companies with lousy working environments get by with paying as
little as companies with more progressive management?

What do the unions do with all those dues that members blindly pay every
week?


Run the union business office. Fund a union retirement plan for union workers.
Pay union death and disability benefits to the families of workers killed or
injured on the job. Lobby for pro-labor legislation, just as management
lobbies
for anti-labor laws.
Any union member is free to ask for an accounting of union income and expense.

Just a few of my questions. Take you time in answering them.

No time needed. Next time, try to think up some tough ones. :-)

When you're good, you're damned good. )

My previous job (14 years) was management. I was laid off, and took a
temporary job in a construction crew in my field. It has been a long
time since I went home that tired.

Any management or professional jackass that thinks that blue collar
workers "push boxes around", doesn't have a clue.

Most "professionals" (in my experience) are far removed from the
reality of hard work. Egotism and stupidity set in, and the "whine"
is heard from coast to coast.

I know it's cliche, but every "anti-union whiner" should slip on a
pair of steel-toed mocassins and try to keep up. They couldn't.


What the heck does being able to do a hard days work have to do with unions?

I worked as a garbage collector for 2 summers and as a factory worker for 3
summers
in
high school and college. Hard work. Long days. No union.

Imagine that. But I can tell you countless stories of auto workers (union)
sleeping on
the job. But we won't get into that, OK?




It's interesting to me that you don't hear union or labor workers
begrudging the life-style of management or professionals, but the
reverse is not true. They don't have a clue, and don't want one.
It would upset their lifestyle.

Exactly where did anyone begrudge the lifestyles of union workers?




The next time your toilet doesn't flush, your car won't start, or you
want to build an office building- call your proctologist. Maybe he
can help, but he's not cheap.

Actually I will call a non union plumber, mechanic or GC. I will get good work
at
a
fair price.

Are you a union worker Noah? Did I strike a nerve?


I'm a union worker. I'm also a union consultant. I'm also a union
member. In fact, I'm a member of several unions. I hold a journeyman's
card in one of the skilled construction trades.

For part of my living, I consult and provide marketing, advertising and
PR services to organizations that represent unions or provide expert
services to unions.

I have two college degrees, one from a fairly large public university in
the Midwest and one from an Ivy League university. Neither of my degrees
were from trade schools within those universities.

I'm also a yellow-dog Democrat.

I'm moderate fiscally but quite liberal on social issues.

Oh, and I spent some time some years ago working for Saul Alinsky.

Smoke that.



Why should I care what you do or have done?


Obviously, unions and union members "strike a nerve" with you. Well, I
am a union member personified, fella. I pay my dues with a smile,
because I know that my union is the only organization in my life that is
watching out for me and my interests.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.


Yawn. As I said *fella*, I could give a rats ass what you do or did.

Unions do not strike a nerve with me. Based on your venomous replies, as well as those
of Noah, I did strike a nerve with you *fellas*.

OK *fella*?

You write for a union rag, Harry. What *union* do you belong to?


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Jim wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Jim wrote:

"noah" wrote in message
...
On 08 Aug 2003 00:28:19 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

I have yet to see a lib who is anti union. Coincidence?

So exactly why are you such a strong union supporter Chuck?
Because you are
a lib?

Because I believe stongly in reaching agreement through
negotiation.
Negotiation is only meaningful between two parties with equal
power. If the
average worker were sent to report,, individually, to a comittee of
suits and
explain why he thought he deserved a certain income, there would be
no equity
in power. The management would be in a position to influence the
worker far
more than an individual worker could ever influence the management.

And just how have the unions improved the lives of workers in the
21st
century?

Puhleeze. The 21st century is two years old already. Let's look at
the 20th,
and compare the average worker's workweek, health benefits,
standard of living,
etc in 1900 vs. 1999. If you see no difference, you will never see
any benefit
that was provided by unions. The changes were not brought about by
the
magnificent generosity of employers. Unions haven't
"held back" improved conditions that employers have been desperate
to provide.

Why should all union workers get the same pay increases despite
their
contributions to
the company? Why should slackers get the same as the go-getters?

It's called the principle of collective bargaining. All the
workers, together,
negotiate more powerfully. The majority of workers voluntarily
agree to accept
a common pay rate. The go-getters are rewarded more than the
slackers. The
go-getters are more likely to be promoted into management, (where
they will be
free of the union influence.) :-)

Management has done the same thing for
decades, with "Associations." A group of steel mills, mining
companies,
shipping companies, etc. band together to try to keep wages
suppressed. When
all the employers in an industry make a common wage offer to the
employees, is
that "leftism", or just "good business"?

Why should the companies with lousy working environments get by
with paying as
little as companies with more progressive management?

What do the unions do with all those dues that members blindly pay
every
week?


Run the union business office. Fund a union retirement plan for
union workers.
Pay union death and disability benefits to the families of workers
killed or
injured on the job. Lobby for pro-labor legislation, just as
management lobbies
for anti-labor laws.
Any union member is free to ask for an accounting of union income
and expense.

Just a few of my questions. Take you time in answering them.

No time needed. Next time, try to think up some tough ones. :-)

When you're good, you're damned good. )

My previous job (14 years) was management. I was laid off, and took
a
temporary job in a construction crew in my field. It has been a
long
time since I went home that tired.

Any management or professional jackass that thinks that blue collar
workers "push boxes around", doesn't have a clue.

Most "professionals" (in my experience) are far removed from the
reality of hard work. Egotism and stupidity set in, and the "whine"
is heard from coast to coast.

I know it's cliche, but every "anti-union whiner" should slip on a
pair of steel-toed mocassins and try to keep up. They couldn't.


What the heck does being able to do a hard days work have to do with
unions?

I worked as a garbage collector for 2 summers and as a factory worker
for 3 summers
in
high school and college. Hard work. Long days. No union.

Imagine that. But I can tell you countless stories of auto workers
(union)
sleeping on
the job. But we won't get into that, OK?




It's interesting to me that you don't hear union or labor workers
begrudging the life-style of management or professionals, but the
reverse is not true. They don't have a clue, and don't want one.
It would upset their lifestyle.

Exactly where did anyone begrudge the lifestyles of union workers?




The next time your toilet doesn't flush, your car won't start, or
you
want to build an office building- call your proctologist. Maybe he
can help, but he's not cheap.

Actually I will call a non union plumber, mechanic or GC. I will get
good work at
a
fair price.

Are you a union worker Noah? Did I strike a nerve?


I'm a union worker. I'm also a union consultant. I'm also a union
member. In fact, I'm a member of several unions. I hold a journeyman's
card in one of the skilled construction trades.

For part of my living, I consult and provide marketing, advertising and
PR services to organizations that represent unions or provide expert
services to unions.

I have two college degrees, one from a fairly large public university
in
the Midwest and one from an Ivy League university. Neither of my
degrees
were from trade schools within those universities.

I'm also a yellow-dog Democrat.

I'm moderate fiscally but quite liberal on social issues.

Oh, and I spent some time some years ago working for Saul Alinsky.

Smoke that.



Why should I care what you do or have done?


Obviously, unions and union members "strike a nerve" with you. Well, I
am a union member personified, fella. I pay my dues with a smile,
because I know that my union is the only organization in my life that is
watching out for me and my interests.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

Why do you think anyone in here cares about your resume or credentials? If
they are true, who cares? If they are not, who cares?

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
I'm a union worker. I'm also a union consultant. I'm also a union
member. In fact, I'm a member of several unions. I hold a journeyman's
card in one of the skilled construction trades.

For part of my living, I consult and provide marketing, advertising and
PR services to organizations that represent unions or provide expert
services to unions.

I have two college degrees, one from a fairly large public university in
the Midwest and one from an Ivy League university. Neither of my degrees
were from trade schools within those universities.

I'm also a yellow-dog Democrat.

I'm moderate fiscally but quite liberal on social issues.

Oh, and I spent some time some years ago working for Saul Alinsky.

Smoke that.

Apologies in advance for responding to Gould in Jim's response - Gould is
already filtered but I can't let some of his uninformed responses go
unanswered...

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Unions may have had a place in society at one time, but they are not
counterproductive. All they do is breed nepotism and interfere with
free
competition. How is it that someone who moves boxes around on a dock
can
make as much as I make with two degrees and state licensure as a
Forensic
Engineer? Granted, cost of living has some factor, but explain to me
how
the two jobs are of equal worth. Unskilled labor vs. technical and
legal
analysis.

Huh? What happened to

free
competition. ?

If the box movers can convince society that their services are worth
more than
Forensic Engineers, more power to them.
Naturally, jealous Forensic Engineers will disagree.

By the way, some of those guys "moving boxes" (longshore work is far
more
technical and dangerous than that, btw) probably have more education
than many
engineers. Some of them used to have white collar jobs, before "free
competition" prevailed and the guys working for $2/hour US in Russia or
India
won the engineering and accounting jobs.

No. my problem was the fact that the longshoremen making 90K a year were
fighting the implementation of the technology used by UPS and FedEx every
day - a lot of their practices are yesterday's technology. In addition, I
don't think it was a coincidenct that the timing of the work stoppage
coincided with election time...

Where I live, you can't do random drug testing at the fire dept.
because the
union won't allow it. Some stoned jackass is going to kill somebody
one of
these days as a direct result of union policy.

When that happens, the jackass and his two immediate supervisors should
be
fired- or maybe jailed. You can't sit around the firehouse and get
stoned
without somebody knowing about it. You might find it surprising, but pee
tests
are almost TOTALLY defeatable. There's an OTC product called "Clean Pee"
that
works almost 100 percent of the time. (It's probably even sold in drug
stores
that require their new hires to take a pee test). For $10 bucks, a clean
and
sober buddy will pee in the cup for you, or pee into a test tube you cap
and
take into the restroom. Why would this be news to a guy working in
forensics?

Exactly the reason that I don't even acknowlege urine tests - I use blood
evidence. The fact that you talk about them as if they would be used in a
forensic investigation shows that you are the one who does not know
procedures. Blood evidence is required, and immediately after the incident
or at random if applicable. And BTW, one of the firemen has a patch growing
in his yard, and everyone at the firehouse knows about it, but no one will
do anything about it...

Why do unions cry every time
someone wants to put a job out for competitive bid? Because they can't
compete. They are a burden to society, and anyone who is in a union is
supporting the ideals, making them leftist by association.

Who hires Forensic Engineers? Sounds like a civil service job to me. If
so,
good thing *you* are required to submit a competitive bid every time an
opportunity to ply your trade arises. That should keep your income
suitably
suppressed. We wouldn't want some government agency to guarantee you a
certain
annual income and benefits (all at taxpayers expense) along with some
measure
of protection against unjust or politically motivated firing... those
things
might discourage free competition for *your* job, and make you a leftist
by
association.

Attorneys, insurance companies, and large corporations are my primary
clients, although I will occasionally work for an individual if they want to
foot the bill. And yes, I also do work for many government agencies and
municipalities. I am in the private sector, and woek 60 to 80 hours per
week, thank you. And once again, you are showing your ignorance to the
engineering practice. It is illegal for an entity to retain my services on
the basis of price. Engineers are required to submit a statement of
qualifications, and are chosen on that basis. Once the firm has been
selected, then we negotiate a fee for services. Granted, I can't charge
twice what my competitor does, but I will say that my firm is the most
expensive in our region, and we still manage to hold an 80% market share.
Furthermore, unions are not necessary for protection from unjust
firings...there is federal legislation in place for that already, and our
so-effective court system if you wish to pursue it in civil court...

and for the record, yes I am a white collar worker now, with a salary and a
bonus dependent on the company's profitability. I do not get raises or
bonuses on the basis of a predetermined schedule (unions) and if I quit
producing, I'm out on my can, as it should be...when others around me quit
producing, I toss them out so they don't sponge my profits...

however, I put myself through college, working 45 hours a week on average,
doing things like roughnecking, road construction, concrete formwork,
framing, and carpentry, so don't tell me I don't know what it's like to work
for a living...what I do know is that it's the best motivation to get a
white collar career...

Apologies in advance for responding to Gould in Jim's response - Gould is
already filtered but I can't let some of his uninformed responses go
unanswered...

Well there's a good trick. "I'm going to call BS on everything you say, but
don't even bother to offer any counterpoints because your butt is big time
filtered." :-)


No. my problem was the fact that the longshoremen making 90K a year were
fighting the implementation of the technology used by UPS and FedEx every
day - a lot of their practices are yesterday's technology. In addition, I
don't think it was a coincidenct that the timing of the work stoppage
coincided with election time...

What? No wonder this guy's got me on filter.
We don't speak the same language. There has been nothing in this thread to this
point referring to a specific work stoppage.
Where I live, you can't do random drug testing at the fire dept.
because the
union won't allow it. Some stoned jackass is going to kill somebody
one of
these days as a direct result of union policy.

When that happens, the jackass and his two immediate supervisors should
be
fired- or maybe jailed. You can't sit around the firehouse and get
stoned
without somebody knowing about it. You might find it surprising, but pee
tests
are almost TOTALLY defeatable. There's an OTC product called "Clean Pee"
that
works almost 100 percent of the time. (It's probably even sold in drug
stores
that require their new hires to take a pee test). For $10 bucks, a clean
and
sober buddy will pee in the cup for you, or pee into a test tube you cap
and
take into the restroom. Why would this be news to a guy working in
forensics?

Exactly the reason that I don't even acknowlege urine tests - I use blood
evidence. The fact that you talk about them as if they would be used in a
forensic investigation shows that you are the one who does not know
procedures.

Once again, a complete disconnect.
I said that urine tests were hogwash and that shouldn't be news to a forensic
engineer....and filterman comes back with


Blood evidence is required, and immediately after the incident
or at random if applicable. And BTW, one of the firemen has a patch growing
in his yard, and everyone at the firehouse knows about it, but no one will
do anything about it...

Why do unions cry every time
someone wants to put a job out for competitive bid? Because they can't
compete. They are a burden to society, and anyone who is in a union is
supporting the ideals, making them leftist by association.

Who hires Forensic Engineers? Sounds like a civil service job to me. If
so,
good thing *you* are required to submit a competitive bid every time an
opportunity to ply your trade arises. That should keep your income
suitably
suppressed. We wouldn't want some government agency to guarantee you a
certain
annual income and benefits (all at taxpayers expense) along with some
measure
of protection against unjust or politically motivated firing... those
things
might discourage free competition for *your* job, and make you a leftist
by
association.

Attorneys, insurance companies, and large corporations are my primary
clients, although I will occasionally work for an individual if they want to
foot the bill. And yes, I also do work for many government agencies and
municipalities. I am in the private sector, and woek 60 to 80 hours per
week, thank you. And once again, you are showing your ignorance to the
engineering practice. It is illegal for an entity to retain my services on
the basis of price. Engineers are required to submit a statement of
qualifications, and are chosen on that basis. Once the firm has been
selected, then we negotiate a fee for services. Granted, I can't charge
twice what my competitor does, but I will say that my firm is the most
expensive in our region, and we still manage to hold an 80% market share.
Furthermore, unions are not necessary for protection from unjust
firings...there is federal legislation in place for that already, and our
so-effective court system if you wish to pursue it in civil court...

and for the record, yes I am a white collar worker now, with a salary and a
bonus dependent on the company's profitability. I do not get raises or
bonuses on the basis of a predetermined schedule (unions) and if I quit
producing, I'm out on my can, as it should be...when others around me quit
producing, I toss them out so they don't sponge my profits...

however, I put myself through college, working 45 hours a week on average,
doing things like roughnecking, road construction, concrete formwork,
framing, and carpentry, so don't tell me I don't know what it's like to work
for a living...what I do know is that it's the best motivation to get a
white collar career...






Our forefathers framed a government based upon separation of powers.
Will Congress Defend the Constitution of the United States?

http://larouchein2004.net/pages/othe...09dodreorg.htm

wrote:

however, I put myself through college, working 45 hours a week on average,
doing things like roughnecking, road construction, concrete formwork,
framing, and carpentry, so don't tell me I don't know what it's like to work
for a living...what I do know is that it's the best motivation to get a
white collar career...

Working for a living is the best motivation for getting a white color job?

Hope you have a secretary with a high school diploma writing your
reports. If not, lawyers must have a field day with your lack of
grammar, spelling and logic skills with the written word.



--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

NOYB wrote:

You write for a union rag, Harry. What *union* do you belong to?

My writing has appeared in the publications of at least two dozen labor
unions, and at least that many commercial magazines.

You sure ask a lot of personal questions for a fella who is afraid to
post with his real name. As I stated, I am a dues-paying member of more
than one labor union. Oh, and I'm also a card-carrying member of the
American Civil Liberties Union.





--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

Harry Krause wrote:

wrote:

however, I put myself through college, working 45 hours a week on average,
doing things like roughnecking, road construction, concrete formwork,
framing, and carpentry, so don't tell me I don't know what it's like to work
for a living...what I do know is that it's the best motivation to get a
white collar career...

Working for a living is the best motivation for getting a white color job?

Hope you have a secretary with a high school diploma writing your
reports. If not, lawyers must have a field day with your lack of
grammar, spelling and logic skills with the written word.



Or even a white collar job. Heheh.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

damn, harry.

the only thing you lack to make your anti-american resume complete is a
canadian passport and a rainbow sticker on your car.

chris

Subject: What Makes a Political Liberal
From: Harry Krause
Date: 8/8/03 2:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

NOYB wrote:

You write for a union rag, Harry. What *union* do you belong to?

My writing has appeared in the publications of at least two dozen labor
unions, and at least that many commercial magazines.

You sure ask a lot of personal questions for a fella who is afraid to
post with his real name. As I stated, I am a dues-paying member of more
than one labor union. Oh, and I'm also a card-carrying member of the
American Civil Liberties Union.





--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

gould,

there may be problems (much of them overhyped) with some unions in the modern
economy.

but, what our idealogical friends here fail to understand is that non-union
blue collar labor needs the unions. for example, i live in houston and have
friends that work as operators in the refineries. some are union, some are
non-union......it depends on the refinery.

"amazingly", total compensation is roughly the same between the two. i dont
think this total compensation for non-union would stay constant or increase at
the same rate/year if the union ceased to exist. of course, there is no way to
really prove this, but it is a hunch i am inflicted with.

im sure there are some in here that would beg to differ........and it is all
theoretical. they would say the equal compensation is proof that unions are not
required anymore. i disagree; i dont trust corporate management, and i think
generally history is on my side. non-union wages would fall like a rock without
the union setting the bar......

chris

Subject: What Makes a Political Liberal
From: (Gould 0738)
Date: 8/7/03 7:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

I guess you don't have too much faith in your abilities or you are just a
poor
performer.

Wouldn't know. For 90% of my career to date I have been either self employed
or
in management. I haven't worked for wages since 1973. My income has always
been
from partnership and corporate income, royalties, sales commissions, rents,
etc. How well do I do? Let's just say I routinely make subtantially more than
those folks who "move boxes around."

Very few people can do what I have done, and can do, to earn a living. I
personally don't need a union, but others might. WE should all be aware of
what
needs may be present in society beyond our own personal sphere.

Look at your next two paragraphs and consider how they unintentionally
contradict one another:

I have never had a problem negotiating pay increases based on my
contributions. Most
hard workers who contribute to the bottom line do not have problems either.
They
negotiate one on one based on their skills and contributions.

Unions lead to mediocrity. Why work hard or perform over and beyond? You
will get the
same pay increase no matter what.

In one paragraph you detail how you take pride in doing a good job and making
a
contribution. In the next, you surmise that
union workers are incapable of being motivated by the same factors.

And the collective bargaining leads to lower productivity and mediocrity.
If
you need
it, fine. Most people with skills and talent don't need a group to bargain
for them.

Slave wages lead to low productivity, too.


You forgot the part about padding their pockets. That is where most of the
money goes.

Got a specific example, or just a quick sound byte?

Just a few of my questions. Take you time in answering them.

No time needed. Next time, try to think up some tough ones. :-)

Perhaps if you took your time you could have provided some better answers.


And if Jesus, Buddha, and Vishnu all knocked on your front door and told you
that unions have some useful purposes these days, you'd still remain
unconvinced and take up atheism. :-)