First of all, I am new here and brand new to sailing. I was recently
given a 20-year old Hunter 23 that has "the infamous wing keel". (Its
former owner was given an ultimatum by his 'mate' and told that he
could either keep her or the boat...and he figured that it was cheaper
to keep her. Thus I became the owner of a sailboat. (I know that
acquiring a boat before you have much on-water experience violates one
of the basic tenets of sailing....however, what's a guy to do when he
is GIVEN a sailboat.

While I have always had a big desire to learn to sail and to own a
sailboat, I have just now had the opportunity to do so. I have read
quite a bit and I will attend a Basic Keel Boat class in September.)
Over the last couple of years, I have read a few books and a number of
articles on sailing but there are many things that remain a mystery to
me. One of them is the wing(ed) keel, its purpose, and how it works.
Can someone explain it. Thanks in advance. Jim

Jim,
First - do not post a real @ddress on the usenet, the spambots will grab
it.

Next - your plan to take a keel boat class is real good.

Finally - wing keels come in two kinds.
High level competition versions that have hydrodynamic elements at the
bottom of the keel to improve performance. To explain what these are
actually trying to do will take several pages and if you don't already
know how a sailboat works most of the discussion will be meaningless. -And-
Formed ballast added to the bottom of a short keel. Though the
manufactures try to make this look like a hydrodynamic element, the real
reason is to get ballast low without the penalty of deeper draft. These
do work better than a Sheel Keel (big wup). Like the version above, it
does provide a dynamic draft increase with angle of heal but it is not a
significant gain. The wings on this version keel are great for two
things- collecting all weeds you sail through - making the boat stand up
more easily when aground.

If you look up the PHRF (Performance Handicap Racing Fleet) ratings for
boats built with conventional and wing keel, you will find that often
the wing is getting a boost because its performance is off from the deep
keel version.

Summation: Does it matter to you - NO If where you expect to sail is
not always deep water, then the wing is a great idea.

Enjoy the boat, but please be aware the sailing can be addictive, habit
forming and can cause you to be very irratable when you are surrounded
by people that have no clue (or clew).

Matt Colie A.Sloop "Bonne Ide'e" S2- 7.9 #1
Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and and Pathological Sailor

Jim wrote:

First of all, I am new here and brand new to sailing. I was recently
given a 20-year old Hunter 23 that has "the infamous wing keel". (Its
former owner was given an ultimatum by his 'mate' and told that he
could either keep her or the boat...and he figured that it was cheaper
to keep her. Thus I became the owner of a sailboat. (I know that
acquiring a boat before you have much on-water experience violates one
of the basic tenets of sailing....however, what's a guy to do when he
is GIVEN a sailboat.

While I have always had a big desire to learn to sail and to own a
sailboat, I have just now had the opportunity to do so. I have read
quite a bit and I will attend a Basic Keel Boat class in September.)
Over the last couple of years, I have read a few books and a number of
articles on sailing but there are many things that remain a mystery to
me. One of them is the wing(ed) keel, its purpose, and how it works.
Can someone explain it. Thanks in advance. Jim

Ok, I'm really embarrassed now , but I think that I should have used
the term "swing keel". See the link shown below. This is what the thing
looks like. The caption on the photo says "Infamous Wing Wing
Keel"---which is were I got the term in the first place. I think that
this "keel" is more like a centerboard or daggerboard (maybe). Anyway,
apparently this keel has at least two positions completely "up" and
completey "down" ---or maybe more---I dunno. Anyway, assuming that
"SWING KEEL" is the correct term, how dos the thing work and how do you
let it up and down (...maybe with a rope...er...I mean a sheet).
Thanks, Jim

http://www.sailboatowners.com/album/...51942590&bts=T

Jim,

If that is the biggest mistake you make, you are doing very well.

Yes, the picture is a swing keel. Because of its design often refered
to as a swing wing keel (just to confuse the public). It is not called
a centerboard because :
It is part of the ballast system.
It does not pull into an internal trunk.

Daggerboards are only a variety of center board that gets pushed
straight down.

H23 came with several keel choices. Any movable kind, has a winch
affair somewhere (I know where to look on a Cat 22). I can not tell you
where to look specifically. You will probably find a penant some where
over the keel that leads to this winch - Good Luck

Just one passing remark, notice that Jim's keel is resting the trailer.
That is what to do. Do not transport the boat with the keel lifted by
the winch. It will not take a jolt and may well dmage the winch. But,
have a launch/retrieval check list and be sure that this is an item on
both sides.

Matt Colie


Jim wrote:
Ok, I'm really embarrassed now , but I think that I should have used
the term "swing keel". See the link shown below. This is what the thing
looks like. The caption on the photo says "Infamous Wing Wing
Keel"---which is were I got the term in the first place. I think that
this "keel" is more like a centerboard or daggerboard (maybe). Anyway,
apparently this keel has at least two positions completely "up" and
completey "down" ---or maybe more---I dunno. Anyway, assuming that
"SWING KEEL" is the correct term, how dos the thing work and how do you
let it up and down (...maybe with a rope...er...I mean a sheet).
Thanks, Jim

http://www.sailboatowners.com/album/...51942590&bts=T

Now that we have decieded what keel you have, we can go through some points.

Swings are usually a little slower than drop keel (daggerboard) boats. Due
to the added drag caused by the "slot/s" and in some cases cable.

They are however excellent if you bump the bottom as there is less chance of
doing harm to the "case" as they just fold aft.

A point of interest here is that the pic you show is a "Swing" with a small
"wing" attached. As Matt mentioned before the wing helps to get wieght lower
and in the case of this particular one I would think the designers have
developed it to assist in minimising the various vorecies that would be
occuring around that area as well.

Frankly though, I dont like the design in the picture as it is not one that
lends itself to the beaching of the boat, which is one of the many good
reasons to own a trailerable. Though it is probably quite stable with the
keel up.


DP
"Jim" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, I'm really embarrassed now , but I think that I should have used
the term "swing keel". See the link shown below. This is what the thing
looks like. The caption on the photo says "Infamous Wing Wing
Keel"---which is were I got the term in the first place. I think that
this "keel" is more like a centerboard or daggerboard (maybe). Anyway,
apparently this keel has at least two positions completely "up" and
completey "down" ---or maybe more---I dunno. Anyway, assuming that
"SWING KEEL" is the correct term, how dos the thing work and how do you
let it up and down (...maybe with a rope...er...I mean a sheet).
Thanks, Jim

http://www.sailboatowners.com/album/...51942590&bts=T

My question is how DO you raise and lower it. My Catalina 22 has a winch
with a cable that goes through the hole in the floor with the rubber hose on
it and attaches to the bottom of the keel so you can raise and lower it from
just inside the companion way. (This design IMO is one of the stupidest
things I have ever seen.. If they have to put a 3 inch hole in the bottom of
the boat then why didn't they make the tube that the cable goes through out
of something solid that goes up above the waterline? All too often an unwary
Catalina 22 owner finds their boat on the bottom of the lake because the
hose has somehow managed to come off, but I digress.) In the picture of the
H23 swing keel that was posted appears to have no cable at the bottom of the
keel and no place to put one. Is there some device that pushes the keel up
from the front? That would seem to be a difficult place for good leverage,
How do they work? How heavy is the keel? A Catalina 22 swing keel can weigh
well over 500 pounds.

--
Alan Stewart
Chief Information Officer
K2 Systems Group

www.k2systemsgroup.com
T: 512.238.8700
F: 512.238.8701
C: 512.585.8887

K2 Systems Group manufactures custom coating equipment designed for the
offset, DI and digital print markets. Since this equipment is so unique and
customized for the printing application, there is a limited number of
suppliers for certain components that are incorporated into this equipment.
While K2 makes every attempt to provide customers with equipment as quickly
as possible, delays experienced from our vendors due to the demand for this
equipment can translate into unforeseen delays. Such delays can occur at
any point in the production process. Any estimate of any date of completion
or delivery is subject to change at any time based on availability of
components and on production schedule.
"d parker" wrote in message
...
Now that we have decieded what keel you have, we can go through some
points.

Swings are usually a little slower than drop keel (daggerboard) boats. Due
to the added drag caused by the "slot/s" and in some cases cable.

They are however excellent if you bump the bottom as there is less chance
of doing harm to the "case" as they just fold aft.

A point of interest here is that the pic you show is a "Swing" with a
small "wing" attached. As Matt mentioned before the wing helps to get
wieght lower and in the case of this particular one I would think the
designers have developed it to assist in minimising the various vorecies
that would be occuring around that area as well.

Frankly though, I dont like the design in the picture as it is not one
that lends itself to the beaching of the boat, which is one of the many
good reasons to own a trailerable. Though it is probably quite stable with
the keel up.


DP
"Jim" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, I'm really embarrassed now , but I think that I should have used
the term "swing keel". See the link shown below. This is what the thing
looks like. The caption on the photo says "Infamous Wing Wing
Keel"---which is were I got the term in the first place. I think that
this "keel" is more like a centerboard or daggerboard (maybe). Anyway,
apparently this keel has at least two positions completely "up" and
completey "down" ---or maybe more---I dunno. Anyway, assuming that
"SWING KEEL" is the correct term, how dos the thing work and how do you
let it up and down (...maybe with a rope...er...I mean a sheet).
Thanks, Jim

http://www.sailboatowners.com/album/...51942590&bts=T

Jim,

I'll take a crack at it.

I have a Gulf 29, with a wing keel. The wing give you right force for
less keel length. As you heel over the wing provide a righting force; by
the position of the wing. The Wing produces lift. When it is heeled,
that lift on the lower (deeper heeled) wing has the advantage of
leverage and give and additional "righting force" to the keel.

It also produces a damping effect against hull pounding.

It is important to have flow over the keel to have it work or it is just
added "Wetted Surface" but with the keel working you get the added
advantage of sail area in a more vertical position for more driving
force

There are attached pictures in Pneuma's Page in the signature below.
Hope I've helped. Jim, there is a difference between a wing and
winglets. A wing has a aileron shape to it to provide "Lift" winglets
are basically to shed the turbulence at the bottom of the keel




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomsPage

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/Pneuma

Two notes about wing keels, based on experience with a Hunter 35 in the
Bahamas about 15 years ago:

Anchor rode will wrap around the keel when wind shifts significantly at
anchor, especially in shallow water. You may have to dive in to unwrap it.

Fording a shallow sand bar may become impossible. Where a fin will dig
a narrow furrow and allow you to continue, the wing will have a very wide
footprint and turn into a plow. Even heeling the boat does no good, since
the lee wing will dig deeper.

--

"Thom Stewart" wrote...
Jim,

I'll take a crack at it.

I have a Gulf 29, with a wing keel. The wing give you right force for
less keel length. As you heel over the wing provide a righting force; by
the position of the wing. The Wing produces lift. When it is heeled,
that lift on the lower (deeper heeled) wing has the advantage of
leverage and give and additional "righting force" to the keel.

It also produces a damping effect against hull pounding.

It is important to have flow over the keel to have it work or it is just
added "Wetted Surface" but with the keel working you get the added
advantage of sail area in a more vertical position for more driving
force

There are attached pictures in Pneuma's Page in the signature below.
Hope I've helped. Jim, there is a difference between a wing and
winglets. A wing has a aileron shape to it to provide "Lift" winglets
are basically to shed the turbulence at the bottom of the keel




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomsPage

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/Pneuma

No idea.. it depends on each boat. Most t/y's have either a winch or block
and tackle system.
Keel weights vary on class. I am sure the catalina people would have lots of
info on the boat if you sent them an email.

Cheers
DP
"Alan S" wrote in message
. ..
My question is how DO you raise and lower it. My Catalina 22 has a winch
with a cable that goes through the hole in the floor with the rubber hose
on it and attaches to the bottom of the keel so you can raise and lower it
from just inside the companion way. (This design IMO is one of the
stupidest things I have ever seen.. If they have to put a 3 inch hole in
the bottom of the boat then why didn't they make the tube that the cable
goes through out of something solid that goes up above the waterline? All
too often an unwary Catalina 22 owner finds their boat on the bottom of
the lake because the hose has somehow managed to come off, but I digress.)
In the picture of the H23 swing keel that was posted appears to have no
cable at the bottom of the keel and no place to put one. Is there some
device that pushes the keel up from the front? That would seem to be a
difficult place for good leverage, How do they work? How heavy is the
keel? A Catalina 22 swing keel can weigh well over 500 pounds.

--
Alan Stewart
Chief Information Officer
K2 Systems Group

www.k2systemsgroup.com
T: 512.238.8700
F: 512.238.8701
C: 512.585.8887

K2 Systems Group manufactures custom coating equipment designed for the
offset, DI and digital print markets. Since this equipment is so unique
and customized for the printing application, there is a limited number of
suppliers for certain components that are incorporated into this
equipment. While K2 makes every attempt to provide customers with
equipment as quickly as possible, delays experienced from our vendors due
to the demand for this equipment can translate into unforeseen delays.
Such delays can occur at any point in the production process. Any
estimate of any date of completion or delivery is subject to change at any
time based on availability of components and on production schedule.
"d parker" wrote in message
...
Now that we have decieded what keel you have, we can go through some
points.

Swings are usually a little slower than drop keel (daggerboard) boats.
Due to the added drag caused by the "slot/s" and in some cases cable.

They are however excellent if you bump the bottom as there is less chance
of doing harm to the "case" as they just fold aft.

A point of interest here is that the pic you show is a "Swing" with a
small "wing" attached. As Matt mentioned before the wing helps to get
wieght lower and in the case of this particular one I would think the
designers have developed it to assist in minimising the various vorecies
that would be occuring around that area as well.

Frankly though, I dont like the design in the picture as it is not one
that lends itself to the beaching of the boat, which is one of the many
good reasons to own a trailerable. Though it is probably quite stable
with the keel up.


DP
"Jim" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, I'm really embarrassed now , but I think that I should have used
the term "swing keel". See the link shown below. This is what the thing
looks like. The caption on the photo says "Infamous Wing Wing
Keel"---which is were I got the term in the first place. I think that
this "keel" is more like a centerboard or daggerboard (maybe). Anyway,
apparently this keel has at least two positions completely "up" and
completey "down" ---or maybe more---I dunno. Anyway, assuming that
"SWING KEEL" is the correct term, how dos the thing work and how do you
let it up and down (...maybe with a rope...er...I mean a sheet).
Thanks, Jim

http://www.sailboatowners.com/album/...51942590&bts=T