On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:57:28 -0700, Mr Wizzard wrote:


No, since algebra was around before the word "computer" ever hit the
airwaves. Abacus, yes, that was good. Look, I admidt, I should have
"qualified" my comments/questions to an actual "time frame" - as in THIS
centry. You know, in the era that most know as "industrialization", ergo,
AFTER the discovery of middle Eastern oil. ...Seems that once oil was
discovered, the Arabs shut down all of their human development, and shut
out the rest of the world.

Not really a fair comparison, is it? For most of this century, the Arab
world was being pillaged by those industrialized countries. For most of
this century, the Arab world were colonies of England and France or
part of the Ottoman Empire. Perhaps, a fairer question would be, what did
those industrial powers bring to the Arab world? I mean, besides death,
destruction, and absurd lines on a map.

"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"P. Fritz" wrote in message
...

"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in
message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam
wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise
of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.



Why not do your own homework?

Because I'm asking for your help. I can't
do it - I can't find the information, and its
apparently not common knowledge, and I think it
is a fair and neutral gesture to invite you to engage
in this quest for informaton - do your part to help
people understand your position - you been called upon.


In "Harryland" harry's word is gospel...not to be questioned, in
"Harryland", harry owns a 36 ft lobsta boat, has a degree from yale,
and
lives with is dr. dr. wife.

Damn.... "who knew" ? Ok, I won't question him.
Does tring to "engage" him in stimulating debate count
as "questioning him" I wonder?

Trying to engage harry in stimulating debate is like ****ing into the wind
and trying not get wet.

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:57:28 -0700, Mr Wizzard wrote:


Not really a fair comparison, is it? For most of this century, the Arab
world was being pillaged by those industrialized countries.

Woe, woe, woe..... See? its *THIS* very (*VERY*) misguided
emotion-ridden mindsets that is at the *heart* of the entire issue.
Ain't nobody "pillaged" **** here buster! - No one came in by
force to "pillage" no oil from the Arabs. That an insult. What,
the South America countries were "pillaged" too? Man....
The Arab lands received a very lucrative profits from that oil.



For most of
this century, the Arab world were colonies of England and France or
part of the Ottoman Empire. Perhaps, a fairer question would be, what did
those industrial powers bring to the Arab world?

Wealth!!!! and LOTS of it too!. Take off them
rose-colored glasses - there is no shortage of flow
of money. And SEE? - this speaks DIRECTLY to
my point - they got SO much oil wealth for SO
little effort for SO long, that the incentives to do
anything else were vitually non existant.


I mean, besides death,
destruction, and absurd lines on a map.

"Absurd" lines on a map? Why are they
so "absurd"? What - should have just
been a free-for-all land grab ? So why is
it the fault of England, France, or Ottoman
empire for thease lines? - these Arab areas
could have done the same, they were not
handicaped in any way.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:57:26 -0700, Mr Wizzard wrote:


"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:57:28 -0700, Mr Wizzard wrote:


Not really a fair comparison, is it? For most of this century, the Arab
world was being pillaged by those industrialized countries.

Woe, woe, woe..... See? its *THIS* very (*VERY*) misguided emotion-ridden
mindsets that is at the *heart* of the entire issue. Ain't nobody
"pillaged" **** here buster! - No one came in by force to "pillage" no oil
from the Arabs. That an insult. What, the South America countries were
"pillaged" too? Man.... The Arab lands received a very lucrative profits
from that oil.


No one came in by force? You have to be kidding, right? Read a little
history of the area. It's been one of conquest since the Crusades. Does
the Sykes-Picot Agreement ring any bells?



For most of
this century, the Arab world were colonies of England and France or part
of the Ottoman Empire. Perhaps, a fairer question would be, what did
those industrial powers bring to the Arab world?

Wealth!!!! and LOTS of it too!. Take off them rose-colored glasses -
there is no shortage of flow of money. And SEE? - this speaks DIRECTLY to
my point - they got SO much oil wealth for SO little effort for SO long,
that the incentives to do anything else were vitually non existant.


I mean, besides death,
destruction, and absurd lines on a map.

"Absurd" lines on a map? Why are they so "absurd"? What - should have
just been a free-for-all land grab ? So why is it the fault of England,
France, or Ottoman empire for thease lines? - these Arab areas could have
done the same, they were not handicaped in any way.

They are absurd, because they are arbitrary and do not represent the facts
on the ground. They were imposed on the area by foreign powers. Ever
wonder why most of the world's "hotspots" were one time colonies? Nope, I
didn't think so.

And, yes, these Arab states were handicapped. Democracy in the area?
There was, until . . . do a search on "Mossadegh CIA". Saddam Hussein . .
.. search on "Iraq Kassim CIA". We are reaping what we have sowed.

Wiz,
As soon as you engage Harry in debate, you became part of the Right Wing
Borg Machine. Right Wingers are useless. If a bus was going to hit you,
Harry would not waste the time to shove you out of the way. You are slime.
You are a scumbag. I am sure there are other nasty names he could call you,
but he will do that in his next post.

You will notice, whatever new insult Harry uses, his little minion, atl_man
will soon repeat.


"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"P. Fritz" wrote in message
...

"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in
message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise
of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.



Why not do your own homework?

Because I'm asking for your help. I can't
do it - I can't find the information, and its
apparently not common knowledge, and I think it
is a fair and neutral gesture to invite you to engage
in this quest for informaton - do your part to help
people understand your position - you been called upon.


In "Harryland" harry's word is gospel...not to be questioned, in
"Harryland", harry owns a 36 ft lobsta boat, has a degree from yale, and
lives with is dr. dr. wife.

Damn.... "who knew" ? Ok, I won't question him.
Does tring to "engage" him in stimulating debate count
as "questioning him" I wonder?

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

...'Nuff said.


What have you, as a "white American," contributed to advancing the areas
you mentioned?

*Much*! .... (you wanna compare Resumes ?)
But your comment suggest a myopic mentality.
Active in the above areas, why is it that I don't
see Arab/muslims active in trade journals etc in
the context of the above?


Ahhh. You think all Muslims have names that fit your stereotypes.

Is the A.M.A., IEEE,
etc. etc. all "biased" media sources too??

There are many Muslim scientific contributors in the world, though many
have left their homelands.


Just
why *IS* it that companies ike Haliburton in an
Arab land is an issue in the FIRST place?

Because that is where they can get the best non-bid contracts.


Why
IS it that (of all places) "France" has to come in
and build nulcear reactors in Iraq/Iran? What of
more basic things like manufacturing, and construction?
Why IS it that the "Germans" have to come in an
build concreate bunkers for Saddam Hussien ?
...I thought "Bin Ladan" was the construction king?
If you haven't noticed, and thus was the "message"
here, the Arabs (for what*ever* reason), have
fallen out humam advancement years ago, and
it has led to this mis-placed Ara fustration that
the world has come to know as "militant islam".

Well, I think you're wrong. These days, there are plenty of Muslims even
in their homelands making interesting scientific progress.



And the Arab leader wanna-b's try to explain
this by a voo-doo religion as the reason/cause.


A voo-doo religion? You're quite the racist, eh.


Poorly worded but full of truths. The culture that shaped Islam is a
culture of the tribe. It's top down and the common man has no power, there
can be no middle class. It discourages individual thought, gives all power
to the religious leaders, what we Christians had during the dark ages with
the inquisition. Arab countries in many ways are still in the 15th century
"dark ages".

The answer to the above questions is simply; there is no middle class.

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:27:11 -0700, "Mr Wizzard"
wrote:

Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

Hate to tell you this, but Moslems (or Muslims - take your pick) along
with the Hindus, invented the concept of zero. There is some dispute
about who invented it first, but it would appear that it may have been
a case of simultaneous invention, but some evidence indicates that the
Hindus came to it much later than the Pan-Arabian ethnic grouping.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 is called the Arab/Hindu (or Hindu/Arabic - all
depends on who you talk to) number system and without it, you wouldn't
have any of the above.

Curiously enough, it first appeared in the 1,000 BC in Babylon or as
we know it Iraq,by Babylonian mathematicians and/or astronomers. The
first "zero" was actually a blank so it would look something like 1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1_ 11 12, etc. It went from a blank to " at some point
(it's been a while - I'm doing this from memory). Eventually, sometime
around the 1st Century BC, a proper zero was developed, but went
through several iterations until it settled down to what we now know.

Curiously enough, Pan-European mathematicians/astronomers never
developed the concept until Arab traders brought it to Europe
somewhere around 8/900 AD. Europeans were using a positional notation
system, but it was confused and subject to royal fiat.

Why is zero so important? Couple of reasons. In the A/H number
system, zero is a place holder - example: 1101. However, it also is a
number - zero. So,as you can probably infer, 111 is very different
than 1101.

And I'm getting carried away. Let's just say that the positional
place-value system couldn't work without zero, that it was pretty much
invented by Moslems (or Muslims) concurrently with some other ethnic
groups and that, in fact, it took Arab traders to bring sense and
commerce to the Pan-European mercantile system leading, of course, to
the list you published above.


It was invented by Arabs who were NOT Muslims, the Muslim religion was not
invented yet! The argument is not that Arabs are inferior but that the
religion suppresses individuals so that a middle class can't develop. No
middle class and the development of an infrastructure never occurs.

Jeff Rigby wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

...'Nuff said.

What have you, as a "white American," contributed to advancing the areas
you mentioned?
*Much*! .... (you wanna compare Resumes ?)
But your comment suggest a myopic mentality.
Active in the above areas, why is it that I don't
see Arab/muslims active in trade journals etc in
the context of the above?

Ahhh. You think all Muslims have names that fit your stereotypes.

Is the A.M.A., IEEE,
etc. etc. all "biased" media sources too??
There are many Muslim scientific contributors in the world, though many
have left their homelands.


Just
why *IS* it that companies ike Haliburton in an
Arab land is an issue in the FIRST place?
Because that is where they can get the best non-bid contracts.


Why
IS it that (of all places) "France" has to come in
and build nulcear reactors in Iraq/Iran? What of
more basic things like manufacturing, and construction?
Why IS it that the "Germans" have to come in an
build concreate bunkers for Saddam Hussien ?
...I thought "Bin Ladan" was the construction king?
If you haven't noticed, and thus was the "message"
here, the Arabs (for what*ever* reason), have
fallen out humam advancement years ago, and
it has led to this mis-placed Ara fustration that
the world has come to know as "militant islam".
Well, I think you're wrong. These days, there are plenty of Muslims even
in their homelands making interesting scientific progress.



And the Arab leader wanna-b's try to explain
this by a voo-doo religion as the reason/cause.

A voo-doo religion? You're quite the racist, eh.


Poorly worded but full of truths. The culture that shaped Islam is a
culture of the tribe. It's top down and the common man has no power, there
can be no middle class. It discourages individual thought, gives all power
to the religious leaders, what we Christians had during the dark ages with
the inquisition. Arab countries in many ways are still in the 15th century
"dark ages".

The answer to the above questions is simply; there is no middle class.




Ahh, then Bush must admire that system, because NO MIDDLE CLASS is where
he is taking us.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Jeff Rigby wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

...'Nuff said.

What have you, as a "white American," contributed to advancing the
areas
you mentioned?
*Much*! .... (you wanna compare Resumes ?)
But your comment suggest a myopic mentality.
Active in the above areas, why is it that I don't
see Arab/muslims active in trade journals etc in
the context of the above?

Ahhh. You think all Muslims have names that fit your stereotypes.

Is the A.M.A., IEEE,
etc. etc. all "biased" media sources too??
There are many Muslim scientific contributors in the world, though many
have left their homelands.


Just
why *IS* it that companies ike Haliburton in an
Arab land is an issue in the FIRST place?
Because that is where they can get the best non-bid contracts.


Why
IS it that (of all places) "France" has to come in
and build nulcear reactors in Iraq/Iran? What of
more basic things like manufacturing, and construction?
Why IS it that the "Germans" have to come in an
build concreate bunkers for Saddam Hussien ?
...I thought "Bin Ladan" was the construction king?
If you haven't noticed, and thus was the "message"
here, the Arabs (for what*ever* reason), have
fallen out humam advancement years ago, and
it has led to this mis-placed Ara fustration that
the world has come to know as "militant islam".
Well, I think you're wrong. These days, there are plenty of Muslims even
in their homelands making interesting scientific progress.



And the Arab leader wanna-b's try to explain
this by a voo-doo religion as the reason/cause.

A voo-doo religion? You're quite the racist, eh.


Poorly worded but full of truths. The culture that shaped Islam is a
culture of the tribe. It's top down and the common man has no power,
there can be no middle class. It discourages individual thought, gives
all power to the religious leaders, what we Christians had during the
dark ages with the inquisition. Arab countries in many ways are still
in the 15th century "dark ages".

The answer to the above questions is simply; there is no middle class.




Ahh, then Bush must admire that system, because NO MIDDLE CLASS is where
he is taking us.

You want to start a new thread on this Harry? The middle class has been
overtaxed since Johnson. Our standard of living (middle class) has been
reduced to the point that it is now necessary for both parents to work,
primarily because of Taxes. The government takes a larger and larger share
of the pie.

You can not lay this all at the current presidents feet. A small percentage
yes since his priorities changed after 9/11.

Both parties are guilty, Republicans can take a lesser share of the blame
only because they have been in power for a shorter time.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:25:56 -0400, Jeff Rigby wrote:


You want to start a new thread on this Harry? The middle class has been
overtaxed since Johnson. Our standard of living (middle class) has been
reduced to the point that it is now necessary for both parents to work,
primarily because of Taxes. The government takes a larger and larger
share of the pie.

Uh, actually, Federal Taxes have remained remarkably constant, at least as
a percent of GDP, for over 50 years. 18% +- 1

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFa....cfm?Docid=200




You can not lay this all at the current presidents feet. A small
percentage yes since his priorities changed after 9/11.

Both parties are guilty, Republicans can take a lesser share of the blame
only because they have been in power for a shorter time.