"Argyle" argyle@nospam wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:58:46 -0700, "Mr Wizzard"
wrote:


"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:27:11 -0700, "Mr Wizzard"
wrote:

Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

Hate to tell you this, but Moslems (or Muslims - take your pick) along
with the Hindus, invented the concept of zero. There is some dispute
about who invented it first, but it would appear that it may have been
a case of simultaneous invention, but some evidence indicates that the
Hindus came to it much later than the Pan-Arabian ethnic grouping.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 is called the Arab/Hindu (or Hindu/Arabic - all
depends on who you talk to) number system and without it, you wouldn't
have any of the above.

Curiously enough, it first appeared in the 1,000 BC in Babylon or as
we know it Iraq,by Babylonian mathematicians and/or astronomers. The
first "zero" was actually a blank so it would look something like 1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1_ 11 12, etc. It went from a blank to " at some point
(it's been a while - I'm doing this from memory). Eventually, sometime
around the 1st Century BC, a proper zero was developed, but went
through several iterations until it settled down to what we now know.

Just one small correction. The Islam religion started with Mohammad in the
7th century. Thus the above assertions do not match the time line.


Duely noted, thanks, I did not know that.


Regards,
Roadburner
Regards,
Argyle

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.




Later,

Tom

Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.



Why not do your own homework?

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:33:53 -0700, "Mr Wizzard"
wrote:


"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.

Zero? Couple of posts up? :)

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:58:46 -0700, "Mr Wizzard"
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

So thats IT? - their contribution to the above was a "zero" ?
(how ironic). But joking aside, this is "good". Is there more?
I mean, what you spelled out here is important (and thats good),
but lets build on that - lets see why there hasn't been more.

How do you define "more"?

Simple: "something"..... Point being, the "drive",
or "natural will" to do good, contribure to the
advancements to society and the like.... You
just don't *see* that (if it exists). Even in "social"
programs, you just don't see it. Take the Pali's...
What are the other Muslim/Arab lands doing to
help the plight of the Pali's? What are they doing
to provide food/medicine/housing/money for the
Pali's? Do you happen to *know* what the
tonnage and $$ amount of rice/food that the United
States donates to poor countries? How about the
major Arab nations - do you know the amount
that they donate?



If I look around at the array of
individuals who provide me and my family with health care, three of
the doctors, including my internist, are Muslim and are very good at
what they do. I work with a Iranian on occasion who has made some
very interesting and valuable contributions to quantum physics -
notably in the area of quantum foam.

Look, yer missing the point my friend!..... All of
these Muslims that you speak of are HERE in the
US of A - the question was what the "Arab/" muslims
are doing? - in THEIR countries? You answer
actually speaks more to my point anyways... This,
and Western cultures "promote" good things like this.



It's like asking what Americans have contributed to the world

Shall I state for you the tonnage and dollar amount
of rice, and food we donate? How about manufacturing?
Software? textiles? crops? Chemicals ? Boeing ?
Microsoft?, Dow Corning, etc. etc.

- space
science? Mostly Jewish physicists and conscripted ex-Nazi German
rocketeers. Medicine, certainly, but so have individuals who were
French, German, Japanese and the first heart transplant was done by a
South African.

More to my point: where are/were the Arabs/Muslims
with all of this? Why no Arabs in space?, Chemists?
You talk about Jewish contributions, and ex-Nazi's,
and the Germans, the French, the Japaneese, and
even South African, and thats all rehashing my point:
every other culture is into doing *some* form of
advancements, and contributions to humanity, and
mankind, but *why* are we struggling tring to fill
in the score cards of the Arabs/Muslims? WTF?
Has the media been keeping this from us?



You can't define a society by what individuals accomplish as
individuals.

No, but you CAN (and we DO) define a "society"
by what they DON'T do as compared to how other
similar societies behaved, and developed over the years.




At some point we need to look at this, and understand why
they fell out of the game so long ago, and see what it will
take to get them back in to the game (if they want to).

The Arabs have always been assimilators (you will be assimilated -
snerk) and as their society adapted to the influences of other
cultures and systems, advances were made everywhere from China to
Britain. They were the main trading group of merchants and
entrepreneurs throughout the Middle East and beyond and spread these
different ideas around igniting the scientific/industrial and other
revolutions.

Ok, great - we got something here (finally).
So lets expand on this. So these "assimilators",
or trade of "assimilation" as you suggest. So
say this trade as value. So what heppend to it?
That can be their contribution. So why are they
not spreading this around? So say the newfangled
thing is "food/donations" (in the form of Oil for Food,
and the dollar amount that we give to Egypt), right?
So why haven't they "assimilated" some of this smack
to their own? The Palistenians? Other poor Arabs?
And if what you say were true, and held much merit,
what is the natural "growth" of this? - how do they
prevent themselves from stagnating with this stuff?



if they don't, we need to find out why, and what to do with
a self-destructive culture that doesn't (that happens to want
to take out the rest of the world). We've seen other despondent
and self-destructive cultures before, but one that wants to also
take out the other side is something we're not used to.
(Hitler didn't want to take "out" the world, he just wanted
to control it - very different).

I understand what you are saying and I appreciate that view, but to my
mind, societies evolve, devolve and evolve once more. Certainly, the
current situation isn't the best, but this is basically a tribal
conflict similar to any number of ethnic/tribal conflicts that
continue to infest world order and peace.

Not true. Tribal conflict with the Iran/Iraq thing
of the 80's, Tribal with the 6-day war of Isreal,
tribal conflict with the first gulf war, yeah, maybe.
But!, how is this "Tribal conflict" when it involves
the West, and the USA? And I think this notion
is a deversion anyway.



I'm not at all sure there is an answer.

The answer is to keep doing what we
are doing. We give ENDLESS tolerance
to dictators, and hostle terror states, but
when they slip up, or the time becomes
right, we go in and enforce what they say
they were going to do, and we change things
for them. They will eventually get the message.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.



Why not do your own homework?

Because I'm asking for your help. I can't
do it - I can't find the information, and its
apparently not common knowledge, and I think it
is a fair and neutral gesture to invite you to engage
in this quest for informaton - do your part to help
people understand your position - you been called upon.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Mr Wizzard wrote:
Coupla Q's:

What have muslims done to :
contrubute to the medical industry?
contribute to the Spaces Sciences ?
contribute to Environmental conservation?
contribute to agrricultural research ?
contribure to Internalional Food aid ?
contribute to Computer Science research ?
comtribute to religious tollerance ?
(i.e., can *I*, a white Amarican take
a vacation and visit Mecca?)

...'Nuff said.


Contributed to medical industry?

How about invented the concept of modern medicine in the first place?
An Arab medical text was *the* standard practice manual throughout
Europe and Asia for about 150 years and helped pull European doctors
out of the voo-doo heebie-jeebie blame it on evil-spirits dark ages.

Thats good. Thanks. See? - yer doing your part
in breaking down these stigma's flating around.





Contributed to Space Science?

How about invented the concept of modern astronomy? Invented advanced
math?

Who, when, and what exactally?


Contributed to Environmental conservation? Does a few thousand years of
working with nature to renew and cultivate the fields in the Nile Delta
count?

What year(s) ?


Contributed to Computer Science? Would the invention of our numbering
system, as well as algebra and (that's an Arab word,al-gebra) other
advanced math concepts count?

No, since algebra was around before the word "computer"
ever hit the airwaves. Abacus, yes, that was good. Look,
I admidt, I should have "qualified" my comments/questions
to an actual "time frame" - as in THIS centry. You know,
in the era that most know as "industrialization", ergo, AFTER
the discovery of middle Eastern oil. ...Seems that once oil
was discovered, the Arabs shut down all of their human
development, and shut out the rest of the world.


Contributed to religious tolerance? Remember, the terrorists represent
mainstream Islam only as much as the KKK represents mainstream
Christianity.

KKK was a rogue SMALL faction of white Amaricans,
and they wern't out to eliminate entire countries, and/or
religions. Nor was it a "State Sponsored" thing and taught
in schools. Militant Islam is a State sponsored thing.

Both cite holy writ as justification for attacking and
murdering folks who don't conform to the small group supposedly
anointed by their screwed up version of God.

Yer bing an appologist here again - might want to revisit that.



Mainstream Muslims regard Jews and Christians as "people of the Book,"
and believe that a devout Jew or a devout Christian can be admitted to
whatever sort of Paradisic Disneyland the Muslims imagine they will
inhabit after death. Muslims are taught, and the Quran demands, that
Jesus, Moses, and Abraham be honored and respected. The Quran calls
Jesus an anointed messenger from God. Sounds like a lot more "religious
tolerance" than you'll hear extended to Islam by many right wing
Americans these days.

In mainstream Islam, the term "infidel" is more exactly applied to
people who are not monotheists. Jews and Christians are only called
"infidels" by the most radical elements of Islam.

Google up "Jesus in the Quran". You might find it surprising.

Why were the Crusaders of the 10th and 11th Centuries called
"infidels"? Because many of them were. The Pope would call for a
crusade, and most of the land owners and rulers needed to at least give
lip service to Christianity to remain in power, but among the ranks of
footmen and other "grunts" there were a lot of folks still openly
following the Old Religion.

Yer being an appologist here again....
To prevent the discussion from getting
too muddled, and off the central point,
say you were right - thats even more to
my point! - We have EVOLVED to see
the light, why have the Arabs NOT?
Further, why do they refuse? Expecialy
when its now 2-oh-oh-FIVE for Gawd
sakes - its not like we're still in the dark ages.





Yes, there are exhortations to violence in the Quran.

Ah, so you see the problem, good, thats a start...


Just as there are
exhortations to violence, murder, and even genocide in the Holy Bible.

Oh yeah, here we go.. Of course.... more excuses.
This is all "appologistism" if I ever seen it.


(Check out the book of Joshua. If you say, "you have to take that it
context", I would ask "why we must take Joshua in context but then
insist on reading the Quran out of context?")

Yeah, yeah, so where are all the Christian homiside bombers?




Any white American can vacation in a Muslim country,

Can I go to Mecca, and Madeena? URL please ?



and many routinely
do. It's best not to act the fool while there,

Why not? Tollerant place "allow" this you know.


of course, and to
respect the tenents of the host culture just as one would when visiting
anywhere else. If one walks down the street drinking from an open beer
bottle, gooses the women walking by, and has a smut magazine rolled up
under one's arm there's going to be some serious trouble-

See, thats ****ed, That is why them places need Westernized.


but would
that be the fault of the Muslim society or the ignorance and arrogance
of the American visitor?

Thats the fault of THAT society - we tollerate THEIR
manorisms, and behaviours HERE, so wtf? We allow
them to prey 5 times a day, we allow them to bring
their prayer rugs to work (even encourage it), we allow
them to build mosques. and the like, so ca-mon dude,
be real here, will ya ?



"nuff said"? :-)

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:

components. M.I. (Militant Islam) on the other
hand, has no such "strategy", as it is all driven
by a physiological/emotional thing, and not logic.




Ahh, I have it now. Christianity as practiced by conservative white
males in the United States is driven by logic, and not the emotional.

No, no, you are drawing some short-circuited conclusion.
First off, (and you NEED to get this straight, otherwise
we don't even have a debate) is that we're NOT talking
about Conservative vs. Liberal - don't do this. That tends
to be a Liberal trait: make it a Conservative vs. Liberal
fight no matter WHAT the conversation is about. You
need to learn to turn "off" your Anti American switch
when engaged in an "INTERnational" type conversations.
(We are talking about Muslims - that is neither a Liberal
thing, nor a white Conservative thing) - had this been
a thread about "domestic" subject, yeah, all fair game.
BUT, we happen to be discussing the Muslim/West
thing, and discussing ways to make it better by trying
to properly identify the problem, and its reasons, and
ways to make that better. (You game for such
NON 'Liberal vs. Conservative' conversation ?)

Now, on point... Our rationale for the Iraq
war(s) were logic based. The UN resolution
687 that enabled the seise-fire of the first Gulf
war was never satisified - that is why Saddam
is in the can. It was technically not about finding
WMD's, it was about *THEM* accounting for
all of the WMD's that *they* themselves documented
as having. They accounted for some, yeah, but not
for the ballance, so we went in and assumed that
they were still there. Doesn't matter if they "are",
"were", or in Tim Buck Too - they *still* had to
account for them, or face the full force of the USA
(for which they did - 'ya see that "Shock-n-awe"?)

We are not fighting wars based on Religion, however
M.I. does. The predominant religions here in the US
are largly emotions based, (coupled with a fair amount
of history, accounts, and possibly facts, and experiences).
yeah, and sometimes religions come about to agument
ones logic mechanisms, but none of this is supportive
of the discussion as hand, is it?

"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.



Why not do your own homework?

Because I'm asking for your help. I can't
do it - I can't find the information, and its
apparently not common knowledge, and I think it
is a fair and neutral gesture to invite you to engage
in this quest for informaton - do your part to help
people understand your position - you been called upon.


In "Harryland" harry's word is gospel...not to be questioned, in
"Harryland", harry owns a 36 ft lobsta boat, has a degree from yale, and
lives with is dr. dr. wife.

"P. Fritz" wrote in message
...

"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Mr Wizzard wrote:
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in
message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:47:18 -0400, Argyle argyle@nospam wrote:



the Arabs, now mostly Muslim, did indeed contribute to the rise of
Western Civilization.

Where? When?. and how? Can you list em?
I think it would be good to learn this information,
and to look into why no one has seen any real
involvement to speak in the last few hundred years.



Why not do your own homework?

Because I'm asking for your help. I can't
do it - I can't find the information, and its
apparently not common knowledge, and I think it
is a fair and neutral gesture to invite you to engage
in this quest for informaton - do your part to help
people understand your position - you been called upon.


In "Harryland" harry's word is gospel...not to be questioned, in
"Harryland", harry owns a 36 ft lobsta boat, has a degree from yale, and
lives with is dr. dr. wife.

Damn.... "who knew" ? Ok, I won't question him.
Does tring to "engage" him in stimulating debate count
as "questioning him" I wonder?