When would you board someone else's boat??
 

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:18:14 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Don" wrote in message
.. .


Then you would have no problem with all of my dogs ****ting on your
couch
repeatedly?

Warning, Don: You've just suggested a hypothetical situation. Dave Hall
likes to call that a "straw man", which he's incapable of dealing with.
He
doesn't realize that virtually every legal debate in the higher courts
involves lawyers and judges trading a series of "straw men" to test the
law.
So, he uses the term to dismiss other peoples' arguments.


Doug, you REALLY need to spend more time studying logic and fallacious
argument techniques. Most of those fallacious arguments are nothing
more than attempts at deflection. As such, a "strawman" argument is
commonly defined as:

"Strawman Argument: (np) 1. Stating a misrepresented version of an
opponent's argument for the purpose of having an easier target to
knock down. A common, but deprecated, mode of argument".

Including, but not limited to, building up an exaggerated set of
extreme circumstances which, while intended to better illustrate the
position of one side of the debate, rarely occur in reality, and it's
therefore generally discarded as little more than an endless circular
debate over "what-if" scenarios.

I don't mind, and have no problem dealing with hypothetical
situations, as long as they bear some semblance to reality. The
likelihood of a neighbor's dogs opening the door to my house and then
"relieving" themselves on my couch, is about the same as you getting
hit by a falling meteor while tending your garden.

Dave



Have you ever read transcripts of the way judges and lawyers debate the
validity of laws in the Supreme Court or appellate courts? Yes, or no?

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...


That is fair.
However, I went one step further, to insure your civility. We installed a
6'
high estate fence around our new home so that your dog will not cause you
to
get killed.
See how nice I am?

Funny that in all the posts that I've suggested the same to Doug, he
fails to consider it. I guess in his mind, he should not have to be
"burdened" with the chore of constructing a fence to keep the unwanted
out of his garden. He feels that it's everyone else's responsibility
to keep them out for him.

A fence would've shaded the garden and made it more difficult for my GOOD
neighbor and I to keep the lawn trimmed neatly. We could've gotten around
the problem of shade by installing chain link, but we didn't like the looks
of those. Thanks for the suggestion, though, Dave.


You seem to have this issue with comparing apples to oranges. In no
way, in any rational person's mind, should something so trivial as
"dog droppings" justify lethal force as a response.

Then you would have no problem with all of my dogs ****ting on your couch
repeatedly?

Why do you guys like to go to the extreme and out of the realm of
reality when trying top make points? Strawman arguments are easy to
pick apart because they do not reflect reality. I'm not suggesting
that you don't have the right to respond to inconsiderate neighbors. I
am saying that you are restricted by law to a measured response.

So, you're familiar with the law here in my town?

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:19:03 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:



And if I found a way to somehow occupy 20% of YOUR weekend time with
bull**** that annoyed you, and repeated this every weekend for the entire
summer, what would YOU do? Suffer with it in silence?

That would make you my wife ;-) . Oh, and I WOULD be ****ed off.
Don't get me wrong, I sympathize with your pain. I just don't agree
that you have the right to take the law into your own hands as a
solution.


Dave

I didn't ask for your opinion. I asked what you would do.

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:40:26 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:




As far as a dog simply crapping on your lawn: The law defines civil
trespass
to INCLUDE causing or negligently permitting foreign substances to enter
private property. So, if neighbor's dog craps on your property, the human
has trespassed, even if he's on the sofa when the dog is on your
property.

I'd love to see the case law which backs up your position. Even if you
are right, and the neighbor assumes all liability (and he does to some
degree) it still does not give you the right to circumvent the law.

Ask any lawyer, Dave. This was explained to me by our town justice when he
was my son's baseball coach. The conversation began over a problem with my
immediate neighbor, who continually allowed the ChemLawn fools to let their
sprays drift onto my garden. That is civil trespass. If a neighbor breaks
your window with a baseball, you talk to him. The 38th time it happens, you
nail him for civil trespass. Exactly the same as a person actually entering
your property when you'd rather he didn't. In my case, the judge offered to
provide an injunction, which would force the police to arrest (right on the
spot) the neighbor and the ChemLawn fools if they continued to spray near
the property line. Luckily, it never came to that point.

That's REALLY a stretch interpretation of the law. But then again, the
way some cases have been tried lately, I shouldn't be surprised.
Trespass laws were never intended to apply to situations like this.
But like many other laws, this one has been convoluted to fit into
otherwise open territory.

But it still does not allow you to kill the neighbor's dog........

If your neighbor is spray painting his garage and allows it to drift onto
your car, he's trespassing. Get it?

No, he's not trespassing. But he will be liable for cleaning up the
car, as this is actionable in small claims court.

You must've spoken to a different judge. It is civil trespass. If you take
him to court and he agrees to pay for all damages, trespass will never come
up in the discussion. But, if he mouths off at the judge, he will, indeed,
have trespass tacked onto his rap sheet.

Maybe. But most civil damages cases rarely need to go into that area.
It is sufficient to prove negligence on the part of the defendant in
order to be awarded damages.

So you like inflicting pain on other people? I believe in giving back
too. If you killed my dog, lets just say that your land would soon
become unable to sustain life for the next several years....... And
then where would you be? Right, just where you are now, in an
apartment.

If you allow your dog to litter private property, YOU obviously enjoy
inflicting pain.

Litter = Pain? On which planet?

In places where people enjoy beauty, not garbage. On private property, the
definition of beauty is none of your business. If I say your garbage doesn't
belong on my property, you have one choice: Do not speak. Clean it up and
stop it from coming my way.

I know some people who start having convulsions when a single
dandelion graces their otherwise perfect green grass. I have a friend
who moved next to one of these people. I'm sure he was clutching his
bottle of nitro pills when my friend's kids would run around their
lawn blowing dandelion seeds around. I would hate to be so wound up
about such things. Life is too short.

What if a neighbor needs to take 3 hours off from work to
wait at home for a carpet cleaning service.

Why would he? I already told you, 5 minutes with a bottle of spray
cleaner and brush. No carpet service is necessary. You really do live
in a world of extremes.....

No. I own a high-functioning nose. And, on my property, you do not determine
maintenance methods.

I'm merely illustrating just how extreme you are. I have a high
functioning nose as well. I can guarantee you that my method was
effective, and not nearly as costly or time consuming as your
illustration.
That way you can take the money, you saved on a cleaning service, and
apply it toward a fence.

You have stolen from them,
Davey. Because of your dog, the neighbor may end up experiencing friction
with his boss. If the boss is an asshole, the employee may not hear the
end
of the aggravation for quite some time, all because you were too busy on
the
sofa to walk your dog.

Oh brother! You should be writing novels. A meteor might hit your yard
tomorrow too. Living your life according to "what-if" scenario
strawmen, is about as unrealistic as one could get.

This "what if" scenario has been going on for 20 years, Dave. Therefore, it
is real.

I highly doubt that your novelized scenarios are anywhere close to
reality. No one has that much stress in their lives, and are still
alive.



Dave, you seem to support the idea that dog owners should feel fine about
letting their vermine run around the neighborhood. How do you justify that?

Live and let live. Don't sweat the small stuff. Anticipate future
problems and take preventative measures to avoid them. Treat people
like you would like them to treat you. When life gives you lemons,
make lemonade. And last, but not least; **** happens.

Dave

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:05:17 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"jim--" wrote in message
...
So you think that money makes one happy? You sound pretty shallow to
me.

And are you friendly to anyone on this board? It does not look like
it.

He's pretty friendly to me, even though we disagree on a few things. But
see....here's the deal: Neither he nor I say outrageous things that fly
in
the face of logic.


What? Most of your arguments thus far on this topic have been
outrageous. Both of you guys are projecting the position that you are
justified in taking the law into your own hands, despite written law
to the contrary.

The law does NOT say I can call a cop and have a destructive animal
liquidated. It says the animal can be liquidated. Period.


You bemoan "inconsiderate" neighbors, who may be guilty of some degree
of negligence, but "retaliate" against them with an equally
inconsiderate response. I'm sorry but you will never convince me that
you are morally or legally authorized to terminate the life of another
living being no matter what "damage" or inconvenience they may have
caused you. There are proper channels to seek out compensation or
retribution for these acts. That these proper channels are not "good
enough" for you is not our problem.

Dave

So, you're a vegetarian?

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:42:42 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:14:23 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

How about this: I'm creating a new art form. It's sort of like etchings.
I
use a key on the side of your car. It won't be just a scratch, mind you.
It'll be an actual picture. This is identical to your allowing your dog
to
crap on my lawn. Is my new art form OK with you?



Another strawman?

You also seem to be unable to grasp the difference between deliberate
and malicious intent, and incidental, consequential actions.

The dog craps because that's a natural act. In some places, it's
illegal to allow a dog to roam loose. In other places it's perfectly
acceptable (and legal). I suggest you move to one of those uptight
areas where people share your outrage at such trivial incidents.

Dave

Coprophilia: marked interest in excrement, especially the use of feces or
filth for sexual excitement.

Interesting? But I fail to see the relevance. Are you fixated with
doggie doo?


This hobby is fine for some, but dog owners should ask before sharing their
fixation with others.

I would challenge that you seem to be the one projecting the fixation
with dog poop. You are the one making the big deal about it. Most
other people just let nature take its course.

Dave

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:19:38 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:sUcic.11851$w96.1132701@attbi_s54...
Don,

Do you believe you have the right to do whatever you please?

Everyone has the right to do as they please, as long as they understand
and
accept the consequences.

Because there are certain laws which address specific consequences to
certain unlawful activities, does not mean that you have a right to
"take your chances" and do as you please. Any moral person should
understand that.


Dave

You only "take your chances" if you're unfamiliar with the law. If I
shoplift $50 worth of razor blades from a grocery store, I understand that
I've instantly given up my right to complain if I'm arrested. That's simple.
The act is immoral. The understanding of the law is irrelevant.

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:07:08 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:Fxgic.13266$_L6.1028222@attbi_s53...
Nope, I do not believe in Anarchy, I believe in a society governed by
laws
to protect my family from people like you.

When the system protects people whose animals destroy property, is that
not
anarchy?

Maybe they just feel that you're one of those perpetually belligerent
A-holes who does nothing but complain about trivial matters, and
respond accordingly. Maybe they're waiting to catch you taking the law
into your own hands so they can come and cart you off to a place where
no one has to hear you complain again.

Trivial? Not to me, or anyone else who puts hundreds of hours worth of work
into a garden. Who are YOU to tell other people what's trivial? What if you
collected classic cars, spent hours restoring and waxing them, and my cat
jumped on them constantly and scratched them? Would that be trivial to you?

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:04:07 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

I suggest you move to one of those uptight
areas where people share your outrage at such trivial incidents.

Dave

I'll go out on a limb here and say that there is not a residential
neighborhood anyplace in this country whose laws permit dogs to roam the
neighborhood. If it exists, its part of a small minority of towns, probably
populated and governed by coprophiliacs.

Think certain places in Texas, Nevada, Montana, the Mojave desert etc.
Places like that where the average population doesn't exceed a few
thousand.

Not everyone lives in a concrete jungle.....

Dave

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:56:11 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
Yeah...I got your behavioral psychology right here, Mr King. :-) Dr
Smith &
Dr Wesson. The best dog training tool money can buy.

But it only works on six dogs at a time. And bullets don't go around
corners ;)

I apologize if my posts have seemed to be more sympathetic to your
annoying neighbors than to your situation. That hasn't been my
intention. While I am definitely a "dog person" I don't like people who
let (or encourage) their dogs to cause problems.

DSK


I know. The average of all your posts in the past have kept you on my Good
List, meaning I'd let you borrow my lawnmower. Not my boat, though. :-)


Hopefully he won't run over any "doggie donuts" when he borrows that
lawn mower...........

Dave