When to shoot a falre into someone elses bilge WAS: When wouldyou board someone else's boat??
 

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Charles" wrote in message
...

Oh, I understand. You're a ticking time bomb. You are the left-wing
liberal counterpart to the angry- at-society skin-head.

-- Charlie

Gotta separate things into categories to help you:

1) Because I agree with Harry on a few things, I'm a liberal?

2) Actually, due to a couple of letters I wrote to a local paper, the
Libertarians are courting me. If you knew anything about the labels you use,
you'd understand this.

Thanks for the help. You're still an angry time bomb.

-- Charlie

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:22:43 GMT, "John Smith"
wrote:

I have no idea if it is legal to shot a dog because he comes into your
garden, but I know I could never kill a dog for that reason. If a dog was
running free and crapping in my garden I would call animal control and have
the dog picked up. If the neighbor was being unreasonable and was not
honoring my request to keep his animal off of my property, I would file a
suit with small claims court.

I can't believe that two people in this small group, would advocate killing
a defense animal due to their neighbors neglect.

Yours and Don's statements say more about who you are, than anything I or
anyone else could say.

That's my point as well. There are many ways to deal with this
situation without becoming a knucklehead.

Being a good neighbor works both ways. I would certainly cross the guy
who kills my pet off of my Christmas list. It would be a damned shame
if he needed help with something and I suddenly became
unavailable.....

Dave

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:21:59 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:nU7ic.10331$IW1.713713@attbi_s52...
I have no idea if it is legal to shot a dog because he comes into your
garden, but I know I could never kill a dog for that reason. If a dog was
running free and crapping in my garden I would call animal control and
have
the dog picked up. If the neighbor was being unreasonable and was not
honoring my request to keep his animal off of my property, I would file a
suit with small claims court.

I can't believe that two people in this small group, would advocate
killing
a defense animal due to their neighbors neglect.

Yours and Don's statements say more about who you are, than anything I or
anyone else could say.

Unlike Henry, you sound like a guy who has the mental capacity to mull over
a hypothetical situation. In fact, this is based on reality. Here goes:

1) The animal control person fails to do his job after 15 phonecalls. The
excuses are absurd.

2) The neighbor promises to improve the situation, but does absolutely
nothing.

3) You go to court and are told that it's not a small claims issue.

4) It's the middle of May, and you've put 200 hours of work into the
vegetable garden so far. It's literally being destroyed by a dog which digs
there.

Now what?



P U T U P A F E N C E !!!!!!!!


Dave

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

Don, I am so glad you have decided to participate in this NG, you will bring
more joy to this forum than anyone can imagine.


"Don" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Don" wrote in message
...

Doug,
You don't have to go defensive over erroneous claims.
Henry has no more say over your property than you do over his.
Just smear his nose in his own **** and move on.



I'm simply helping him understand laws he is 100% unfamiliar with.
The
same
laws I've become 100% familiar with in order to enjoy the simple
pleasure
of
a vegetable garden in the midst of a few neighbors who don't care.

sigh
It's not your job to educate morons, though you may choose to do so
for
hobby.
The *law* has nothing to do with it.
We're talking about *morality* here.
If Blackmoore chooses to act immorally and infringe on your *natural*
rights, you just plug him and turn him into fertilizer.
There are way too many Blackmoores running loose anyway.



Morality, yes. But, in some cases, the law reflects basic moral issues
which
continue to be important to people.

Associating written laws with morality does you a disservice.
There is no connection.

Henry has apparently created nothing
worth preserving, therefore he is having extreme difficulty grasping
this
issue. Fortunately, the courts do NOT share this handicap. Henry should
invite his lawyer to dinner and request an education. Better yet, he
should
head to his town/city hall and spend an afternoon browsing through his
local
laws. It'll be a real eye opener.

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

Doug,

The Penal Code says you are allowed to use any force necessary to stop the
dog's attack, but once the dog is no longer a threat, you may not use any
more force on the animal. It appears that you and Don believe in a high
power than the US Penal Code.

Peace and love,


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Don" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:nU7ic.10331$IW1.713713@attbi_s52...
I have no idea if it is legal to shot a dog because he comes into
your
garden, but I know I could never kill a dog for that reason. If a
dog
was
running free and crapping in my garden I would call animal control
and
have
the dog picked up. If the neighbor was being unreasonable and was
not
honoring my request to keep his animal off of my property, I would
file
a
suit with small claims court.

I can't believe that two people in this small group, would advocate
killing
a defense animal due to their neighbors neglect.

Yours and Don's statements say more about who you are, than anything
I
or
anyone else could say.

Unlike Henry, you sound like a guy who has the mental capacity to mull
over
a hypothetical situation. In fact, this is based on reality. Here
goes:

1) The animal control person fails to do his job after 15 phonecalls.
The
excuses are absurd.

2) The neighbor promises to improve the situation, but does absolutely
nothing.

3) You go to court and are told that it's not a small claims issue.

4) It's the middle of May, and you've put 200 hours of work into the
vegetable garden so far. It's literally being destroyed by a dog which
digs
there.

Now what?

Two years ago when we lived in the more urban part of the city, while
walking my 2 leashed (leashes are required here) spaniels at 10 pm, we
were
viciously attacked by full grown Rottweilers and German Shepherds THREE
times. All three times I kicked the hell out of the attackers, while
pulling
my 2 leashed dogs behind me. During the last attack I killed the German
Shepherd with about 5 good kicks to the ribs and head. After the first
attack I called the Animal Control and was told there is nothing they
can
do
after 5 pm. I then called the police and they told me that there was
nothing
they could do and that I should get a gun and a permit and shoot the
attackers. I then asked if it was illegal to discharge a firearm in the
city
limits and they told me it was. I then asked what the penalty was for
shooting a dog within the city limits and they told me that I would be
charged with a felony and my gun would be confiscated. Welcome to the
new
Russia.



Step 1: Pepper spray
Step 2: Break the dog's neck
Step 3: Drop dog into nearest trash can, being sure to remove its tags, if
any, and drop them into the nearest storm drain.
Step 4: Go home and celebrate with a beer.

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

Don, Have you always believe in Anarchy?


"Don" wrote in message
...
There's something wrong with this boy's circuit board.
If you leave me the hell alone, John, you can expect the same in return.
If you **** with me, you will get ****ed over.
Is that so hard to understand?

And you can shove your *anger managment* right up your ass, anger has
nothing to do with it, common sense does....which you seem to be lacking.


"John Smith" wrote in message
news:X38ic.10395$IW1.715397@attbi_s52...
I was wondering if Doug was as out of control as you were. I completely
agree that you should treat your neighbor as you would like to be
treated.
What you fail to realize is you do not have the right to break the law,
by
damaging or taking your neighbors property, in retaliation to his
breaking
the law. While many people in here disagree, you are the only person in
rec.boats who scares me. I can not believe anyone would say "If you
abuse
that one simple rule (the Golden Rule), you must pay a severe
consequence".

I think you might benefit from some anger management counseling.

"Don" wrote in message
...
What the **** is it with you John?
What the hell difference does it make if Doug agrees with me?
Don't you have a brain of your own?
Don't you have a backbone?
We're not talking rocket surgery here, just very simple basics.
Most kids are taught these things at about age 5, how old are you?
Here, I'll spell it out for you:
*Treat other people as you want to be treated.*
There, is that simple enough?
If you abuse that one simple rule of humanity you may pay a severe
consequence.
Don't let your dog **** in my yard, don't paintball my house, don't
fondle
my daughter, etc.
In turn I won't do those things to you.
Does any of this make sense to you?



"John Smith" wrote in message
news:Fw0ic.5465$cF6.293888@attbi_s04...
Doug,

So you do agree with Don that a person who allows a dog to crap on
your
lawn, is the same thing as your neighbor coming over to your house
and
sexually molesting your daughter?

Do you also agree with Don, that the law requires you to shot the
person
in
the face if their dog craps in your lawn?


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:Cd%hc.16820$GR.2456214@attbi_s01...
Don,
I am having a hard time following this conversation, but from
what
I
can
tell you are saying that a dog taking a crap on your lawn is the
same
as
being a child molester. Did I miss something?

This is simple, John. Based on actual experience:

I'm working in the garden. I have 3 neighbors with little target
dogs,
like
dachshunds. I cut my lawn correctly in the summer, which means
3-4".
The
target dogs' turds are small enough to fall beneath the level of
the
grass.
I step in it. I'm preoccupied with gardening. I am entitled to
focus
only
on
the thing I enjoy, rather than having to watch every step I take.
I
step
in
the turds, and run into the house for a drink of water, and maybe
to
use
the
bathroom. Now, there's turd on my carpet. I have to stop what I'm
doing
and
rent a rug shampooer.

Not only does the machine cost money, but the dog owner has stolen
3-4
hours
of my precious time. If I apply my working rate to my weekend
hours,
that
time is worth between $500 and $10,000.00. The dog owner has
stolen
that
from me.

Get it? Stealing. Why? So the dog owner can keep his fat ass on
the
sofa
watching football, rather than tie the dog up in his own backyard
and
clean
the turds out of his damned lawn. Calling the dog catcher a dozen
times
achieved nothing. "Duh...I have to actually witness the dog
running
loose
before I can do anything about it". This is why one dog on my
street
actually vanished about 15 years ago. Sort of like Jimmy Hoffa.

My property, my garden, my time, my money. No different than if
you
did
a
gorgeous job of painting your house and I came along with a
painball
gun
and
redecorated it for you. Get it? Same exact thing.

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

Don,

Do you believe you have the right to do whatever you please?


"Don" wrote in message
...
You're full of ****.
I am under no obligation file anything with anyone, and I will do exactly
as
I please and you have no say about it.
Our closest neighbor is over a mile away.
This boy has lost his capacity to think.


"John Smith" wrote in message
news:UZ7ic.10371$_L6.898892@attbi_s53...
Don, I am not reacting emotional, it appears that you are, based upon
your
experience with a bad neighbor. I hate to tell you this, but if someone
damages your property, you have neither the moral or the legal
justification
to damage your neighbors property. You have the right to file a report
with
the police and to take them to court.


"Don" wrote in message
...
Geezis, what the hell is going on around here?
I said that if you choose to use MY stuff to YOUR benefit than I have
the
moral equivilent to do the same.
John, PLEASE think these things through before reacting emotionally.

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:Cd%hc.16820$GR.2456214@attbi_s01...
Don,
I am having a hard time following this conversation, but from what I
can
tell you are saying that a dog taking a crap on your lawn is the
same
as
being a child molester. Did I miss something?


"Don" wrote in message
...
"Henry Blackmoore" wrote
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
Actually, it's legally permitted, performed and tested in the
courts
on
a
fairly regular basis. In many places, including what you'd
consider
"normal
suburbs", animals which damage food crops may be killed as long
as
the
method does not endanger neighbors or violate weapons laws. You
really
ought
to think before you hurl, boy.

Uh-huh. And you think that somebody's garden comes under the
"food
crop"
definition and that you have the right to kill your neighbor's
pets
for
a
damaged tomato plant?

Can I come into your house and eat all your food, drink all your
beer,
fondle your 13 yo daughters nubbins, issue you a matched pair of
knuckle
sandwiches and take your DVD player on the way out the door?
If you choose to use MY personal property for YOUR use, YOU open
yourself
up
to that same behavior.
Doesn't anyone know how to *think* anymore?

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:51:01 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

I'm simply helping him understand laws he is 100% unfamiliar with. The
same
laws I've become 100% familiar with in order to enjoy the simple
pleasure
of
a vegetable garden in the midst of a few neighbors who don't care.


Well, I can remember a case that I saw on one of those TV court shows
(I know, not the best forum) where a neighbor had problems with a cat
or dog tearing up their garden, and after finally having enough, set
out some rat poison. The neighbor's pet ate it and died. The pet
owner figured out what happened and sued the "killer" and was awarded
damages for her loss.

Two things: First of all, the guy who killed the pet didn't finish the
job.
He should wrapped it in a trash bag and taken it to a dumpster.

He still ended up forking over some dough for illegally killing his
neighbor's pet. That in itself would seem to validate the notion that
killing a pet over yard damage is neither legal nor justified.

Not necessarily. First of all, this was a TV show. Jerry Springer aside, do
you seriously think a network would air a court session which informed
millions of people that they could get away with executing stray dogs?



The laws you referenced were put into place to cover wild animals
destroying commercial crops, not domestic pets invading a vegetable
garden.

The law here does not specify animals by species. Any uncontrolled animal
is
"wild".

A good lawyer could argue that. A domestic "pet" is not considered
wild. Especially if it is properly licensed, and displays them.

In a town with the laws written the way they are in mine, that lawyer would
be wasting his breath. Besides, what difference does it make whether crops
are destroyed by a coyote or your neighbor's stray dog? Either way, the
damage is done.



And, answer a question which I posed to one of the Patsy Twins: How
large do YOU think a vegetable garden has to be before YOU consider it a
food source which, if threatened, is the same as someone sticking a knife
in
your face and demanding your wallet?

Would you kill someone who ran off with your car? Would the law
consider it justified? Why then do you not extend the same logic to
pets? The "value" of the item is irrelevant. That you resorted to
using deadly force, when the use of such was not warranted IS the
issue.

If someone runs off with my car, they are no longer on my property. Even if
caught them in the driveway fiddling with the ignition, the law only allows
me to shoot them if they are in my dwelling. I can't even SHOW a gun legally
in that situation. It's called "brandishing". I can have my hand ready on
the concealed weapon, and I can tell them I have a weapon, but it can only
be drawn under a narrow set of circumstances.


In an earlier post, you remarked about the intrinsic "value"
of crops versus that of destructive animals as some sort of
justification for killing them. In the case of wild animals, the
"value" of commercial crops would seem to exceed the "value" of
rabbits, deer, or other indigenous wildlife.

Commercial crops? Who are YOU to determine the monetary value of the food
I
grow? One year, I got a 20x40 area to crank out what we estimated to be
over
$800.00 worth of food.

What is the "value" that you place on another living being?

Depends on which being you're referring to. On a scale of 0 to 10, everyone
in my family is worth 10. The neighbor's dog is worth 4, at most, as long as
it's off my property. Its value drops to 0 the minute it breaks the rules on
my property. To give you something to compare to:

Earthworm: 8
Cow: 8
Cat: 9
Coyote: 6
Trout, any species: 218
Neighbors' kids: 9



But pets are another
matter. People place a high "value" on their pets, and as such, they
are not as arbitrary and subject to the same considerations WRT
intrinsic value versus a wild animal.

Correction: ***SOME*** people place a high value on their pets. The ones
who
let dogs roam the neighborhood do NOT.

And you know this how?

Because I'm much smarter than you, and won't fall for such a ridiculous
question.



Those people have clearly
demonstrated that they want their dogs to be hit by cars. Otherwise, they
would not let them roam.

An assumption. One that is not interchangeable with fact. To apply
that same logic, parents who let their kids out to play, must want
harm to come to them, since by doing so, they open them up to
potential accidents and abductions. Surely you see the flaws in your
logic.

No. Kids can eventually be taught that it's dangerous to be careless around
traffic. Dogs, on the other hand, are stupid, and will never learn this.
Since this is obvious, it's safe to assume that anyone who lets their dog
roam has accepted the likelihood that it will be hit by a car. Anything
which is easily prevented but which is NOT prevented, is intentional. This
is the logic behind laws involving negligence, i.e.: criminally negligent
homicide.



Do you have a right to kill a wild rabbit who invades your garden?
What if it was your neighbor's prized poodle? What if it was the
neighbor's kid? Where do you draw the line? I'm curious to hear your
justification.

Rabbit: 99% of the time, no. Bugs and rabbits sometimes eat 10% of your
crops. I plant 10% extra. It works out nicely. Rabbits may eat some
lettuce,
but they don't dig up a 1x1 square every time they take a crap.

Most dogs don't either. Dogs dig for other reasons which have little
to do with their potty habits.

Doesn't matter to me why they do it. If they do it in my garden, they're
headed for trouble. I begin working on food plants in the middle of January
using plant lights. The hard work goes on indoors until April. Once they're
in the ground, the plants are vulnerable until they reach a certain size.
Any animal that destroys 4 months' worth of work can expect to be dealt
with.


One
particularly bold rabbit became coniglio con aglio, rosmarino & pomodori,
served with buckwheat polenta. Delicious.

But the point here is that no one would miss a wild rabbit, so there's
likely no one who would challenge your "right" to kill it. A pet is
another story.

You keep falling into this hole. Question: If a person cares about his dog,
why does that person let it roam a suburban neighborhood full of traffic?



Poodle: If it fits the necessary criteria and diplomatic efforts to stop
the
problem have failed, the dog is in trouble.

It's not your call to make.

The law says it is, as long as I've pursued legal means to put a stop to it.



Incidentally, you've chosen or
pretended to miss the difference between a rabbit and a dog. The rabbit's
doing what it's supposed to do.

And a dog is not?

Private property, Dave. Why do you have so much trouble understanding that
concept? On your property, you have the right to put tacky stuffed sheep and
ugly statues and there's not a thing I can do about it. On my property, I
have the right to deal with dogs.



The dog belongs to a person who is
pretending not to know that you cannot destroy your neighbor's property.

Like I said before, put up a fence if you can't deal with a neighbor's
pet who occasionally wanders.

Only if the neighbor pays for the fence. Otherwise, they're stealing from
me. Nice fences don't come cheap.



Neighbor's kids: Don't be stupid. That's a human being, easily dealt with
via the standard laws of civil trespass.

So why then, can you not exercise the same consideration for pets? I
suspect that you just have some sort of mental thing for dogs.

A mental thing? Yeah...it's called "hate". I don't feel this way about any
other animal. I even like mosquitoes more than dogs. :-) I'm polite to the
well-behaved dogs and their owners. That's as far as I go, and that's
enough.

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:SQcic.11849$w96.1131616@attbi_s54...
Doug,

The Penal Code says you are allowed to use any force necessary to stop the
dog's attack, but once the dog is no longer a threat, you may not use any
more force on the animal. It appears that you and Don believe in a high
power than the US Penal Code.

What dog?

When would you board someone else's boat??
 

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:13:12 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 04:17:56 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

If you ask a neighbor to control its dog and the neighbor refuses, then
yes.
It is equivalent to molesting your daughter. I do NOT agree that the
neighbor should be shot. However, you must realize that by refusing to
cooperate, the neighbor has made a request.

No he hasn't. That's YOUR choice. He's not the one with the problem,
you are.

Nope. By his INACTION in managing his pet correctly, he has said "I'm doing
nothing, and I dare you to do something about it".

That's negative logic. And since you can't prove a negative, it's not
a position that would hold water in a true debate.



He has asked you to bring all
possible legal forces to bear on him as quickly as possible.

Key word: Legal. Killing his pet is not justified, unless that pet
attacks you.

The food destruction legalities have already been explained to you. They
will NOT be explained again.

NOTHING except imminent threat is justification to kill. YOU need to
learn that.



As far as a dog simply crapping on your lawn: The law defines civil trespass
to INCLUDE causing or negligently permitting foreign substances to enter
private property. So, if neighbor's dog craps on your property, the human
has trespassed, even if he's on the sofa when the dog is on your property.

I'd love to see the case law which backs up your position. Even if you
are right, and the neighbor assumes all liability (and he does to some
degree) it still does not give you the right to circumvent the law.


If your neighbor is spray painting his garage and allows it to drift onto
your car, he's trespassing. Get it?

No, he's not trespassing. But he will be liable for cleaning up the
car, as this is actionable in small claims court.

It's your job to
involve the police, animal control people and courts immediately, the
goal
being to remove the animal from the home, extract a huge fine, and cause
as
much heartbreak as possible at the loss of a pet.

So you like inflicting pain on other people? I believe in giving back
too. If you killed my dog, lets just say that your land would soon
become unable to sustain life for the next several years....... And
then where would you be? Right, just where you are now, in an
apartment.

If you allow your dog to litter private property, YOU obviously enjoy
inflicting pain.

Litter = Pain? On which planet?

What if a neighbor needs to take 3 hours off from work to
wait at home for a carpet cleaning service.

Why would he? I already told you, 5 minutes with a bottle of spray
cleaner and brush. No carpet service is necessary. You really do live
in a world of extremes.....

You have stolen from them,
Davey. Because of your dog, the neighbor may end up experiencing friction
with his boss. If the boss is an asshole, the employee may not hear the end
of the aggravation for quite some time, all because you were too busy on the
sofa to walk your dog.

Oh brother! You should be writing novels. A meteor might hit your yard
tomorrow too. Living your life according to "what-if" scenario
strawmen, is about as unrealistic as one could get.


Remember: You are honoring
the neighbor's explicit request. As a side benefit, you will help his
children learn something which he was too stupid or lazy to teach them -
owning a pet involves work.

Yes it does. But it is not your place to teach them.

Losing your dog is better than prison, don't you think?

No one was ever sent to prison for having his dog crap on a neighbor's
lawn. You really do need a reality check Doug.


Dog owners like that really don't want to own pets. They probably get
dogs
because someone else in the house wanted one, but was also too lazy to
care
for it correctly.

That much is true in many cases. But it's still not your place.

Here, after 3 complaints, the dog catcher will remove the dog from the owner
PERMANENTLY and arrange for a $250.00 fine. Do you think the dog catcher
enjoys inflicting pain?

That's his job, and his job is justified under the law. Your vigilante
approach is neither.


Dave