"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article
, BCITORGB
at wrote on 2/21/05 10:58 PM:

KMAN, I suggested to rick that we take this debate to another
level as
he alluded to being interested in discussions beyond Canada
versus USA
comparisons. However, when I asked him for examples of what he
deemed
to be better systems, he reverted to an adversarial stance. I
have to
conclude that he actually knows nothing at all about
healthcare.

What was your first clue? His quick descent into name-calling,
or inability
to provide sources to back any of his ridiculous claims?
====================
LOL What a hoot!!! I have provided proof. You, on the other
hand, rely on chest-thumping, 'mines better than yours' mentality
even when i never claimed a system better. that you refuse to
see the flaws pointed out by your own sources proves your
ideology has far more control than your brain.




I would welcome a healthcare discussion. For example, I'd
really
welcome input from anyone who knows something about Finland.
Over the
last 4-5 years I've marvelled as Finland scores high on a
variety of
international comparisons -- health, education, quality of
life,
economy. I'd love to know how they're doing it.

I doubt, however, that rick can be of much help in that
regard.
===========================
I know that you we not be of any help, since you have decided to
stick your head in the sand and pretend that all is fine.



frtzw906

I'd love to hear from someone who lives or has lived there!

in article t, rick at
wrote on 2/22/05 12:09 AM:


"BCITORGB" wrote in message
ups.com...
rick, so really have nothing to offer.
===============\
LOL Unlike you and kman I have provided information. You have
not. Guess we know now who is tap dancing around, eh?

You've provided a very limited amount of information, none of which has
anything do with substantiating the allegation at hand.

I allege that you are in fact a turd, Rick Etter. Please provide proof from
one of your unions, universities, or media sources that shows I am wrong.

Sorry, rick, my news client seems to be cutting stuff off: what did you
say about systems other than Canada or the USA? Try again, and I'll see
if I can fix the software problem at my end. I look forward to your
input.

Cheers,
frtzw906

in article et, rick at
wrote on 2/22/05 12:12 AM:


"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article
, BCITORGB
at wrote on 2/21/05 10:58 PM:

KMAN, I suggested to rick that we take this debate to another
level as
he alluded to being interested in discussions beyond Canada
versus USA
comparisons. However, when I asked him for examples of what he
deemed
to be better systems, he reverted to an adversarial stance. I
have to
conclude that he actually knows nothing at all about
healthcare.

What was your first clue? His quick descent into name-calling,
or inability
to provide sources to back any of his ridiculous claims?
====================
LOL What a hoot!!! I have provided proof.

Please point me to the post in which you provided proof that Canadians are
dying while in wait lines for care. If you can do so, I will gladly
apologize.

You, on the other
hand, rely on chest-thumping, 'mines better than yours' mentality
even when i never claimed a system better. that you refuse to
see the flaws pointed out by your own sources proves your
ideology has far more control than your brain.

Could be, but that does nothing to change the fact that an allegation was
made and it cannot be substantiated.

Since you asked, there are obviously pros and cons to each system, many of
which I have readily acknowledged you've chosen not to pay attention,
perhaps because you have managed to humiliate yourself so thoroughly.


I would welcome a healthcare discussion. For example, I'd
really
welcome input from anyone who knows something about Finland.
Over the
last 4-5 years I've marvelled as Finland scores high on a
variety of
international comparisons -- health, education, quality of
life,
economy. I'd love to know how they're doing it.

I doubt, however, that rick can be of much help in that
regard.
===========================
I know that you we not be of any help, since you have decided to
stick your head in the sand and pretend that all is fine.

Have you ever asked me what problems there are with Canadian health care?
I've actually mentioned some, but you haven't been paying attention.

I got invovled in this thread because there was a ridiculous and utterly
false allegation made that Canadians were dying in wait lines for health
care. It isn't true. If you'd care to simply acknoweldge that there is no
evidence to support that allegation, perhaps we can move on and actually
talk about the merits and problems of different health care systems.




frtzw906

I'd love to hear from someone who lives or has lived there!

"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article
et, rick at
wrote on 2/21/05 11:37 PM:


snip...

been
alleged.
=-===============
Which you have failed to refute the Canadian sites that say
otherwise.

What "Canadian sites that say otherwise" you haven't provided
any.
================
Yes, I have. And i've told you where to look. That you are
either too stupid to know how, or too afraid to isn't my problem.
It's your head stuck firmly in the sand.





However, you can get excellent care most everywhere and in
the
event of living in a geographically isolated area or some
other
area where there is less equipment and doctors than the
norm,
tests for non-emergencies might result in a long wait.
=======================
That's part of the point, idiot. How do you know if it's an
emergency without the test? You really are that stupid,
aren't
you?

Don't be silly. We aren't talking about someone coming to the
hospital and
not getting any tests done. The type of tests where someone
is
waiting is
where the medical issue is known and the situation is known
to
be non
life-threatening.
=====================
Your ideology is really entrenced, isn't it? There are 'life
threatening' causes that can't be known without some tests.
So,
as long as you're walking and talking, you get to wait until
it
is life threatening, eh?

Unless you are suggesting that every single human being should
be receiving
every single medical test possible every single minute of the
day, your line
of argument here is goofy at best.
========================
No, that's a nice little strawman there. I suggest that getting
the tests that your dictor wants shouldn't take weeks, months or
years. Why would you support such treatment?





As far as making ignorant claims, there are more than
a
few that
you have never backed up.

This is a weasely way of admitting that you can't back
up
your claim.
====================
Nopde. Try again fool. I've even given you the
hints...

No hinting necessary weasel.
=================
Of couirse not. You knew you were spouting idiocy when
you
started. You just weren't expecting to be called on your
stupidity.

You haven't called me on anything.
==================
Yes, your ignorant jingoistic chest-thumping, fool.

More of your brilliance on display.
=====================
No, more of the truth about your constant denial.

Denial of what?

Show me some facts that I have denied. Please quote.
=====================
That wait lists are systematic acroos Canada. Why are you afraid
to look up the data for yourself? Afraid that your jingoism
would take a hit?





How many? What are they coming for? Why?
=======================
Why do all yours allegedly prefer the canadian system?
I've
answered one reason right off the bat. No waits. In a
couple
of cases the treatments needed weren't life threatening,
but
very painful joint problems. They decided that their wait
time, and being dosed with painkillers instead of
treatment
was medically unsound.

They prefer the Canadian system because the standard of
care
is
not dependent upon your income and you don't have to
mortgage
your house to get the treatment that you need.
====================
More strawmen, marching to the tune of your ideology, eh?

No, that's one of the things that gets mentioned most often.
You asked what
they say, and I told you.

Maybe at least as often they mention how in Canada the doctor
and
institution are there to focus on your care, and in the US it
feels like you
are just a commodity being used to generate as much cash as
possible.
=====================
LOL Such altruistic doctors you have there. What a hoot!

The Canadian medical system enables doctors to care more about
healing than
earning than you would find in a profit-driven system. Not to
say that
doctors here are hurting for cash.
=======================
LOL What a hoot! Doctors don't determine the level of your
care in Canada. that's the point, idiot.



Yes, you might indeed have to wait longer than
you would like to treat something that is painful but not
life-threatening.
=====================
Again, that's the point idiot. You don't know what is and
is
not
life-threatening without some of these teats. And, what
isn't
life-threatening at that very moment may be if you have to
wait 2
years for the dianostic tests.

It's too bad you are so busy engaging in name-calling and
propping up your
ego that you aren't willing to learn something.
=====================
I have. I've learned that you are too jingoistic to step back
and
take a real look at your system. You're too engaged in making
comparisions to others.

I have direct experience with both systems. I prefer the
Canadian system for
practical as well as ethical reasons.
==================
And, as I've stated, I know others that prefer to come to the
states. Why are you afraid of adressing the real issues?




You obviously know nothing
about this, and you are making a joke of yourself.
===============
tell that to the CBC, unions and Universities in Canada.
they
ahve the information, if you weren't too afraid to find out
the
truth.

Show us the truth. We are waiting!
========================
I have. And I've told you where to look for more info. That you
are afraid to look, or are too stupid to know how means that you
are not really interested in a real discussion of the issue.
You'ere decided that your jingoistic chest thumping is more
important. People wait, and people die, but by-golly you feel
good, eh?



There is no one waiting
to have their health problems diagnosed.
=====================
BS

Show us the truth! We are waiting.
=====================
I have, fool. You keep ignoring the truth. You don't like the
truth, it scares you.


People who are waiting (I don't
know anyone myself who is waiting for any type of care,
elective or
otherwise)
==================
And you're personally intamate with the health needs of ever
Canadian, eh? My, maybe you should run for god.

I've got a pretty good sampling of contacts at my disposal. I
also used to
manage a national network of educators and health care was a
common topic.
=======================
Wowey zowey batman, then your ignorance is willful. That's even
scarier.



have known medical issues that are continually monitored. Just
because someone has to wait for a certain type of scan
doesn't
mean they
aren't still receiving medical care.
======================
care that might not be the best they could get, of passibly
life
threatening.

The best you could get would be constant testing and monitoring
every minute
of the day. This is definitely not happening, here or anywhere
else.

But getting back to what actually brought me into this
discussion, Canadians
are not dying in line waiting for medical care. And you can't
present any
evidence that they are, because it doesn't exist.
=================
I've told you where to look. That you are willfully ignorant,
and wish to remain so doesn't make the info go away. Hidinh your
head in the sand just proves how determeined you are to remain
stupid.


snip

A fool makes an accusation without evidence to support it. If
you are
alleging that Canadians are dying waiting to receive health
care, prove it.
Otherwise, you know exactly what you are.
====================
LOL Where's you proof fool? refute waht your own media,
unions
and Universties say.

There's nothing to refute. They don't say as you allege.

You haven't even tried. All you've done is
thump your chest about how great your system is. We're # 30,
we're #30!! Wow, what an acheivement!

There's nothing to refute. You haven't presented any evidence
to
substantiate your position, because there isn't any.
======================
Yes, I have. And have provided you with info on where else to
look. get at it fool, if your really wish to engage in more than
jingoistic chest-thumping.




And there hasn't been one piece
of evidence to support the allegation, nothing but a story
about Newfoundland, and nothing having to do with people
dying
while waiting.
====================
LOL Because YOU are afraid to research the data. Your
idiocy
would be exposed to yourself that way..

Yawn. More weasel words. Let's face facts, if you could
possible post
information to make you look a bit less stupid, you would do
so. You can't
because it doesn't exist.
=============================
LOL Then you should post it fool. Come on. make me look like
the idiot

You've managed that all on your own. I'm actually starting to
feel sorry for
you. I am realizing that your rude and aggressive behaviour is
all just part
of your weakness.
========================
Nope, not at all. What i have managed to do is make you look
like the provincial, chest-thumping, I'm better than anyone idiot
that refuses to engage in real discussions. You're afraid to
look at any data that refutes your willful ignorance.


you have already shown yourself to be.
Again, try your own media, unions, and universities. But we
already know you are afraid to bring facts into your argument,
eh?

I didn't make the allegation that Canadians are dying in line
waiting for
medical care. It's obviously up to the person making the
allegation to
present evidence. I'd be happy to refute any such evidence, but
none has
been provided. That is because none exists.
========================
And it has been presented. Your saying nah nah nah, it isn't
true doesn't make if false. Refute you own media, unions,
universities and government fool. Come on, tell them they are
wrong and prove it.


snip

Nobody in Canada is dying while waiting, as was alleged.
==================
Not according to sources in your own country.

You haven't shown us any.
=====================
LOL I've already told you a number of times, try your own
media,
unions and universities.

I have. No such evidence exists.
======================
No, you haven't looked, because I see the data when I look, and
it claims they are.


That you are too afraid to look, or too
stupid to know how doesn't make the information any less
available.

It does not exist.
==================
Tell that to your own people then fool.



You seem to be making it up as you go. Come on, provide
more than just your say-so that there are no waiting
lines
for Canadian health-care.

If you mean that somewhere in a doctor's office or
emergency
room someone is waiting, I have to agree.

But no one is dying in a waiting line.
======================
An assertion that is not backed up by canadian sources.
And
for many, the decision is not to wait until then, but to
go
elsewhere for treatment.

No one is dying in a waiting line as alleged.

==================
Not according to sources in your own country.

You haven't shown us any.
=======================
Yes, I have. You choose not to accept it because iof your
jingoistic chest thumping.

You have not shown any evidence that anyone in Canada has died
waiting in
line for care.
=====================
I have provided you with the information on where to look. YOU
do not accept what I post, even when it is the truth, so I'm
leaving it to you to find it yourself. I have told you where and
how to begin. YOU are too afradi to try. No surprise there, but
you are being shown for the disengenuous fool that you are.


snip

It was "pertenent" in that it shows that in a geographically
isolated area
of Canada with a small population the standard of care is a
behind what is
available elsewhere.
==========================
LOL But somehow your own 'one' example proves that the rest
of
the country is fine. You really are stupid enough to believe
that, aren't you?

The allegation is that people in Canada are dying in waiting
lines. You've
provided no evidence whatsoever to that effect.
=====================
Because if I present it fool, you'll claim it's not true. I
showing how desperate you are by having told you how to look, but
but proving that you are too afraid to. Thanks for showing the
world your idiocy.



That's unfortunate, and it is something all Canadians
want improved. But your example does nothing to demonstrate
that people in
Canada are dying waiting for treatment as has been alleged.
=====================
Then it should be easy to disprove those claims by your own
media, unions and universities, shouldn't it?

Unfortunately I can't find any university, union, or media
source that says
"Rick Etter's ridiculous allegations are false." I also haven't
found any
evidence from those sources that proves George W Bush is not in
fact a
cockroach.
==========================
LOL Nice stawman, fool. Thanks for the proof again of your
idiocy.




Seems you have a bizarre notion of 'real
life' examples. I gave you other real life examples as
well.

I fully acknowledged your example.
==============
That was plural fool.

I've acknowledged all of the information you provided, none of
which does
anything to prove the allegation that people are dying in wait
lines.
======================
You're afraid to look. Besides, that response was to another of
your ignorant claims that canadaians all prefer to be treated in
canada and they all have wonderful experiences. that was the
implication of your 'one' example of fine medical access. I
replied with others that proved you wrong there too. Your lies
are adding up.




The fact that there is no evidence to
sustantiate the allegation of people dying in waiting lines
should of course been enough for you.
==================
Not according to sources in your own country.

You haven't provided any. Thus far they are only in your
mind.
================
Again, yes I have.

Please quote from one of your sources that says people are
dying in wait
lines and I will be happy to apologize.
==============================
Try for your self. We know that you are afraid to, and I like
how you're squiming like a worm on a hook.




snip

==========================
ROTFLMAO And you as independent as the driven snow. Stop,
you're killing me!! Oh well, at least i can get tested right
away, eh?

I think some testing is definitely in order, and I think you
are right on
this one...pay whatever you need to pay to move to the front of
the line.
Your need for help is urgent.
==================
Thanks for yet again making light of the plight of many many
canadians fool. Your continued jingoism noted.

"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article t,
rick at
wrote on 2/22/05 12:09 AM:


"BCITORGB" wrote in message
ups.com...
rick, so really have nothing to offer.
===============\
LOL Unlike you and kman I have provided information. You
have
not. Guess we know now who is tap dancing around, eh?

You've provided a very limited amount of information, none of
which has
anything do with substantiating the allegation at hand.
========================
I have provided enough to show that people are on wait lists that
need treatment. That you are afraid of that data, and have to
shoot the messenger of that data say more about your ideology
than antything else you say.



I allege that you are in fact a turd, Rick Etter. Please
provide proof from
one of your unions, universities, or media sources that shows I
am wrong.
========================
Try reading them for yourself. Again, I'm letting you pick he
sources, since if I provide tham they are right-wing, America
loving loonies, eh fool? Thanks for yet again proving you lack
of real interest in the discussion.

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
ups.com...
Sorry, rick, my news client seems to be cutting stuff off: what
did you
say about systems other than Canada or the USA? Try again, and
I'll see
if I can fix the software problem at my end. I look forward to
your
input.
====================
Nice strwaman. Where was I discussing other systems? The only
passing reference I made was that beating your chest about being
#30 wasn't really any acheivment. And, I wasn't discussing the US
system. That was YOUR input trying to imply that I must support
it as the best in the world just because i question the
effeciency of the Canadian system. Too bad for you that that
wasn't what I was replying to, isn't it? Now, if you wish to
discuss wait times in Canada, that's where we are. Are you with
kman on this, claiming that it doesn't happen, and that no-one is
denied proper, timely treatment in Canada? If so, i've got a
nice bridge to sell you.... or maybe some nice swampland...




Cheers,
frtzw906

"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article
et, rick at
wrote on 2/22/05 12:12 AM:


"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article
,
BCITORGB
at wrote on 2/21/05 10:58 PM:

KMAN, I suggested to rick that we take this debate to
another
level as
he alluded to being interested in discussions beyond Canada
versus USA
comparisons. However, when I asked him for examples of what
he
deemed
to be better systems, he reverted to an adversarial stance.
I
have to
conclude that he actually knows nothing at all about
healthcare.

What was your first clue? His quick descent into
name-calling,
or inability
to provide sources to back any of his ridiculous claims?
====================
LOL What a hoot!!! I have provided proof.

Please point me to the post in which you provided proof that
Canadians are
dying while in wait lines for care. If you can do so, I will
gladly
apologize.
=====================
Pucker up, fool...



You, on the other
hand, rely on chest-thumping, 'mines better than yours'
mentality
even when i never claimed a system better. that you refuse to
see the flaws pointed out by your own sources proves your
ideology has far more control than your brain.

Could be, but that does nothing to change the fact that an
allegation was
made and it cannot be substantiated.
=================
Yet there are, by many Canadian sources. You are afraid to look
into them...


Since you asked, there are obviously pros and cons to each
system, many of
which I have readily acknowledged you've chosen not to pay
attention,
perhaps because you have managed to humiliate yourself so
thoroughly.
====================
LOL What a hoot! You're the one running as fast as you can from
any data. You really are this stupid, aren't you?



I would welcome a healthcare discussion. For example, I'd
really
welcome input from anyone who knows something about Finland.
Over the
last 4-5 years I've marvelled as Finland scores high on a
variety of
international comparisons -- health, education, quality of
life,
economy. I'd love to know how they're doing it.

I doubt, however, that rick can be of much help in that
regard.
===========================
I know that you we not be of any help, since you have decided
to
stick your head in the sand and pretend that all is fine.

Have you ever asked me what problems there are with Canadian
health care?
I've actually mentioned some, but you haven't been paying
attention.
====================
No, you're too busy chest-thumping...


I got invovled in this thread because there was a ridiculous
and utterly
false allegation made that Canadians were dying in wait lines
for health
care. It isn't true. If you'd care to simply acknoweldge that
there is no
evidence to support that allegation, perhaps we can move on and
actually
talk about the merits and problems of different health care
systems.
===========================
Then prove that the canadians sites data I've seen is false. But
then, you'd have to actually look into the data first, and we
know you are afraid to do that, aren't you?





frtzw906

I'd love to hear from someone who lives or has lived there!

"rick" wrote in message
ink.net...

"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article t, rick at
wrote on 2/22/05 12:09 AM:


"BCITORGB" wrote in message
ups.com...
rick, so really have nothing to offer.
===============\
LOL Unlike you and kman I have provided information. You have
not. Guess we know now who is tap dancing around, eh?

You've provided a very limited amount of information, none of which has
anything do with substantiating the allegation at hand.
========================
I have provided enough to show that people are on wait lists that need
treatment. That you are afraid of that data, and have to shoot the
messenger of that data say more about your ideology than antything else
you say.

Please provide a link to the message in which you posted a Canadian
reference (or any reference) that proves Canadians have died in wait lines
for health care, and I will make a formal and public apology.



I allege that you are in fact a turd, Rick Etter. Please provide proof
from
one of your unions, universities, or media sources that shows I am wrong.
========================
Try reading them for yourself.

Amazingly enough, not one of them actually documents your status as a turd.

"rick" wrote in message
ink.net...

"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article et, rick at
wrote on 2/22/05 12:12 AM:


"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article
, BCITORGB
at wrote on 2/21/05 10:58 PM:

KMAN, I suggested to rick that we take this debate to another
level as
he alluded to being interested in discussions beyond Canada
versus USA
comparisons. However, when I asked him for examples of what he
deemed
to be better systems, he reverted to an adversarial stance. I
have to
conclude that he actually knows nothing at all about
healthcare.

What was your first clue? His quick descent into name-calling,
or inability
to provide sources to back any of his ridiculous claims?
====================
LOL What a hoot!!! I have provided proof.

Please point me to the post in which you provided proof that Canadians
are
dying while in wait lines for care. If you can do so, I will gladly
apologize.
=====================
Pucker up, fool...

Please provide a link to the message in which you posted a Canadian
reference (or any reference) that proves Canadians have died in wait lines
for health care, and I will make a formal and public apology.


You, on the other
hand, rely on chest-thumping, 'mines better than yours' mentality
even when i never claimed a system better. that you refuse to
see the flaws pointed out by your own sources proves your
ideology has far more control than your brain.

Could be, but that does nothing to change the fact that an allegation was
made and it cannot be substantiated.
=================
Yet there are, by many Canadian sources. You are afraid to look into
them...

Please provide a link to the message in which you posted a Canadian
reference (or any reference) that proves Canadians have died in wait lines
for health care, and I will make a formal and public apology.


Since you asked, there are obviously pros and cons to each system, many
of
which I have readily acknowledged you've chosen not to pay attention,
perhaps because you have managed to humiliate yourself so thoroughly.
====================
LOL What a hoot! You're the one running as fast as you can from any
data. You really are this stupid, aren't you?

Please provide a link to the message in which you posted a Canadian
reference (or any reference) that proves Canadians have died in wait lines
for health care, and I will make a formal and public apology.



I would welcome a healthcare discussion. For example, I'd
really
welcome input from anyone who knows something about Finland.
Over the
last 4-5 years I've marvelled as Finland scores high on a
variety of
international comparisons -- health, education, quality of
life,
economy. I'd love to know how they're doing it.

I doubt, however, that rick can be of much help in that
regard.
===========================
I know that you we not be of any help, since you have decided to
stick your head in the sand and pretend that all is fine.

Have you ever asked me what problems there are with Canadian health care?
I've actually mentioned some, but you haven't been paying attention.
====================
No, you're too busy chest-thumping...

And again, you continue making insults and showing no interest.


I got invovled in this thread because there was a ridiculous and utterly
false allegation made that Canadians were dying in wait lines for health
care. It isn't true. If you'd care to simply acknoweldge that there is no
evidence to support that allegation, perhaps we can move on and actually
talk about the merits and problems of different health care systems.
===========================
Then prove that the canadians sites data I've seen is false. But then,
you'd have to actually look into the data first, and we know you are
afraid to do that, aren't you?

Please provide a link to the message in which you posted a Canadian
reference (or any reference) that proves Canadians have died in wait lines
for health care, and I will make a formal and public apology.





frtzw906

I'd love to hear from someone who lives or has lived there!