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"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...

KMAN wrote:
"rick" wrote in message
ink.net...

"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article
et,
rick at
wrote on 3/1/05 11:27 PM:

"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article
et,
rick at
wrote on 3/1/05 9:34 PM:

kman also claimed that no one in Canada waits for
treatment,
yet
another lie

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...anbacklog.html

I never made that claim,
===========================
Yes, you did.
"...No one is waiting for treatment..." 2/20/2005
2:14pm
Complete sentence. No "and", "or", "but".

Just because it is a sentence doesn't mean it is a complete
statement.

Example:

What do you mean rick is a bit of an idiot, that's not
true. He's
got to
be
the biggest idiot on the planet!

To paste only the first sentence and then claim that I
don't think
rick
is
an idiot would be just as dishonest as what you have been
doing
with my
sentence about waiting.

Here is more of the context:

======

As many as 100 children in Newfoundland face 30-month
waits for
the
high-tech scans, said Geoffrey Higgins, clinical chief of
diagnostic imaging
at the Health Care Corporation of St. John's. While the
wait is
"less than
ideal," he said patients' conditions are being
investigated and
followed by
other medical means, and that anyone needing an emergency
scan
gets one.
======================
LOL Sure, 2 years into a wait he might really NEED
emegency
treatment, eh? At that time he goes right to the top of
the
list. Maybe too late, eh? At the least, he has suffered
more
than was medically necessary, and at worst is now beyond
treatment, or too weak to survive the treatment.

You're telling me there aren't poor people in the US in
isolated or slum
areas where they have a hard time getting a scan at their
convenience? Get
real.
====================
Another strawman, I see. We aren't talking about their
'convenience', we're talking about the convenience of the
medical
systam. When that 'poor' person arrives at a medical
facility in
need, then yes, I'm saying that they will not wait 2 1/2
years
for treatment.

No one is waiting for treatment.
======================
Yes, they are. Weeks months and years. Even you have
agreed to
that,
now.

Nono. Stop being dishonest.

I never said no one in Canada is waiting for treatment.

See the context above again. It is not that complicated.

I responded to your claim that the people in your example were
waiting 2 1/2
years for treatment. They are not.

It's about a specific type of scan in a
specific geographic area and the waiting is for
non-emergencies.
====================
Nope. You claimed that no Canadians were waiting for
treatment.

I made no such claim, you are a liar and a scumbag. There is
no such
thing
as a health care system where no one waits for treatment.

You owe me an apology.

rick, I believe that you owe KMAN an apology for being so quick
to beat
him up when he misspoke. You were correct to recognize his
untenable
position intitially, and confront him with it, but he has since
modified and clarified that statement, and you owe him the
civility of
his response when he recognized that he had misspoke.
======================
That's the problem, he continue to claim he never made the
statement that he did. He continues to try to get around it by
tap dancing. He has never said that he made a mistake, or that
he mispoke, he keeps claiming he never said it.

If he did not
initially recognize his misspeak, he definitly has at this
time. I
would recommend that you allow his retraction, so that you can
get on
with a meaningful discussion, unless you appear intransient and
bring
disrepute on your obviously defendable position. TnT

"KMAN" wrote in message
. ..

snip...

rick, I believe that you owe KMAN an apology for being so
quick to beat
him up when he misspoke. You were correct to recognize his
untenable
position intitially, and confront him with it, but he has
since
modified and clarified that statement, and you owe him the
civility of
his response when he recognized that he had misspoke. If he
did not
initially recognize his misspeak, he definitly has at this
time. I
would recommend that you allow his retraction, so that you can
get on
with a meaningful discussion, unless you appear intransient
and bring
disrepute on your obviously defendable position. TnT

Tinkerntom, you are mixing up two different situations.

There was the situation where I was challenging rick to prove
that Canadians are dying in waiting lines for health care.
===============
Which has now been proven over and over.

What is happening above is an entirely different scenario. Rick
accused me of stating that there is no one in Canada waiting
for treatment. That is an absurd statement and I never made it.
=======================
LOL Even after Tnt tried to give you a way out, you still insist
on lying. You just can'r help yourself, can you, liarman?

Being the sneaky scum that he is, he
posted one sentence out of a long conversation without the
relevant context to try and make him look like less of a liar.
=================
LOL The context made the statement even more declarative you
ignorant liar.

But as you can see from the
context, all I was telling him was that in the case of
Newfoundland that he was talking about, the people concerned
were in fact under the constant care of a doctor and therefore
were not waiting for treatment.

rick, you're sticking to this like baby **** to a blanket. grow up, put
some pampers on, and spare the rest of us...

don't you get it?the topic is dead! over! finito! basta! fertig!

frtzw906

"rick" wrote in message
nk.net...

"KMAN" wrote in message
. ..

"rick" wrote in message
ink.net...

"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article et, rick
at
wrote on 3/1/05 11:27 PM:

"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article
et, rick at
wrote on 3/1/05 9:34 PM:

kman also claimed that no one in Canada waits for treatment,
yet
another lie
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...anbacklog.html

I never made that claim,
===========================
Yes, you did.
"...No one is waiting for treatment..." 2/20/2005 2:14pm
Complete sentence. No "and", "or", "but".

Just because it is a sentence doesn't mean it is a complete statement.

Example:

What do you mean rick is a bit of an idiot, that's not true. He's got
to be
the biggest idiot on the planet!

To paste only the first sentence and then claim that I don't think rick
is
an idiot would be just as dishonest as what you have been doing with my
sentence about waiting.

Here is more of the context:

======

As many as 100 children in Newfoundland face 30-month waits for
the
high-tech scans, said Geoffrey Higgins, clinical chief of
diagnostic imaging
at the Health Care Corporation of St. John's. While the wait is
"less than
ideal," he said patients' conditions are being investigated and
followed by
other medical means, and that anyone needing an emergency scan
gets one.
======================
LOL Sure, 2 years into a wait he might really NEED emegency
treatment, eh? At that time he goes right to the top of the
list. Maybe too late, eh? At the least, he has suffered more
than was medically necessary, and at worst is now beyond
treatment, or too weak to survive the treatment.

You're telling me there aren't poor people in the US in
isolated or slum
areas where they have a hard time getting a scan at their
convenience? Get
real.
====================
Another strawman, I see. We aren't talking about their
'convenience', we're talking about the convenience of the medical
systam. When that 'poor' person arrives at a medical facility in
need, then yes, I'm saying that they will not wait 2 1/2 years
for treatment.

No one is waiting for treatment.
======================
Yes, they are. Weeks months and years. Even you have agreed to that,
now.

Nono. Stop being dishonest.

I never said no one in Canada is waiting for treatment.
================
Yes, you did.

No, I didn't. I respond to your goofy claim that the people in your example
were waiting 2 1/2 years for treatment when in fact they were all in current
receipt of care.

Stop being such a scumbag. You owe me an apology but your are too weak and
too much of coward to do it.

"rick" wrote in message
ink.net...

"KMAN" wrote in message
. ..

snip...

rick, I believe that you owe KMAN an apology for being so quick to beat
him up when he misspoke. You were correct to recognize his untenable
position intitially, and confront him with it, but he has since
modified and clarified that statement, and you owe him the civility of
his response when he recognized that he had misspoke. If he did not
initially recognize his misspeak, he definitly has at this time. I
would recommend that you allow his retraction, so that you can get on
with a meaningful discussion, unless you appear intransient and bring
disrepute on your obviously defendable position. TnT

Tinkerntom, you are mixing up two different situations.

There was the situation where I was challenging rick to prove that
Canadians are dying in waiting lines for health care.
===============
Which has now been proven over and over.

What is happening above is an entirely different scenario. Rick accused
me of stating that there is no one in Canada waiting for treatment. That
is an absurd statement and I never made it.
=======================
LOL Even after Tnt tried to give you a way out, you still insist on
lying. You just can'r help yourself, can you, liarman?

Being the sneaky scum that he is, he
posted one sentence out of a long conversation without the relevant
context to try and make him look like less of a liar.
=================
LOL The context made the statement even more declarative you ignorant
liar.

It was declarative that you were misrepresenting the information in the
story about the people in Newfoundland. All of those people were under care,
as it states in the article.

Stop being a scumbag. You owe me an apology. But you are too big of a coward
to admit it.

But as you can see from the
context, all I was telling him was that in the case of Newfoundland that
he was talking about, the people concerned were in fact under the
constant care of a doctor and therefore were not waiting for treatment.

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
rick, nobody gives a ****!
===================
Yes, it's very apparent that you and liarman don't care that
people are dying while waiting for treatment in Canada.

frtzw906

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
rick, you're sticking to this like baby **** to a blanket. grow
up, put
some pampers on, and spare the rest of us...

don't you get it?the topic is dead! over! finito! basta!
fertig!
=====================
But just because you say it's over doesn't mean that Canadians
aren't still dying while waiting for treatment, eh?

frtzw906

"KMAN" wrote in message
. ..

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Tink says:
==============
FOCUS! He only said that some have died while waiting for a
Medical
Test or Procedure.
==============

Tink, thanks for what you've done here; you've provided a
conciliatory
tone. Look, I don't know KMAN, but from his posts, I can well
imagine
where he was coming from (insofar as I felt the same way but
was
disinclined to carry on a discussion with one as one-tracked
as rick).
Over here, in the Great White North, inundated as we are with
American
media, we constantly hear the ignorant bleatings of the
American
right-wing. And this nonsense about people "dying while on a
waiting
list" is one of those bits of nonsense.

So let's step back a bit. Do people die on waiting lists? Of
course
they do. We're talking about illnesses and medicine. How could
people
NOT die on waiting lists. And that applies to waiting lists in
Canada,
Sweden, Germany, and the United States. People die on waiting
lists
PERIOD. OK, we've gotten that out of the way.

I'll not speak for KMAN, but from where I'm looking at the
discussion,
I suspect KMAN is smart enough to realise this as well. I
react (I
suppose KMAN does) to the nonsense we hear from south of the
49th -- it
is exactly as the one article you recommended says;
exceedingly long
waiting lists are very rare and talk about them is just media
hype.

For us (and for citizens of all nations) the public debate
about
medicine is part economic, part ethical, and part
philosophical. As you
pointed out, after doing extensive reading about our system,
you've
learned that our system is quite good at early intervention
(nobody has
to ask whether or not they can afford it), it is good at
providing for
the poor and the indigent. And, as you so eloquently put it,
good at
raising the general level of health care in the populace. On
principle,
we believe that need, not money, should determine where you
are in the
waiting list.

As with most systems, there is an economic component. Emphasis
on one
element of healthcare generally means that another aspect gets
fewer
resources. So, given the emphasis and benefits listed above,
there are
likely to be waiting lists in some other parts of the system.
The
question that we, as a society, have to answer is, "Are we
willing to
tolerate a 3 month waiting time for joint replacement surgery
if it
means that we'll have generally higher health standards or
greater
accessability for the entire populace?" We've answered "Yes".
Americans
continue to answer "No".

To sum up: I think KMAN's responses are less "jingoistic chest
thumping" as rick likes to call it, and more frustrated
responses to
right-wing nonsense fed by a media machine.

Tink, I hope you brought this ping-ponging to and end. Thanks.

frtzw906

What would make things easier in the future is if I could send
you my posts and you could edit them for me before posting!

You've captured it perfectly. I got so frustrated with rick's
spew that I tried to pin him down and make him focus more on
his wild claims about Canadian health care, and all that
happened instead is he took the dishonest tactic of picking on
the wording of my attempts to make him focus.
=====================
No, there was no misleading by me of your lies, er wording,
liarman. You made direct declarative statements that you cannot
back up. I focused entirely on your lies that no 1) no one is
waiting for treatment in Canada, and 2) that no one dies waiting
for treatment in Canada. You lied on both counts.

But, hell's bells, it seems at least one American has cut
through some of the myths of Canadian health care as a result
of this, which is something eh?!?
================
But at least 2 Canadians here continue to ignore the facts of
Canadaian health care.