Rick wrote:
sparks wrote:

Greetings,
Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking.
This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water
(Indiana..pretty chilly right now). What can you recommend for
clothing? I really cant afford to go out and buy an expensive dry suit
(the ones I found on the internet were $400 and up ). We really want
to go this winter but...if not being able to afford a drysuit is going
to be a safety concern then I will wait until spring : ) Anyone have
any cheaper alternatives?

Thanks!
Sparks

Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a
dry suit is a must. A wetsuit to meet your needs would be too thick to
paddle in and insufficent once you were immersed. You may be able to
find one used at a modestly reduced rate.

Nonsense Rick. A wetsuit needed to paddle in conditions where the water
is still flowing wouldn't be too thick. Combine it with a good
(semi-)drytop and a couple of layers of polypro underneath that drytop,
and you can be nice and warm in those conditions.

Very few people over here buy drytops due to their their very high
prices, and that's with the main paddling season being in the winter:

http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler15.html

http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler16.html

http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler19.html

I would agree if you'd say that a drytop can be a cosier alternative,
but it comes at a price and a risk.

I personally don't like paddling drysuits. First of all, I think that
they just cost too much, especially for a beginning paddler. It's still
necessary to wear a thick enough layer of clothes underneath to keep out
the cold and to have some padding in the case of a close encounter with
hard objects. It's also not all that easy to get into a new or newly
gasketed drysuit, having witnessed all too many wrestling drysuit owners
trying very hard to get into their prized garments... And then I haven't
started about the strength and agility needed to close that zipper! :-)

My main problem with them are the gaskets though. I don't like a latex
gasket around my neck, as I really abhor a neck rash. These neck gaskets
are the first to become so wide that water can freely flow in and out,
because your (big) head has to go through them, stretching the darn
thing, whereas it should shrink to the size of your neck after that
every time. Besides, seeing how many of the drysuits have no protective
neoprene cover, getting a deep scratch from a sharp rock, branches or
thorns makes the entire term "dry" suit a lie. It's not cheap nor easy
for beginners to replace gaskets yourself, especially neck gaskets. I
replaced the wrist gaskets of two semi-dry tops, and although I'm rather
handy, it still took quite some skill and time.

Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and
cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed when
he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside your
leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can also cause
you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe.

Still, despite those horror stories many drysuit owners swear by their
virtues, and I have to agree that seeing them get out of their suit
after a day of paddling almost dry does have its merits.

If you get one, the tips I've picket up so far a get the latex
booties, but one size bigger than your shoe size, so that you can wear
socks inside them. That also makes it less important to have tight ankle
gaskets, so that your feet get more blood, in turn keeping them warmer.
Get a paddling dry suit which comes with an extra tunnel around the
waist, under which you can put the tunnel of your spraydeck, keeping the
seepage into your boat through the tunnel to a minimum.

Make sure that it's a paddling drysuit, with neoprene gaskets covering
the vulnerable latext gaskets, and adding to the safety by still having
some layer to keep water out in the case that you rip a gasket.

Always get one with a relief zipper, and if you do spend the pile of
money needed to get a Goretex dry suit, have a look at the Goretex
website to hear about how to treat it.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Wilko, in general I agree with your comments about drysuits.
For me the biggest advantage of a drysuit is that it can have
integral socks, which make a big difference in keeping feet warm,
especially for open-deck boaters. You skillfully enumerated the
disadvantages of cost, gasket discomfort, and safety problems.

Two specific disagreements:

Wilko wrote:
If you get one, the tips I've picket up so far a get the latex
booties, but one size bigger than your shoe size, so that you can
wear socks inside them.

Neoprene or fabric socks (goretex or other coated cloth) last longer
than latex. With all the scouting and portaging I do, I never got
more than a year out of latex socks. The goretex ones I have on now
have lasted at least 5 years.

Always get one with a relief zipper...

I have been very unhappy with my relief zipper, which leaks badly.

The newish Palm drysuit has the main zipper in an arrangment so that
men can use it for "relief" after taking off the PFD. I recommend
avoiding relief zipper if possible (not possible with Kokatat designs)
to save money and avoid possible failure.

Wilko wrote:

Have you ever actually worn a dry suit, Wilko? From your comments, it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use one 7-8 months of the year and my
experience varies dramatically from yours.
I personally don't like paddling drysuits. First of all, I think that
they just cost too much, especially for a beginning paddler. It's still
necessary to wear a thick enough layer of clothes underneath to keep out
the cold and to have some padding in the case of a close encounter with
hard objects.

It's called "insulation" and you need it regardless. I don't see your point.

It's also not all that easy to get into a new or newly
gasketed drysuit, having witnessed all too many wrestling drysuit owners
trying very hard to get into their prized garments...

If you trim the seals to fit properly and apply a bit of talc to the
inside, the slip on and off easily.

And then I haven't
started about the strength and agility needed to close that zipper! :-)

Properly lubed zippers aren't a problem.

My main problem with them are the gaskets though. I don't like a latex
gasket around my neck, as I really abhor a neck rash.

While some people do have problems with latex reactions, this is not a
given. In fact, it's not very common. For example, of the 50 or so
friends I can think of who own dry suits, only one has discovered that
he has a latex alergy.

These neck gaskets
are the first to become so wide that water can freely flow in and out,
because your (big) head has to go through them, stretching the darn
thing, whereas it should shrink to the size of your neck after that
every time.

This is just plain wrong!

Latex has a very good memory, which is why stretching seals to make them
fit better is largely a waste of time. Latex seals can readily stretch
over the largest head, then snap back to be very tight, if they're not
trimmed to fit properly.

Besides, seeing how many of the drysuits have no protective
neoprene cover, getting a deep scratch from a sharp rock, branches or
thorns makes the entire term "dry" suit a lie.

This is very misleading. While it's true that dry suits are not ideally
suited to negotiating thorny shores or frequent abrasion against rocks,
they're far more durable that you suggest. For sea kayaking, they're
extremely durable.

It's not cheap nor easy
for beginners to replace gaskets yourself, especially neck gaskets. I
replaced the wrist gaskets of two semi-dry tops, and although I'm rather
handy, it still took quite some skill and time.

It takes about an hour to do a pair of wrists or ankles (or latex socks)
and perhaps an hour and a half to do a neck seal. It's not difficult,
either. Wrist and ankle seals are ~$25/pair and a neck seal is ~$30-$35.
Properly treated, seals will last at least four seasons of frequent use.

Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and
cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed when
he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside your
leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can also cause
you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe.

Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile unless
they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just
spontaneously tear for no reason. Every seal failure I've seen has
occurred either when the paddler was putting the suit on or taking it
off. I have never seen a seal fail on the water. Barring some bizarre
circumstances, it simply doesn't happen.

Still, despite those horror stories many drysuit owners swear by their
virtues, and I have to agree that seeing them get out of their suit
after a day of paddling almost dry does have its merits.

All it takes is one experience of stripping off a damp wetsuit in a 30
degree F breeze to convince you that there has to be a better way. Dry
suits are that better way. Not only are they more comfortable to wear,
but at the end of the day, you slip out of it, throw on a jacket and
you're good to go.

If you get one, the tips I've picket up so far a get the latex
booties, but one size bigger than your shoe size, so that you can wear
socks inside them. That also makes it less important to have tight ankle
gaskets, so that your feet get more blood, in turn keeping them warmer.
Get a paddling dry suit which comes with an extra tunnel around the
waist, under which you can put the tunnel of your spraydeck, keeping the
seepage into your boat through the tunnel to a minimum.

Make sure that it's a paddling drysuit, with neoprene gaskets covering
the vulnerable latext gaskets, and adding to the safety by still having
some layer to keep water out in the case that you rip a gasket.

Always get one with a relief zipper, and if you do spend the pile of
money needed to get a Goretex dry suit, have a look at the Goretex
website to hear about how to treat it.

Good advice.

Gore-Text doesn't require any special treatment beyond rinsing it off
after use in salt water and letting it dry. It's advisable to re-apply a
durable water repellent (DWR) periodically, but I know very few people
who actually do that, myself included. Gore-Tex is considerably more
durable than coated fabrics and the contrary to what you might expect,
the breathability make a HUGE difference.

Brian Nystrom wrote:

Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and
cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed when
he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside your
leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can also cause
you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe.

Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile
unless they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just
spontaneously tear for no reason.

Except when the reason is old age!

In the March 23rd 1998 high water on the Illinois river in Oregon,
two people died from taking a "long swim". I know for a fact that
one of them tore his drysuit neck gasket during the trip.

OTOH it is amazing that some people wearing drysuits survived swims
over a mile long. That might not have happened in wetsuits.

Brian or anyone, when ya take good care of gaskets by washing salt
and perspiration off them, and by coating them with 303 Protectant
or equivalent, how do ya know when they are in need of replacement?

Bill Tuthill wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote:

Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and
cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed when
he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside your
leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can also cause
you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe.

Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile
unless they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just
spontaneously tear for no reason.


Except when the reason is old age!

In the March 23rd 1998 high water on the Illinois river in Oregon,
two people died from taking a "long swim". I know for a fact that
one of them tore his drysuit neck gasket during the trip.

The question is "when did he tear it?". Was it something that happened
in the middle of the trip and they continued anyway?

OTOH it is amazing that some people wearing drysuits survived swims
over a mile long. That might not have happened in wetsuits.

Brian or anyone, when ya take good care of gaskets by washing salt
and perspiration off them, and by coating them with 303 Protectant
or equivalent, how do ya know when they are in need of replacement?

Typically, one of two things will happen. Either the seals start to show
cracks or they start to get sticky/gooey on the edges. The cracking is
caused by UV and/or ozone exposure and the stickiness is typically
caused by too much contact with skin oil and/or sunscreens containing
oils. Another sign of breakdown is that they will stretch out and become
loose after having fit properly for years.

When the time comes to replace them, there are excellent instructions on
Kokatat's site. OS Systems sells very high quality replacement seals in
many sizes, so it's easier to get a close fit with their products than
most others. That minimizes the amount of trimming you need to do.

Brian Nystrom wrote:
Wilko wrote:

Have you ever actually worn a dry suit, Wilko? From your comments, it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use one 7-8 months of the year and my
experience varies dramatically from yours.

I'll mention that I wore one as a naval aviator when flying over cold
waters, and so have mucho hours in the thing. I wore a flight suit over
it to protect against abrasion, but it still got abused climbing into
and out of planes and clambering around on the CV flight deck. You get
used to it pretty quick. Ours were goretex with the socks, zipper
horizontal at chest level, and a relief zipper (yea...good luck with
that while wearing a harness).

I use it kayaking now. Plenty comfortable.

Brian Nystrom wrote:
Wilko wrote:

Have you ever actually worn a dry suit, Wilko? From your comments, it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use one 7-8 months of the year and my
experience varies dramatically from yours.

Have you ever actually paddled whitewater, Brian? From your comments it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use a wetsuit with a seperate drytop all
year around, both when it's freezing in the winter and when it's in the
middle of the summer.

Your comments may have some merit when talking about paddling at sea,
but I was talking about paddling whitewater.

I personally don't like paddling drysuits. First of all, I think that
they just cost too much, especially for a beginning paddler. It's
still necessary to wear a thick enough layer of clothes underneath to
keep out the cold and to have some padding in the case of a close
encounter with hard objects.

It's called "insulation" and you need it regardless. I don't see your
point.

Then maybe you should look again: Neoprene insulates rather well, unlike
the fabric of a dry suit *and* neoprene absorbs some of the impact when
you happen to bump into some rocks, unlike the fabric of a dry suit. You
*can* add layers between the wetsuit and the drytop, but the wetsuit
insulates and protects already without that.

It's also not all that easy to get into a new or newly gasketed
drysuit, having witnessed all too many wrestling drysuit owners trying
very hard to get into their prized garments...

If you trim the seals to fit properly and apply a bit of talc to the
inside, the slip on and off easily.

Yeah right!

I've owned a number of drytops, and although they do tend to become
easier to get into over time, some do take quite a bit of effort to get
in and out of. Since I have a couple of friends who've invested in
drysuits, I've had the pleasure of seeing them wrestle even more, and I
tend to help them get in and out of their garments like I help some of
my drytop wearing friends to get in and out of those.

And then I haven't started about the strength and agility needed to
close that zipper! :-)

Properly lubed zippers aren't a problem.

Of course, you don't have sand or other particles that seem to be
magnetically attracted to those zippers. Even in wetsuits I've seen
zippers get permanently stuck due to that kind of stuff, not to mention
the times that drysuit wearers have asked me to help them with their
zipper, in part because of the poor location of those zippers (on the
back).

My main problem with them are the gaskets though. I don't like a latex
gasket around my neck, as I really abhor a neck rash.

While some people do have problems with latex reactions, this is not a
given. In fact, it's not very common. For example, of the 50 or so
friends I can think of who own dry suits, only one has discovered that
he has a latex alergy.

I am not talking about latex allergy, I'm talking about the chafing and
rubbing of the gasket when you turn your head. Having two layers of
neoprene (as my current semi-drytop has) seems to solve that problem, by
having one (long) layer move with my neck's movement, and the other
layer staying in place on the outside.

These neck gaskets are the first to become so wide that water can
freely flow in and out, because your (big) head has to go through
them, stretching the darn thing, whereas it should shrink to the size
of your neck after that every time.

This is just plain wrong!

Sure Brian...

Latex has a very good memory, which is why stretching seals to make them
fit better is largely a waste of time. Latex seals can readily stretch
over the largest head, then snap back to be very tight, if they're not
trimmed to fit properly.

I have two drytops right now that call you a liar, as well as several
more that I have owned in the past. The wrist gaskets on each of those
have stretched enough to become less tight over time. The neck gasket on
the dry top of several of my friends (and my girlfriend's old drytop)
also have stretched enough as to not close the neck off completely any more.

Besides, seeing how many of the drysuits have no protective

neoprene cover, getting a deep scratch from a sharp rock, branches or
thorns makes the entire term "dry" suit a lie.

This is very misleading. While it's true that dry suits are not ideally
suited to negotiating thorny shores or frequent abrasion against rocks,
they're far more durable that you suggest.

Nonsense again. I'm talking about the vulnerability of latex gaskets
when they are without a neoprene cover. I don't say anything about the
vulnerability of the material that makes up the rest of the suit (or dry
top for that matter).

For sea kayaking, they're extremely durable.

Who is talking about sea kayaking? How many bramble bushes or other
shrubbery with thorns grow out on sea, Brian?

It takes about an hour to do a pair of wrists or ankles (or latex
socks)
and perhaps an hour and a half to do a neck seal. It's not difficult,
either. Wrist and ankle seals are ~$25/pair and a neck seal is ~$30-$35.
Properly treated, seals will last at least four seasons of frequent use.

Four seasons without stretching at all, eh?

BTW, I don't know what you earn per hour, but I do earn a bit more than
the material cost of those gaskets per hour, which means that sitting
there for 2,5 hours is quite a bit of time and money. Also, it also
takes considerably more time than just your run of the mill gasket
replacement if the gasket has torn up along the stitched line where the
latex meets the breathable material.

Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and
cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed
when he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside
your leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can
also cause you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe.

Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile unless
they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just
spontaneously tear for no reason. Every seal failure I've seen has
occurred either when the paddler was putting the suit on or taking it
off. I have never seen a seal fail on the water. Barring some bizarre
circumstances, it simply doesn't happen.

I've torn three wrist gaskets on the river. On after scratching it with
a thorn, one after hitting something under water and one along the
stitched line, where the stitch has started to create a little tear
along several of the holes. I noticed none of them untill the water
started to seep in. I've only seen two torn neck gaskets, but as larry's
story proves, that can have dire consequences on the river. Better have
an extra layer of neoprene over that gasket for exactly that reason.

Still, despite those horror stories many drysuit owners swear by their
virtues, and I have to agree that seeing them get out of their suit
after a day of paddling almost dry does have its merits.

All it takes is one experience of stripping off a damp wetsuit in a 30
degree F breeze to convince you that there has to be a better way. Dry
suits are that better way. Not only are they more comfortable to wear,
but at the end of the day, you slip out of it, throw on a jacket and
you're good to go.

I'm not convinced that spending that much money for a dry suit is indeed
such a good thing, and I've definately done my part of stripping off my
wetsuit at below freezing temperatures.

Gore-Text doesn't require any special treatment beyond rinsing it off
after use in salt water and letting it dry. It's advisable to re-apply a
durable water repellent (DWR) periodically, but I know very few people
who actually do that, myself included. Gore-Tex is considerably more
durable than coated fabrics and the contrary to what you might expect,
the breathability make a HUGE difference.

Yep, I do have two breathable (semi-) drytops, which do make a
difference, although with all the flipping that a rodeokayaker does,
their benefit is not as big as with someone who doesnt spend as much
time upside-down or dripping wet. :-)

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Wilko wrote:


Brian Nystrom wrote:

Wilko wrote:

Have you ever actually worn a dry suit, Wilko? From your comments, it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use one 7-8 months of the year and my
experience varies dramatically from yours.


Have you ever actually paddled whitewater, Brian? From your comments it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use a wetsuit with a seperate drytop all
year around, both when it's freezing in the winter and when it's in the
middle of the summer.

No, I don't paddle whitewater and never claimed to. The person who
posted the question didn't say anything about whitewater, either.

Your comments may have some merit when talking about paddling at sea,
but I was talking about paddling whitewater.

Fine, but you still haven't answered the question.

I personally don't like paddling drysuits. First of all, I think that
they just cost too much, especially for a beginning paddler. It's
still necessary to wear a thick enough layer of clothes underneath to
keep out the cold and to have some padding in the case of a close
encounter with hard objects.


It's called "insulation" and you need it regardless. I don't see your
point.


Then maybe you should look again: Neoprene insulates rather well, unlike
the fabric of a dry suit

Who said otherwise? That's a bogus argument, as any fool knows you need
insulating layers in a dry suit.

*and* neoprene absorbs some of the impact when
you happen to bump into some rocks, unlike the fabric of a dry suit.

Once more, who said otherwise?

You
*can* add layers between the wetsuit and the drytop, but the wetsuit
insulates and protects already without that.

And you can add as many layers under a dry suit as necessary, so it
doesn't make any difference if the fabric insulates or not. Unlike a
wetsuit, a Gore-Tex (or similar) dry suit breathes, so you don't end up
soaking wet from sweat.

It's also not all that easy to get into a new or newly gasketed
drysuit, having witnessed all too many wrestling drysuit owners
trying very hard to get into their prized garments...


If you trim the seals to fit properly and apply a bit of talc to the
inside, the slip on and off easily.

Yeah right!

Try it, it works! Ask around and you'll hear the same thing from others.
Nothing to it.

I've owned a number of drytops, and although they do tend to become
easier to get into over time, some do take quite a bit of effort to get
in and out of. Since I have a couple of friends who've invested in
drysuits, I've had the pleasure of seeing them wrestle even more, and I
tend to help them get in and out of their garments like I help some of
my drytop wearing friends to get in and out of those.

I'll bet you that I can get into and out of my dry suit faster than you
can get into and out of your wetsuit. As I said, if you trim the seals
to fit right and powder them, you slip right in. If you prefer to
struggle, that's fine with me.

Dry tops tend to be harder to get into and out of, since they have to
fit tight around the waist and the double tunnel adds a layer of
complication. I find them much more difficult than a full dry suit,
which is like slipping into coveralls. And yes, I own two dry tops
currently and have owned others in the past. The latest is a Bomber gear
with a Velcro waist closure that eliminates the struggle of getting the
damn thing past your shoulders.

And then I haven't started about the strength and agility needed to
close that zipper! :-)

Properly lubed zippers aren't a problem.

Of course, you don't have sand or other particles that seem to be
magnetically attracted to those zippers. Even in wetsuits I've seen
zippers get permanently stuck due to that kind of stuff,

I have never had a single problem with sand jamming a drysuit zipper,
not one. Having a flap over the zipper helps I'm sure, but I've never
even taken any special steps to keep the zippers clean. However, I don't
roll around in the sand, either.

not to mention
the times that drysuit wearers have asked me to help them with their
zipper, in part because of the poor location of those zippers (on the
back).

The vast majority of dry suits sold over here have a front zipper that
goes from the right shoulder to the left hip. It's easy to operate
without assistance. The large opening also makes getting in and out
really easy.

My main problem with them are the gaskets though. I don't like a
latex gasket around my neck, as I really abhor a neck rash.

While some people do have problems with latex reactions, this is not a
given. In fact, it's not very common. For example, of the 50 or so
friends I can think of who own dry suits, only one has discovered that
he has a latex alergy.


I am not talking about latex allergy, I'm talking about the chafing and
rubbing of the gasket when you turn your head. Having two layers of
neoprene (as my current semi-drytop has) seems to solve that problem, by
having one (long) layer move with my neck's movement, and the other
layer staying in place on the outside.

I've never had a chafing problem with the seals on a dry suit, or a dry
top, for that matter. If you don't like dry suit gaskets around your
neck, how do you deal with drytop gaskets, which are the same thing?

These neck gaskets are the first to become so wide that water can
freely flow in and out, because your (big) head has to go through
them, stretching the darn thing, whereas it should shrink to the size
of your neck after that every time.

This is just plain wrong!

Sure Brian...

I call 'em as I see 'em. Latex does not stretch appreciably in normal
use. Ask the manufacturers of the seals, if you don't believe me.

Latex has a very good memory, which is why stretching seals to make
them fit better is largely a waste of time. Latex seals can readily
stretch over the largest head, then snap back to be very tight, if
they're not trimmed to fit properly.

I have two drytops right now that call you a liar, as well as several
more that I have owned in the past. The wrist gaskets on each of those
have stretched enough to become less tight over time. The neck gasket on
the dry top of several of my friends (and my girlfriend's old drytop)
also have stretched enough as to not close the neck off completely any
more.

Then it's time to replace your seals. The stretching has nothing to do
with putting them on and taking them off, it has to do with the seals
degrading due to UV exposure, skin oil, sunscreen and so on. I don't
doubt that your seals are loosening up, but it's not for the reason you
think it is.

Besides, seeing how many of the drysuits have no protective

neoprene cover, getting a deep scratch from a sharp rock, branches or
thorns makes the entire term "dry" suit a lie.

This is very misleading. While it's true that dry suits are not
ideally suited to negotiating thorny shores or frequent abrasion
against rocks, they're far more durable that you suggest.

Nonsense again. I'm talking about the vulnerability of latex gaskets
when they are without a neoprene cover. I don't say anything about the
vulnerability of the material that makes up the rest of the suit (or dry
top for that matter).

Fine. Then buy garments with covers over the seals. It's not like they
aren't widely available. Problem solved.

For sea kayaking, they're extremely durable.

Who is talking about sea kayaking? How many bramble bushes or other
shrubbery with thorns grow out on sea, Brian?

Did the original question reference bramble bushes?

You make these blanket statements about latex seal durability as if
they're absolute truth, but conveniently forget to mention that they're
based on your experience while running around in bramble bushes and
rubbing against rocks, as if it doesn't make any difference. It make a
HUGE difference. If you abuse your dry suit or top, of course you're
going to have durability problems. I imagine your wetsuits get pretty
scarred up, too. Yes, I know that it doesn't matter much if a wet suit
gets shredded.

It takes about an hour to do a pair of wrists or ankles (or latex socks)

and perhaps an hour and a half to do a neck seal. It's not difficult,
either. Wrist and ankle seals are ~$25/pair and a neck seal is
~$30-$35. Properly treated, seals will last at least four seasons of
frequent use.

Four seasons without stretching at all, eh?

Yup. At the end of the forth season on my current suit, the seals
finally started showing signs of degredation and needed to be replaced.
That's with 7-8 months of use per year.

BTW, I don't know what you earn per hour, but I do earn a bit more than
the material cost of those gaskets per hour, which means that sitting
there for 2,5 hours is quite a bit of time and money.

Is this a joke or something? Who takes time off from work to fix their
dry suit seals? Be serious.

Also, it also
takes considerably more time than just your run of the mill gasket
replacement if the gasket has torn up along the stitched line where the
latex meets the breathable material.

That's what happens when you abuse them, let them go too long and wait
for a catastrophic failure before replacing them. When they start to
loosen up, it means that they're starting to fail. If that's happening
prematurely to your seals, you need to examine your care and maintenance
practices.

Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and
cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed
when he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside
your leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can
also cause you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe.

Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile unless
they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just
spontaneously tear for no reason. Every seal failure I've seen has
occurred either when the paddler was putting the suit on or taking it
off. I have never seen a seal fail on the water. Barring some bizarre
circumstances, it simply doesn't happen.

I've torn three wrist gaskets on the river. On after scratching it with
a thorn, one after hitting something under water and one along the
stitched line, where the stitch has started to create a little tear
along several of the holes. I noticed none of them untill the water
started to seep in. I've only seen two torn neck gaskets, but as larry's
story proves, that can have dire consequences on the river. Better have
an extra layer of neoprene over that gasket for exactly that reason.

I agree that keeping them covered is a very good idea. Again, who said
otherwise?

Still, despite those horror stories many drysuit owners swear by
their virtues, and I have to agree that seeing them get out of their
suit after a day of paddling almost dry does have its merits.


All it takes is one experience of stripping off a damp wetsuit in a 30
degree F breeze to convince you that there has to be a better way. Dry
suits are that better way. Not only are they more comfortable to wear,
but at the end of the day, you slip out of it, throw on a jacket and
you're good to go.

I'm not convinced that spending that much money for a dry suit is indeed
such a good thing, and I've definately done my part of stripping off my
wetsuit at below freezing temperatures.

Then don't buy one. But don't try to tell me or anyone else that it's
not a hell of a lot more comfortable than a wetsuit, both in use and
when donning and doffing the suit. Then again, if you haven't worn one,
you wouldn't know.

It's funny, whenever I get into a wetsuit vs. dry suit debate, it
ultimately comes down to a matter of money. Every one of the
anti-drysuit types I've encountered has been looking for a way to
justify not spending the extra money.

I agree with you that if you're going to beat the hell out of your
immersion gear, neoprene is more durable, or at least it will maintain
its meager insulation value when it gets shredded. That would make it a
better investment, since it's less costly to replace neoprene than
Gore-Tex.

On the other hand, if you take reasonable care of your immersion gear
and particularly if you're a sea kayaker, there's no comparison. Dry
suits win hands-down. The provide better comfort in use, better freedom
of movement, more versatility in adapting to weather conditions and
greater comfort at the end of the day when you take it off, among other
things.

Gore-Text doesn't require any special treatment beyond rinsing it off
after use in salt water and letting it dry. It's advisable to re-apply
a durable water repellent (DWR) periodically, but I know very few
people who actually do that, myself included. Gore-Tex is considerably
more durable than coated fabrics and the contrary to what you might
expect, the breathability make a HUGE difference.

Yep, I do have two breathable (semi-) drytops, which do make a
difference, although with all the flipping that a rodeokayaker does,
their benefit is not as big as with someone who doesnt spend as much
time upside-down or dripping wet. :-)

True.

Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling
experience. I found this article which was originally released as a
white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community.

http://tinyurl.com/6wozp

Bare position is that the Drysuit does not belong in a kayak. Even
though it gives more cold water protection, it also requires more
maintenance and training, which the recreational kayaker is probably
not prepared to provide. Granted, there are high performance expert
kayakers who can benefit from the higher performance, but the high
performance is trumped by the higher risk inherant in drysuits.

Especially consider that many rec paddlers would use the drysuit in
conditions that don't require the greater cold water protection, just
to stay dry and comfortable, and the risk is even more unjustifiable.
Wilko I am with you on this one!

Bare is basically saying that come a liability suit, They have
announced to the world, that they would not be liable for a kayaker
being injured or worse, while wearing a drysuit, since they do not
approve use of their drysuit while kayaking. Drysuits were designed for
diving where the diver has a breathing apparatus, and goes through
intense certification in order to dive, and the equipment is constantly
scrutinized for mtce requirements. The crossover application is not
approved by Bare. I realize there are now dedicated kayaking drysuits,
but that does not change the basic technology. The elimination of vent
valves, does not make them inherantly safer. And I would wonder what
the manufactures liability would be if challenged in court after an
accident.

I am a newbie to all this, and at one point considered getting a
drysuit. The mystic of going out in cold water, and rolling the kayak
like an Eskimo is powerful motivator for getting a drysuit. However,
upon further consideration, just because I can afford the technology,
does not mean I have any business buying a drysuit and putting myself
in a life treating situation that requires it. There is alot more
training and experience that I should gain before that day.

The use of a wetsuit is self regulating in that it is a passive device
that works to a certain temperature no matter the expertise of the
paddler, or the general condition of the suit. If it is to cold for the
wetsuit, the paddler should stay out of the water.

It seems to me for someone like me, a newbie, and I don't know Sparks
experience, that you experts should answer his question, not with a
discussion of the merits of the two systems. But by recognizing the
limits and aknowledging the risks involved in extreme cold water
paddling, and kill the Mystic. Just my two cents worth. TnT

On 14 Jan 2005 18:04:32 -0800, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling
experience. I found this article which was originally released as a
white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community.

http://tinyurl.com/6wozp
...

Am I alone in thinking that the drysuits worn for diving are just a tad
different than those worn paddling?

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Guns don't kill people, religions do