You are absolutely right about my PFD. After I got back on the boat - I
insisted that it be refitted correctly.

Oh, I have checked since I have been home - and there have been multiple
deaths of RAFTERS on the Lower Gauley over the years. A lot of kayakers,
too. But definitely a number of rafters.....

Ted, I really appreciate your and everyone else's comments - they are
helping to learn now all of the things that I should have made it my
business to know BEFORE I signed on for the trip.

Thanks so much!

"Ted Marz" wrote in message
...
OK,

1) It sounds like a pretty normal swim in whitewater except that

2) Your PFD wasn't fitted correctly. IT SHOULD NOT RIDE UP
SIGNIFICANTLY. The guides should have checked before launch that your
PFD was on and adjusted correctly.

He may have been correct in that no RAFTERS have died on the lower
Gauley. However, BOATERS have died on the lower Gauley. A couple of
years ago ('99), a kayaker flipped right at the put-in and got washed
into the boulder sieve at Koontz's Flume and, despite heroic efforts
of bystanders, died.

There was also a squirt boater who got pinned and died at Stairstep in
'86

(actually, I'm surprised that the AW Accident database only has 3
events for the lower Gauley... better than I expected. Of course, it
isn't that difficult a river and WV mandates a guide in every boat.)

There are a lot of undercut rocks on the Gauley - upper and lower.

Unless the river was in flood, there was no Class V anything on the
river. If it was in flood, you had no business being there, any of
you. This river is Class IV best case.

It is possible that the boat got cleaned of people intentionally. It
happens on some rivers. I would hope that it would never happen on
the Gauley... just too many undercut rocks to do this with any kind of
safety.

Ted

Yes, the rafting company gave us good instructions on how to place our feet
to stay in the raft, and, I knew this, too, from having previously done
Ocoee. But they never mentioned about holding on to a handle or other
similar device.... I did anyway, when I could.

And, they did tell us what to do if we fell out of the raft. And, actually,
what they had told us to do - really helped my girlfriend with her
situation. However, the first that I remember, after flying out of the raft,
was being on my stomach, facing Chuck (in the boat) as he was trying to
extend the T-Grip end of a paddle to me. This, on my part, was TOTALLY
wrong. I should have been on my back, feet first, going downstream - NOT
face down swimming UPstream to try to get to Chuck's paddle.

That's a good explanation for how he got back in the boat - and I thank you
for giving it.

As I said earlier, no matter what else may or may not have happened, Chuck
did save my life - and I am now still alive to tell about it. But, at the
time, I really did feel as though I was spending my last moments.....

But I have decided that I don't want to die among rocks in a river - all for
the thrill of whitewater waves (And they ARE thrilling - when all is going
as it should!).

Three years ago, I spent a week and a half trekking from 8000 ft. to 18000
ft. - to Mt. Everest Base Camp from Lukla. At the time, it was the hardest
thing that I have ever done. Not so anymore. The Lower Gauley now has that
definite distinction.

Thanks to everyone for all of this comments and help!

"Bill Tuthill" wrote in message
...
Celia Oblinger wrote:

Oh, and one other thing: Chuck told my friend and I that ALL FOUR
OF US were thrown from the boat.

If that was the case, then you must know how long my friend were
in danger - because the first time that I again saw Chuck - he was
in the boat, holding the T-Grip out to me......

How did HE get back in the boat???

Experienced rafters, a group in which most guides are included,
can climb back into a raft by grabbing onto the side handles or
rope-line, kicking the feet for acceleration, and doing a pull-up.
When a raft flips upside-down, the situation is similar but worse.

Before I answer all your questions, if someone else doesn't
answer them to your satisfaction, let me ask you for more details.

During the ABC Company's safety talk, did they mention what to do
if you fell out of the raft? Did they give you pointers in how to
stay in the raft by putting weight on your feet, as if you're skiing,
or holding onto some handle?

I'm learning, apparently, that what I experienced was "pretty normal".

I guess it would be normal to real whitewater rafters - but that, I am not.
It scared me to totally near death.

I am not one of those who will return for more heightened thrills, or even a
repeat of the ones that I experienced on the Lower Gauley.

But it WAS an experience that I will NEVER forget!

Thanks for your comments!

"Felsenmeer" wrote in message
...
Ahhh, the thrill of being ejected from a raft on the Lower Gauley! Same
thing happened to me, once upon a time. Sounds like a pretty typical
rafting trip to me ;-)

I would have no earthly idea of how to paddle a canoe through those
rapids.......

"Paddlec1" wrote in message
...
That's why I paddle whitewater, in a canoe.
I wish I were 52...... again.

You are absolutely right - it was choice made by me. And I take full
responsibility for not doing the needed research before I signed on to the
trip.

And that it is why I am so hesitant to place blame on our guide. And that is
why I have asked the questions of this group that I have.

And I have learned that other than the configuration of the small boat, with
only 4 people, with three on the left, and me on the right - that there
wasn't anything else done incorrectly.

For any possible future rafting trips, I would definitely insist on a larger
boat, with more people.

Thanks for your comments!

"Baker2150" wrote in message
...
Your raft guides didn't sound like they were as professional as they
guides
that I rafted the Upper Gauley with on two occasions, but it sounds like a
typical bad swim to me that all rafters should consider. It ain't no
Carowinds
ride. Its a choice. Sorry your trip turned out so badly. Go with a
recommended raft company thats known for service. There are a bunch of
them.
Research a little bit more next time maybe?

Celia,

About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies
typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If
your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a
IV really a III.

They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their
customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just
business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual.

Mike McCrea wrote:

Celia,

About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies
typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If
your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a
IV really a III.

They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their
customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just
business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual.

That's a load of crap! How many rafts have you guided?

JAM

J. A. M. wrote:
Mike McCrea wrote:

Celia,

About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies
typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If
your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a
IV really a III.

They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their
customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just
business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual.


That's a load of crap! How many rafts have you guided?

Talking about a load of carp: how many times did you paddle or raft the
Lower Gauley and encounter class V rapids?

I know more than a few rivers on both sides of the Altantic where the
rafting companies seem to have found some mysterious class V rapids that
are yet to be found or paddled by any other paddler, including locals
with hundreds of runs below their belt.

I've also overheard more than a few guides giving this kind of a "class
so and so" speech to their customers, even though they were talking
about runs that were at least one class easier than what they made them
seem to be.

If you want to deny that those practises are pretty common among raft
guides, go ahead... just don't expect experienced paddlers to take you
very serious.


--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Wilko wrote:

J. A. M. wrote:
Mike McCrea wrote:

Celia,

About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies
typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If
your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a
IV really a III.

They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their
customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just
business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual.


That's a load of crap! How many rafts have you guided?

Talking about a load of carp: how many times did you paddle or raft the
Lower Gauley and encounter class V rapids?

I know more than a few rivers on both sides of the Altantic where the
rafting companies seem to have found some mysterious class V rapids that
are yet to be found or paddled by any other paddler, including locals
with hundreds of runs below their belt.

I've also overheard more than a few guides giving this kind of a "class
so and so" speech to their customers, even though they were talking
about runs that were at least one class easier than what they made them
seem to be.

If you want to deny that those practises are pretty common among raft
guides, go ahead... just don't expect experienced paddlers to take you
very serious.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

The Lower Gauley is class 4. Unless you've been stuffed under one of the rocks or run over by a raft. Then it's class 6!

Heavens Gate is not that hard to run. It's easier than Upper Mash or Pure Screaming Hell. The left gate is under cut but you have to get close to it for maximum effect. A large rock, just down stream on the left is also a danger. The face of it is flat, some say concave, and it splits the current. I've seen swimmers held against it for several seconds before washing out.

JAM

I stand corrected Jimbob; everyone knows a raft guide would never
exaggerate and I'm sure Celia's trip really "started out with a Class
V, and ended with a Class V. They were all pretty much evenly spaced
out."