Your raft guides didn't sound like they were as professional as they guides
that I rafted the Upper Gauley with on two occasions, but it sounds like a
typical bad swim to me that all rafters should consider. It ain't no Carowinds
ride. Its a choice. Sorry your trip turned out so badly. Go with a
recommended raft company thats known for service. There are a bunch of them.
Research a little bit more next time maybe?

You are absolutely right - it was choice made by me. And I take full
responsibility for not doing the needed research before I signed on to the
trip.

And that it is why I am so hesitant to place blame on our guide. And that is
why I have asked the questions of this group that I have.

And I have learned that other than the configuration of the small boat, with
only 4 people, with three on the left, and me on the right - that there
wasn't anything else done incorrectly.

For any possible future rafting trips, I would definitely insist on a larger
boat, with more people.

Thanks for your comments!

"Baker2150" wrote in message
...
Your raft guides didn't sound like they were as professional as they
guides
that I rafted the Upper Gauley with on two occasions, but it sounds like a
typical bad swim to me that all rafters should consider. It ain't no
Carowinds
ride. Its a choice. Sorry your trip turned out so badly. Go with a
recommended raft company thats known for service. There are a bunch of
them.
Research a little bit more next time maybe?

I would have no earthly idea of how to paddle a canoe through those
rapids.......

"Paddlec1" wrote in message
...
That's why I paddle whitewater, in a canoe.
I wish I were 52...... again.

Paddling is a whole lot of fun, if you can stay in control (yeah, I know, you
paid someone to take care of that). Just thought I'd recommed that you try it
again on easier water, and maybe move up to bigger water later if that suits
you. Good luck.

Dennis

OK,

1) It sounds like a pretty normal swim in whitewater except that

2) Your PFD wasn't fitted correctly. IT SHOULD NOT RIDE UP
SIGNIFICANTLY. The guides should have checked before launch that your
PFD was on and adjusted correctly.

He may have been correct in that no RAFTERS have died on the lower
Gauley. However, BOATERS have died on the lower Gauley. A couple of
years ago ('99), a kayaker flipped right at the put-in and got washed
into the boulder sieve at Koontz's Flume and, despite heroic efforts
of bystanders, died.

There was also a squirt boater who got pinned and died at Stairstep in
'86

(actually, I'm surprised that the AW Accident database only has 3
events for the lower Gauley... better than I expected. Of course, it
isn't that difficult a river and WV mandates a guide in every boat.)

There are a lot of undercut rocks on the Gauley - upper and lower.

Unless the river was in flood, there was no Class V anything on the
river. If it was in flood, you had no business being there, any of
you. This river is Class IV best case.

It is possible that the boat got cleaned of people intentionally. It
happens on some rivers. I would hope that it would never happen on
the Gauley... just too many undercut rocks to do this with any kind of
safety.

Ted

You are absolutely right about my PFD. After I got back on the boat - I
insisted that it be refitted correctly.

Oh, I have checked since I have been home - and there have been multiple
deaths of RAFTERS on the Lower Gauley over the years. A lot of kayakers,
too. But definitely a number of rafters.....

Ted, I really appreciate your and everyone else's comments - they are
helping to learn now all of the things that I should have made it my
business to know BEFORE I signed on for the trip.

Thanks so much!

"Ted Marz" wrote in message
...
OK,

1) It sounds like a pretty normal swim in whitewater except that

2) Your PFD wasn't fitted correctly. IT SHOULD NOT RIDE UP
SIGNIFICANTLY. The guides should have checked before launch that your
PFD was on and adjusted correctly.

He may have been correct in that no RAFTERS have died on the lower
Gauley. However, BOATERS have died on the lower Gauley. A couple of
years ago ('99), a kayaker flipped right at the put-in and got washed
into the boulder sieve at Koontz's Flume and, despite heroic efforts
of bystanders, died.

There was also a squirt boater who got pinned and died at Stairstep in
'86

(actually, I'm surprised that the AW Accident database only has 3
events for the lower Gauley... better than I expected. Of course, it
isn't that difficult a river and WV mandates a guide in every boat.)

There are a lot of undercut rocks on the Gauley - upper and lower.

Unless the river was in flood, there was no Class V anything on the
river. If it was in flood, you had no business being there, any of
you. This river is Class IV best case.

It is possible that the boat got cleaned of people intentionally. It
happens on some rivers. I would hope that it would never happen on
the Gauley... just too many undercut rocks to do this with any kind of
safety.

Ted

I wouldn't call this a "near death" unless you were given CPR.
It sounds like just a bad swim for you, and a terribly bad swim
for your friend, who went under a rock.

Jokes are supposed to be funny. Are prison jokes considered funnier
in WV than elsewhere?

Commercial passengers who "swim" or experience "carnage" are almost
twice as likely to return, various studies indicate. Many companies
give guests a "thrill" by maneuvering them into the biggest waves.
However guides should be sensitive to what their guests want, and
it can't hurt to ask.

Many mishaps occur right after lunch. Usually I wait to eat until
the big rapids are behind me. Did you consider refusing to continue
in that same boat configuration after lunch?

It's always best when guides know the river well, especially on rivers
with many hazards (e.g. undercut rocks). I don't know the Gauley,
but standing up above a rapid with rock strainers is a bad idea!

It could be that his standing up rocked the boat enough to dump you
and your friend out. It could also be that looking back at him
interrupted your concentration and led to your falling out.

Usually paddle boats have more than two people, and you made it seem
like Charlene was on the same side as Chuck. That's odd.

Hope you didn't tip your guide!

No, from everyone else's comments, I suppose that it wasn't what anyone
other than me would call "near death". But for me, it was close enough.

As for Chuck giving his guests what they wanted, there were only two guests,
me and my friend. And then was, of course, Charlene - who did, yes, sit on
the same side as Chuck. So we actually had three on one side (the left
side), and me, and only me, on the right side.

You are insightful - because our swimming was shortly after lunch. But it
wouldn't have done any good to have eaten earlier or later - as we started
our with a Class V, and ended with a Class V. They were all pretty much
evenly spaced out.

When I was supposed to be paddling, the last thing that I would have been
doing was looking back. No, I looked back at other times. And I don't really
think that he was standing when we all went swimming. But my friend seems to
think that he actually did it for fun......

The Lower Gauley has LOTS of huge, undercut rocks - and lots of seives. As
far as I am concerned, there is NO good place to "go swimming".

And, no, I didn't tip him!

I really appreciated your comments, Bill - as well as those of everyone
else - as they have given me a clearer understanding of what I was getting
in to. It is my own fault for not finding out all of this stuff BEFORE I
went - EXPECIALLY the raft configuration of the trip. A small boat, on Class
V waves, with four people - three on the left, and me on the right - I
believe is what did it. If we had been in a larger boat with more people, I
don't believe that it would have happened.

Thanks again for taking the time to comment - I really do appreciate it!

Celia,

About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies
typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If
your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a
IV really a III.

They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their
customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just
business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual.

Mike McCrea wrote:

Celia,

About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies
typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If
your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a
IV really a III.

They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their
customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just
business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual.

That's a load of crap! How many rafts have you guided?

JAM