Last time I was at Disneyland, I wasn't asked to sign a waiver that
stated I understood that I might die which I had to do even on the South
Fork American.

Maybe I was good at picking companies (the now defunct Chili Bar Outdoor
Company) but all the times I have been with them (5) we were given a
good and serious safety talk and every guest's PFD was hand checked by a
guide. We were told how to high side and the guide gave a couple of high
side drills to make sure we were awake. In springtime water, a light
boat or boat with dubious paddlers was given an extra guide (I assume a
recent grad of guide school who hadn't solo'd yet. When I went on the
North Fork American Chamberlain Falls (an honest IV?) The Safety talk
was twice as long. As far as I know everyone had been on at least one
other raft trip. Instead of just mentioning swimming for yourself, it
was emphasized that we had to be ready look after ourselves if we were
in the water and couldn't see the guide. Before we shoved, off the lead
guide looked everyone in the eye to look for anyone who wasn't ready.
In the water, before the real stuff came up (which happens pretty quick
on the NF) we had to spin the boat and practice up and down ferrys until
the guide was happy with the paddling. Even though I had been on the SF
3 times, my weak back paddle was addressed and corrected. I remember
well his line when I queried him about how hard he worked us upstream,
"In class three, there's places you don't want to swim. In class 4
there's places *I* don't want to swim."

I still managed to fall out when we hit the eddy line at the bottom of
Chamberlain Falls which I suppose is a lot better than falling out at
the top.

We did a raft surf at the last real rapid on that run--I want to
remember it was called "staircase". We were bow upstream and I was a bow
paddler. That was an amazing experience/feeling; one of the highlights
of my outdoor life which includes many years of skiing and surfing.


Aww, Damn! Now I'm starting to wish I hadn't let the summer get away
without putting the daughter in the car and doing a American River trip.
(eight hours each way)

Kurt

"J. A. M."

Typed in Message-ID:


So, what I have seen, and read, is that experienced river runners tend to
down grade a river.

JAM


Not at all, I am just stating a realistic view of the difficulty of this rive.
Rafting companies do tend to dramatize the difficulty rating, bu there is
nothing class V about the Lower Gauley. With the exception of Mash and Pure
Screaming Hell, most of the rapids are very straight forward. Even the rapid
that started this thread, Gates of Heaven, only requires that you miss a hole
on the right and not let your boat get pushed too far to the left at the
bottom, it just a matter of paddling down the middle. Big waves don't increase
the difficulty rating on a river.
SYOTR
Larry C.

Larry Cable wrote:

Not at all, I am just stating a realistic view of the difficulty of this rive.
Rafting companies do tend to dramatize the difficulty rating, bu there is
nothing class V about the Lower Gauley. With the exception of Mash and Pure
Screaming Hell, most of the rapids are very straight forward. Even the rapid
that started this thread, Gates of Heaven, only requires that you miss a hole
on the right and not let your boat get pushed too far to the left at the
bottom, it just a matter of paddling down the middle. Big waves don't increase
the difficulty rating on a river.

They do increase the intensity of a swim, however. On the other hand,
swimming in big water might be safer (except for the problem of hypothermia)
than swimming in low water, because there's less possibility of entrapment.
I've been surprised in recent years by the length of swims taken and survived
by rafters wearing drysuits. Several rafters swam for several miles (IIRC)
below Green Wall on the Illinois river in Oregon.

Larry, the AWA Lower Gauley description says that Koontz Flume is IV/IV+
although there's a sneak on the left, not advised due to kayakers waiting
their turn to surf Five Boat Hole. The description does not mention that
The Mashes are class IV. It does say Pure Screaming Hell is class IV+.

http://americanwhitewater.org/rivers/id/2379/

But why does the description assign difficulty as III-IV (V)? Is the (V)
a high-water rating? Usually I take that notation to mean that there is
one class V rapid on the run, usually portaged.

: Bill Tuthill

Typed in essage-ID:

Big waves don't increase
the difficulty rating on a river.

They do increase the intensity of a swim, however. On the other hand,
swimming in big water might be safer (except for the problem of

hypothermia)
than swimming in low water, because there's less possibility of entrapment.
I've been surprised in recent years by the length of swims taken and survived
by rafters wearing drysuits.

Assuming that one didn't just screw the pooch and swim from the absolute top,
where there is no reason to flip, the swim would be less than 100 yards at
release leaves. You may swim farther than that before you get to shore or back
in the boat, but you are already in the pool below.

Go to AW safety, then standard rated rapids for class VI. Mash and PSH are the
ones that they rate staright class IV at release levels.

Koontz's Flume can be a booger. I think that it gets overrated because of the
danger factor from the river right sieve,
but I don't have a problem with calling it a class IV.

But why does the description assign difficulty as III-IV (V)? Is the (V)
a high-water rating? Usually I take that notation to mean that there is
one class V rapid on the run, usually portaged.

I don't know, but that is what I would assume also. But that isn't really the
case with Lower Gauley. I've ran it at levels above 6000 cfs (release leave is
about 2800 cfs) and although you probably didn't want to come out of your boat,
the difficulty factory didn't go up a lot.



SYOTR
Larry C.

Walt wrote:

"J. A. M." wrote:

I've been pushing rubber for 15 years and I have never heard anyone promote the trip as an amusement park ride. In fact just the opposite is true. The dangers and the level of physical activity required are spelled out in great detail.

I sincerely wish that what you are saying were true. Maybe the
standards are higher in your neck of the woods. Where do you paddle?

--
//-Walt
//
// http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif

West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Colorado, Arizona

JAM

Larry Cable wrote:

"J. A. M."

Typed in Message-ID:

So, what I have seen, and read, is that experienced river runners tend to
down grade a river.

JAM


Not at all, I am just stating a realistic view of the difficulty of this rive.
Rafting companies do tend to dramatize the difficulty rating, bu there is
nothing class V about the Lower Gauley. With the exception of Mash and Pure
Screaming Hell, most of the rapids are very straight forward. Even the rapid
that started this thread, Gates of Heaven, only requires that you miss a hole
on the right and not let your boat get pushed too far to the left at the
bottom, it just a matter of paddling down the middle. Big waves don't increase
the difficulty rating on a river.
SYOTR
Larry C.

I never said that the Lower Gauley was class 5. It was the original poster that had it mixed up.

JAM

"J. A. M." wrote

I never said that the Lower Gauley was class 5. It was the original poster that had it mixed up.

No Jimbob, you just stated that it is a load of crap that raft guides
often overstate the difficulty of rapids and that it is another load
of crap that the average raft customer and companies treat river
rafting like some kind of amusement ride.

For someone who has been pushing rubber for 15 years you seem myopic
to practices that many well-travelled and experienced paddlers find
all too common.

(BTW – I recently led my 200th paddling trip, so I've given my share
of safety talks)

Been boating (kayak) the Gauley (Upper and lower)for 'bout ten years
now. I'm 55.
I would agree that the guides (all of 'em as far as I can tell) do
exaggerate the difficulty of the rapids and rivers. This makes the
trip more fun and significant. Of course, sometimes it's a good idea
to put the fear into the customers so they will take it seriously. I
also believe that a lot of whitewater rivers are treated as an
amusement park ride. If not by commercial outfitters and guides,
certianly by the paying public.
Of course, one persons class III is anothers class V. I recall that
Nantahala falls (a very popular rapid on a very popular river in
western NC, USA) used to be rated a V. Most would agree that it is a
III. (As the late Mr Nealy said, "It hasn't gotten easier, we've
gotten better.") It has also claimed several lives in recent years.
The lower G has some bad spots, all rivers do, but I would agree with
most respondents that it is not a class V river. Even at high levels.
Any body of moving water can be dangerous. If you get on it, you are
definately taking your life into your own, or someone elses', hand. It
is _your_ responsibility to make sure that those hands are up to the
task.
Enough rambling. Here is a good rating scale.

International System for Rating Rapids
This section © 2002 by David Petterson of Calgary Paddlers.


Class I, Easy. Fast moving water with riffles and small waves.
Swimming is pleasant, shore easily reached. A nice break from
paddling. Almost all gear and equipment is recovered.
Boat is just slightly scratched.

Class II, Novice. Straightforward rapids with wide, clear channels
which are evident without scouting. Swimming to eddies requires
moderate effort. Climbing out of river may involve
slippery rocks and shrub-induced lacerations. Paddle travels great
distance downstream
requiring lengthy walk. Something unimportant is missing. Boat hits
submerged rock leaving visible dent on frame or new gash in plastic.

Class III, Intermediate. Rapids with moderate, irregular waves which
may be difficult to avoid. Water is swallowed. Legs are ground
repeatedly against sharp, pointy rocks. Several eddies
are missed while swimming. Difficult decision to stay with boat
results in moment of terror when swimmer realizes they are downstream
of boat. Paddle is recirculated in small hole way upstream. All
personal possessions are removed from boat and floated in different
directions. Paddling partners run along river bank shouting helpful
instructions. Boat is munched against large boulder hard enough to
leave series of deep gouges. Sunglasses fall off.

Class IV, Advanced. Water is generally lots colder than Class III.
Intense, powerful but predictable rapids requiring precise swimming in
turbulent water. Swimming may require `must' moves above dangerous
hazards. Must moves are downgraded to `strongly recommended' after
they are missed. Sensation of disbelief experienced while about to
swim large drops. Frantic swimming towards shore is alternated with
frantic swimming away from shore to avoid strainers. Rocks are clung
to with death grip. Paddle is completely forgotten. One shoe is
removed. Hydraulic pressure permanently removes waterproof box with
all the really important stuff. Paddle partners running along stream
look genuinely concerned while lofting throw ropes 20 feet behind
swimmer. Paddle partners stare slack-jawed and point in amazement at
boat which is finally pinned by major feature. Climbing up river bank
involves inverted tree. One of those spring loaded pins that attaches
watch to wristband is missing. Contact lenses are
moved to rear of eyeballs.

Class V, Expert. The water in this rapid is usually under 42 degrees
F. Most gear is destroyed on rocks within minutes if not seconds. If
the boat survives, it is need of about three days of
repair. There is no swimming, only frantic movements to keep from
becoming one with
the rocks and to get a breath from time to time. Terror and panic set
in as you realize your paddle partners don't have a chance in heck of
reaching you. You come to a true understanding of the terms maytagging
and pinballing. That hole that looked like nothing when
scouted, has a hydraulic that holds you under the water until your
lungs are close to bursting. You come out only to realize you still
have 75% of the rapid left to swim. Swim to the eddy?
What #%^&*#* eddy!? This rapid usually lasts a mile or more. Hydraulic
pressure within the first few seconds removes everything that can come
off your body. This includes gloves, shoes, neoprene socks,
sunglasses, hats, and clothing. The rocks take care of your
fingers, toes, and ears. That $900.00 dry suit, well it might hold up
to the rocks. Your
paddle is trash. If there is a strainer, well, just hope it is old and
rotten so it breaks. Paddle partners on shore are frantically trying
to run and keep up with you. Their horror is
reflected in their faces as they stare at how you are being tossed
around! They are hoping to remember how to do CPR. They also really
hope the cooler with the beer is still intact. They are going to need
a cold one by the time you get out! Climbing out of this happens after
the
rapid is over. You will probably need the help of a backboard,
cervical collar and Z-rig. Even though you have broken bones,
lacerations, puncture wounds, missing digits & ears,
and a concussion, you won't feel much pain because you will have
severe hypothermia. Enjoy your stay in the hospital: with the time you
take recovering, you won't get another vacation for 3 years.

Class VI, World Class. Not recommended for swimming.