On 14 Nov 2003 19:53:09 -0600, noah wrote:

[snip]

Joe,

I *think* by now that you know that I listen to your opinion. The
problem comes in when some people take the postings and topics way off
from "rec.boats", and way off from civil discussion.

I have no desire to "police" rec.boats, and I admit enjoying
discussions that waver from "boating" from time to time, but there is
a lot of political nonsense and bashing here.

I submit to you that it does not belong here.

No argument there!

It is a *very* small number of people who instigate these kinds of rancorous
threads, but then there's a sort of "pile-on" mentality once the discussion gets
up a head of steam.

One thing that could help at least a bit is when one of these kinds of threads
accidentally veers back into some "boaty" area, those who followup should edit
their subject line to reflect the change.

This will give at least the appearance that there are a few discussions here
that are other than highly unpleasant personal attacks and insults.

Joe Parsons

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:25:07 GMT, Joe Parsons
wrote:

On 07 Nov 2003 16:00:59 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

But such a requirement involves rules, rules demand a judge, etc. If anybody
can report anybody else to an ISP for posts they aren't pleased with, I'd hate
to say it but the ISP's will be busy for weeks listening to people from
rec.boats whine about one another.

ISP's don't bother with Usenet squabbles. They really don't.

Joe Parsons

Yes they do, Joe.
Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from wrecked.ot-boats.noah.
....as you were. )

On 07 Nov 2003 16:00:59 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

This should be researched I guess.

My understanding is that ISPs take abuse seriously, they can't really afford
not to and it's easy enough for them to do. The research would be provided
by the charter holder and simply double-checked by the ISP staff. The ISP
deals in volume so cutting off one customer is too small a number to have an
impact on revenue. The poster would then have to get an entirely new account
with a different ISP. I would think this would be good motivation for not
screwing around.

In fact I would be inclined to think that it would be resolved in the formal
warning phase.


I'm missing a couple of pages from this chapter. Notice that the most
outrageous
flamers, and some of the most prolific pot stirrers, hide behind phony screen
names, phony (not just munged) e-mail addresses, etc. How do you report
to anybody?

Requiring that everybody post with a real name and a real e-mail address would
go a long way toward curing the underlying problem. Not because they would be
reportable, but because a good number of these people would think twice about
some of the statements they make if they were actually identifiable with their
posts.

But such a requirement involves rules, rules demand a judge, etc. If anybody
can report anybody else to an ISP for posts they aren't pleased with, I'd hate
to say it but the ISP's will be busy for weeks listening to people from
rec.boats whine about one another.

Chuck, do you enjoy the level of OT posting found here?
Do you enjoy the personal attacks that outnumber the boating-related
posts?

I am guessing that you don't, but I have been wrong before.
Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from wrecked.ot-boats.noah.
....as you were. )

Chuck, do you enjoy the level of OT posting found here?

I don't mind it. If I go to a marine trade event or a yacht club meeting,
everybody is discussing a wide variety of subjects that certainly include
boats. It has been my practice to avoid being among the leaders in initiating
OT posts, but I'm not shy about contributing an opinion to the pot once it's
boiling.

Do you enjoy the personal attacks that outnumber the boating-related
posts?

No, of course not. That's a separate issue from the OT posts. In most cases,
the people who resort to personal attack are either not particularly adept in
social discourse, or (more often) become frustrated with a lack of mental or
verbal ability to discuss a subject on an issues basis. That frustration is
often manifest by name-calling and flaming. Such behavior is more commonly
encountered in emotionally charged topics like politics and religion- but it is
also a regular element in on-topic posts.
(Bayliner, anyone?)

It's the tone of so many of the posts that is disturbing, more so than the
subject matter. Too many times the group forgets how to disagree without
becoming disagreeable. I'm sure we have all been guilty at times.

On 15 Nov 2003 02:48:51 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Chuck, do you enjoy the level of OT posting found here?

I don't mind it. If I go to a marine trade event or a yacht club meeting,
everybody is discussing a wide variety of subjects that certainly include
boats. It has been my practice to avoid being among the leaders in initiating
OT posts, but I'm not shy about contributing an opinion to the pot once it's
boiling.

Do you enjoy the personal attacks that outnumber the boating-related
posts?

No, of course not. That's a separate issue from the OT posts. In most cases,
the people who resort to personal attack are either not particularly adept in
social discourse, or (more often) become frustrated with a lack of mental or
verbal ability to discuss a subject on an issues basis. That frustration is
often manifest by name-calling and flaming. Such behavior is more commonly
encountered in emotionally charged topics like politics and religion- but it is
also a regular element in on-topic posts.
(Bayliner, anyone?)

It's the tone of so many of the posts that is disturbing, more so than the
subject matter. Too many times the group forgets how to disagree without
becoming disagreeable. I'm sure we have all been guilty at times.


LOL! ...in appreciation.

Since you are one of the prime movers-and-shakers in this group, your
opinion is very important. I would ask you, though, if you think it
reasonable to keep the topics either related to boating, or respectful
in nature if OT?

How would you think that could be achieved? Or don't you think it
would be desirable to define rec.boats as a substantially "boating"
newsgroup?

You have "tenure" here, and I respect that. I also respect and admire
your boating experience and "bedtime stories" ), but I gotta' ask
why you don't seem to take a position, or offer an alternative,
regarding blatant OT posting. Sometimes you appear to have no
opinion, other times you seem to protest against "moderation". As a
born Irishman, I assure you that I have no interest in "moderation".
Þ
Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from wrecked.ot-boats.noah.
....as you were. )

I would ask you, though, if you think it
reasonable to keep the topics either related to boating, or respectful
in nature if OT?

Most of the time, I support respectful posting. Other than that, I'm for as few
rules as we can get away with.

but I gotta' ask
why you don't seem to take a position, or offer an alternative,
regarding blatant OT posting.

because I'm not one of the 2 or 3 people postin to the NG who can claim any
sort of
virginity in the OT category. When it comes to OT, I'm a whore- not a maiden.

Sometimes you appear to have no
opinion, other times you seem to protest against "moderation". As a
born Irishman, I assure you that I have no interest in "moderation".

IMO, it's not within my rights to dictate what another person can say or where
they can say it. I have stated a preference for *how* people should try to
exchange ideas, but nobody died and left me in charge. Each of us has to be
responsible for him or herself.

Those who believe its OK to do nothing but
flame, troll, pick fights, etc under the current system (or lack of same) won't
feel any differently if there are more stringent rules in place. The
determining factor is how each of us see ourselves and our place in the world,
rather than what we think the rules of the NG are, or ought to be.

I sincerely believe the outrage about OT posts would be less if there were a
more manageable number of them and if people
behaved respectfully toward one another.

From a personal standpoint, I always feel particularly badly when somebody from
the left side of the spectrum gets mean and nasty and starts calling names,
etc.
It's a fundament precept of liberalism that other people are entitled to their
ideas, too, and that there is no danger in comparing and contrasting
perspectives and opinions.
The left should encourage debate, discussion, and dissent.

It's more understandable when folks who feel that above all else we must stick
with what they believe is "tried and true" get nervous about ideas that are
somewhat otside the main stream, but: any idea that cannot withstand a
challenge from an opposite concept is so extremely weak it
should be reevaluated in any event. Personally, I don't feel threatened when a
partisan from the right expresses an opinion.

We each have things we could learn from one another, but the entire process is
frustrated when our counterpoints are
cloaked in flame and insult.

Gould,
Do you find the majority of the OT posters interests are in flaming and
enjoying the insults instead of actually discussing any subject matter
seriously? While there are a few who enjoy the discussion, most are
interested in calling the people "trash" republican Nazis, liberal
bedwetters, doctor killers, baby killers or my personal favorites "stupid
technician" and liar.
IMO, this group is not interested in discussing anything except how ignorant
their opposition is.
Then you have a few who enjoy trolling for subjects just to see how easy it
is to start a long running off topic thread.

And lastly, their a few people who are actually interested in seriously
discussing the subject. Those normally are not regulars, because the topic
soon degrades into a flame war, and they bow out of the topic.

This group is what the regulars want it to be, a forum to make their
opposition look stupid. In reality, it makes all who participate in the
discussion look bad.



"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Chuck, do you enjoy the level of OT posting found here?

I don't mind it. If I go to a marine trade event or a yacht club meeting,
everybody is discussing a wide variety of subjects that certainly include
boats. It has been my practice to avoid being among the leaders in
initiating
OT posts, but I'm not shy about contributing an opinion to the pot once
it's
boiling.

Do you enjoy the personal attacks that outnumber the boating-related
posts?

No, of course not. That's a separate issue from the OT posts. In most
cases,
the people who resort to personal attack are either not particularly adept
in
social discourse, or (more often) become frustrated with a lack of mental
or
verbal ability to discuss a subject on an issues basis. That frustration
is
often manifest by name-calling and flaming. Such behavior is more commonly
encountered in emotionally charged topics like politics and religion- but
it is
also a regular element in on-topic posts.
(Bayliner, anyone?)

It's the tone of so many of the posts that is disturbing, more so than the
subject matter. Too many times the group forgets how to disagree without
becoming disagreeable. I'm sure we have all been guilty at times.

Paul Garcia wrote:
Gould,
Do you find the majority of the OT posters interests are in flaming and
enjoying the insults instead of actually discussing any subject matter
seriously? While there are a few who enjoy the discussion, most are
interested in calling the people "trash" republican Nazis, liberal
bedwetters, doctor killers, baby killers or my personal favorites "stupid
technician" and liar.
IMO, this group is not interested in discussing anything except how ignorant
their opposition is.


Yep. Same old asswiper who's been here before under other IDs.

Plonk.


--
Email sent to is never read.

Gould,
Do you find the majority of the OT posters interests are in flaming and
enjoying the insults instead of actually discussing any subject matter
seriously? While there are a few who enjoy the discussion, most are
interested in calling the people "trash" republican Nazis, liberal
bedwetters, doctor killers, baby

killers or my personal favorites "stupid
technician" and liar.

IMO, this group is not interested in discussing anything except how ignorant
their opposition is.
Then you have a few who enjoy trolling for subjects just to see how easy it
is to start a long running off topic thread.

Making rec.boats no different than the rest of the planet. :-)

Very few people are able to carry on an issues oriented discussion beyond a
single, basic point or two. Some struggle to get that far. We modern folk have
little regard for developing our minds through philosophical discourse. We
acquire our ideas ready made from various televangelizing and political gurus,
and although few of us understand why we hold certain opinions, most of us are
very loyal to our chosen brand of philosophy. Still, we all *feel* (as oppopsed
to think or know) that certain things must somehow be right- and it's human
nature to perceive ideas and people we can't understand as a threat. There are
two customary ways to respond to the threat- one being to eliminate the threat
by fostering understanding and the other to
attempt to drive the threatening element away by making the environment
unpleasant.

We all learn how to call names and argue at a very early age. 2 and 3 year old
kids squabble over toys, and one of the first words used in social interaction
between little babies is "mine!" Not everybody learns to reason and evaluate
ideas separately from personalities, and not everybody learns to treat the
"opposition" with at least minimal courtesy, if not respect. It can be
difficult for any of us to summon up the maturity required to admit that we are
often wrong, that none of our positions or opinions are unquestionable, and
that the horrible person on the "wrong" side of a question probably has a few
valuable points that would help us to grow if we considered them. Even so, I do
believe there are a number of socially productive reasons for all of us to
endeavor to rise above whacking one another with stuffed animals and
hollering'"Mine!" all the time.

Childish insult and flame fests are going to make boring reading, whether
on-topic or off. IMO, the most unpleasant people in a group like this aren't
those who think or believe certain things about boats, politics,
religion, or etc.....the most unpleasant people are those who choose to behave
unpleasantly and have never learned, (or choose to ignore), the basic
conventions of
civil discussion.

On 14 Nov 2003 20:09:13 -0600, noah wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:25:07 GMT, Joe Parsons
wrote:

On 07 Nov 2003 16:00:59 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

But such a requirement involves rules, rules demand a judge, etc. If anybody
can report anybody else to an ISP for posts they aren't pleased with, I'd hate
to say it but the ISP's will be busy for weeks listening to people from
rec.boats whine about one another.

ISP's don't bother with Usenet squabbles. They really don't.

Joe Parsons

Yes they do, Joe.

That has never been my experience.

There are many Usenet service providers, for example, that have essentially NO
Terms of Service. Altopia is a good example of this. Teranews is another.

By and large, what I have observed is that--especially in unmoderated
newsgroups--ISPs don't have the time or inclination to deal with their users who
might be chronically nasty, or who post off-topic (or who chronically post
off-topic in a nasty manner).

I'm sure my generalization is unfair to a handful of ISPs who *do* pull the plug
on those who abuse newsgroups by posting off-topic arguments, but I haven't run
across them over the last dozen years.

I decry these kinds of posts, as I know you and many others do; but ultimately,
there has to be some kind of "gentleman's agreement" between the main combatants
that the behavior is inappropriate--and that it is literally destroying the
newsgroup.

There is absolutely nothing to be gained by people's posting these provocative,
emotionally charged and polarizing articles. And since, for the most part, the
people posting them seem to have some modicum of intelligence, I have to believe
they know exactly what they're doing it--but choose to indulge their destructive
whims out of pure selfishness.

They certainly are not doing it with an eye toward convincing anyone of
anything.

Joe Parsons

Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from wrecked.ot-boats.noah.
...as you were. )