On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 13:06:10 -0800, "jps" wrote:

[snip]

I have never complained about the "signal to noise ratio" in rec.boats.
It
would be hypocritical of me to do so, since I often post about things that
depart from the nominal topic of the newsgroup. What I *have* complained
about--obviously with no effect--is the consistently rancorous tone of
many of
these "discussions." If you identify yourself as "conservative," anyone
holding
a different view is somehow morally deficient, unpatriotic, irresponsible,
even
of questionable sexual orientation. If you consider yourself a "liberal,"
those
others are "right wing trash," warmongers, liars, exploiters, fascists and
worse.


Joe,

I'm sorry about the signal-to-noise ratio going off the charts

The problem, as I have been saying over and over, is not simply the "noise;" it
is the *kind* of noise that is driving people--people who are interested in
boating--away.

but there's a
reason.

Yes, there is. But, frankly, I don't believe that the reason you give below is
even close to correct.

I don't disagree that there are, in fact, "deep divisions" in our country and in
our society. There always have been. But the fact that I may hold a different
opinion from someone else here does not mean that I am compelled to a) seek
every opportunity to pontificate on my opinion or b) avail myself of every
opportunity to score a "point" against those I consider my adversaries. The
existence of an audience in a newsgroup does not constitute a bully pulpit for
anyone with a cause.

Think of a gathering at a public park. People have gotten together because of
some common interest--let's say they all like to fly model airplanes. One of
the members has just had a religious conversion. He gathers groups of people
together to preach to them. After a while, someone who objects to that person's
brand of religion argues with him. A few people take sides. Soon, everyone is
talking and arguing, louder and louder. Tempers flare--and if even if physical
combat doesn't ensue, the reason people gathered in the first place has been
supplanted by this public brawl.

After a while, everyone gathers up there stuff and leaves, a bad taste in their
mouths.

We're in a highly charged period of deep division in the country
and the it's precipitating exaggerated partisan politics. It started with
the 2000 election and, subsided for a while after 911. But the country is
heading in a direction that's causing more division than I've experienced
since the mid-sixties.

I, for one, can't help arguing the points. I'm really sorry we're losing
you as you've been a voice of reason. Those among us who are more extreme
in our views are likely to drive moderates out of the discussion no matter
the forum and that's a problem.

Chuck, you (plural) are doing more than "driving moderates out of the
discussion." You (plural) who have turned rec.boats into this kind of pointless
fracas have literally ruined a formerly thriving boating forum.

And as for "can't help arguing the points," I can understand that, when
individuals are provoked (as so many here are), it is natural to respond in
kind. The "air" in rec.boats is redolent with cyber-testosterone. Every guy in
these mêlées is out to make points. Period. Do you really think Harry Krause
is ever going to be able to get the nameless dentist to concede a point about
anything? Will jps and wally ever come to an agreement? Will you and Karen
Smith suddenly become fast friends? No. It's all dicksizing and posturing--at
the expense of the entire newsgroup.

Here's an article from the LA Times that talks about what's happening in the
country according to the Pew Research Center. I hope this improves before
it gets worse but I'm not hopefull. The injection of religious themes into
politics and public policy has served to polarize the country further.

Do you think there might be a possibility that people who want to discuss these
issues might want to go to appropriately dedicated newsgroups? That trying to
force people to listen to these political arguments is the exact equivalent of
newly converted evangelists who buttonhole people at social gatherings to preach
to them?

Survey Finds Americans Are Increasingly Divided

Republicans make gains as their differences with Democrats on key issues
grow more pronounced.

By Ronald Brownstein, Times Staff Writer


WASHINGTON - Across a range of domestic and foreign policy issues, the gap
between the views of Republican and Democratic partisans is now wider than

This reminds me of a time, years and years ago, when I was an Amway distributor.
Most people know that Amway relies not only on person-to-person selling, but on
recruiting others to sell products. The real money was in recruiting--in
"building an organization." I used to pounce on every opportunity at social
gatherings to maneuver conversations to Amway. It was crass behavior that,
happily, I outgrew. But I am seeing the exact equivalent in these threads. Not
to offend you, but you have provided an example of just that same behavior in
appending that article.

More later...I just can't resist.

Joe Parsons