On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 20:56:51 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

JohnH wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 11:35:46 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:07:30 GMT, "Paul" wrote:
The mean spirited post by the guy using the remailer should have been
ignored. It should have been left to die alone with no replies but instead
it turns into a hot thread. That speaks volumes.

Is it unpleasant enough to drive people away? Obviously it is.

It can only be stopped by those who post the OT. It can only be stopped if
they stop posting OT.

It's pretty simple.

================================================== =

Not quite that simple, the real key in my opinion is to stop replying
but that would require a consensus which is not likely to be reached
any time soon. It's a lot like society as a whole, certain behavior
is acceptable, other not. We set the standard by choosing what we
reply to, and how we do it. In an unmoderated group self control is
all there is.

My personal remedy for some off topic, offensive, anonymous post is to
delete it, and hope it stays that way. If the pattern continues there
are ways of zeroing in on the suspect. We've done that before with a
few individuals and usually when you start to smoke them out they just
go away never come back.



I suggest that any rightie who is really upset with me come with guns
ablazing to where I hang my hat:


7142 Ambassador Road
Baltimore, Maryland 21244-2754
(410) 265-8080

Harry, everyone knows where your boat is kept. They know the name. They also
know that lead sinkers make much less noise than lead bullets, but they still
make nice cracks in fiberglass.

If I were you, I would STFU with your requests for violence.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

You can always count on the righties to try to instigate a little of the
ultra-violence.
I sincerely hope you're not intimating that I'm instigating anything. Your mouth
is doing the instigating! I was simply posting a topic relating to boats,
specifically, your boat. You are the one with the "bring 'em on' attitude being
displayed. Cool it!


John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

I'm sorry about the signal-to-noise ratio going off the charts but there's a
reason. We're in a highly charged period of deep division in the country
and the it's precipitating exaggerated partisan politics. It started with
the 2000 election and, subsided for a while after 911. But the country is
heading in a direction that's causing more division than I've experienced
since the mid-sixties.

I, for one, can't help arguing the points. I'm really sorry we're losing
you as you've been a voice of reason. Those among us who are more extreme
in our views are likely to drive moderates out of the discussion no matter
the forum and that's a problem.

Here's an article from the LA Times that talks about what's happening in the
country according to the Pew Research Center. I hope this improves before
it gets worse but I'm not hopefull. The injection of religious themes into
politics and public policy has served to polarize the country further.



Survey Finds Americans Are Increasingly Divided

Republicans make gains as their differences with Democrats on key issues
grow more pronounced.

By Ronald Brownstein, Times Staff Writer


WASHINGTON - Across a range of domestic and foreign policy issues, the gap
between the views of Republican and Democratic partisans is now wider than
at any point in the last 16 years, a major new survey has found.

The survey, by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center for the People and the
Press, portrays a nation profoundly polarized between two political camps
that are virtually identical in size but inimical in their beliefs on
virtually all major questions.

The center, which began measuring public opinion in 1987, found in its new
poll that the disagreement between Republicans and Democrats was greater
than ever on topics such as national security, the social safety net, big
business and equal rights for minorities.

"The extraordinary spirit of national unity that followed the calamitous
events of Sept. 11, 2001, has dissolved amid rising polarization and anger,"
said Andrew Kohut, Pew's director.

Since the terrorist attacks, according to the new poll, the share of
Americans who consider themselves Republicans has increased to the point
that the GOP, for the first time since the party's takeover of Congress in
1994, has drawn even with Democrats in public support.

The poll also found voters split almost exactly in half on whether they
intend to support President Bush or a Democrat in the 2004 presidential
race - and dividing along the same lines of class, race, gender and
religious attitudes as in the razor-thin election of 2000.

"It is still the 50-50 nation," Kohut said.

The poll measured the views of 2,528 adults, an unusually large sample, from
July 14 through Aug. 5. The group polled another 1,515 adults from Oct. 15
through Oct. 19 to update opinions on Bush and the war in Iraq. It has a
margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points for the October survey,
and 2 percentage points for the questions posed in the summer.

The survey captures several long-term shifts in the currents of U.S.
politics. Among the key trends:

Polarized Views

Across a battery of 24 questions measuring political and policy attitudes,
the survey found that the average difference between Republican and
Democratic attitudes is about 50% larger than in the late 1980s.

On specific issues, 72% of Democrats now say government should do more to
help needy people even if that means a bigger federal budget deficit, while
39% of Republicans agree. That 33-point difference is the largest the poll
has recorded.

Likewise, while 69% of Republicans say the best way to ensure peace is
through military strength, 44% of Democrats agree. That 25-point gap is also
the largest the poll has recorded - and nearly triple the difference in
polls taken as recently as 1997.

The gap is also the widest it's been on the question of whether corporations
make too much profit: Nearly three-quarters of Democrats agree, compared
with just less than half of Republicans.

Looking solely at white voters, the poll found 55% of Republicans compared
with 34% of Democrats agreed that "we have gone too far in pushing equal
rights in this country" - that, too, is the largest gap the survey has
recorded.

On other policy choices, the poll reported that more than four-fifths of
Republicans believed preemptive war was often or sometimes justified,
compared with half of Democrats. Similarly, while 85% of Republicans
believed it was the right decision to invade Iraq, 54% of Democrats said it
was wrong.

On virtually all of these issues, independents typically take positions that
fall in between the attitudes expressed by partisans. But there is some
evidence in the survey that independents also are polarizing between those
who lean toward the Democrats and those closer to the GOP. For instance, on
both the peace-through-strength and government-aid-to-the-needy questions,
attitudes among voters who lean Democratic or Republican are virtually
indistinguishable from members of each party.

Within this overall pattern of polarization, the survey found that
Democratic voters moved markedly to the left since the Clinton
administration. The percentage of Democrats who said government should do
more to help the needy has jumped by nearly a fourth since 1999, while the
share who accepted the peace-through-strength argument has plummeted by more
than a fifth since 1997.

That movement, analysts say, may reflect both the waning influence of
Clinton, who offered a mostly centrist agenda, and the sharp Democratic
backlash against Bush.

Republican attitudes on these questions, although still predominantly
conservative, have changed less in recent years.

In their attitudes toward the political parties, Americans are increasingly
dividing along lines of values.

In 1987, Pew found about 7 in 10 Republican and Democratic voters expressed
strong religious beliefs in their answers to questions meant to measure such
attitudes. Today, the figures for Democrats are the same, while the share of
Republicans with strong religious beliefs has edged up near 80%.

Division in Values

The study found religious belief is now as strong a factor as income in
predicting which party voters will support. And like other recent studies,
the poll suggests that religious practice may be an even stronger predictor
of partisan behavior than religious belief. The survey found that one of the
sharpest divides in attitudes toward Bush's reelection followed the
frequency of church attendance.

Overall, the poll found voters split evenly, 43% to 43%, on whether they
would prefer Bush or an unnamed Democrat in 2004. But Bush led by 26
percentage points among voters who attended church at least once a week, and
among those who attended either weekly or a few times a month. Those who
attended church only once or twice a year gave the Democrat a narrow margin,
while those who attended rarely or never preferred the Democrat by 24
points.

That stark division tracked almost identically the pattern found by exit
polls in the 2000 race between Bush and Democrat Al Gore.

Growing Tolerance

The poll reported greater tolerance since 1987 on several questions
involving race and homosexuality. Although gaps still exist along party and
religious lines, the trend toward tolerance is significant among both
Democrats and Republicans, and the religiously devout and the secular.

For instance, the share of Americans who believe "it's all right for blacks
and whites to date" has jumped from 48% in 1987 to 76% now. The share who
say school boards should have the right to fire known homosexuals has
dropped from 52% in 1987 to 35% today, with the declines consistent across
lines of partisanship, income and religious belief. Divisions remain greater
on abortion, with half of Republicans saying they support stricter laws
against the practice, while 70% of Democrats oppose such efforts.

Partisan Balance

Combining all of its surveys since the Sept. 11 attacks, the Pew Center
found the two parties drawing almost exactly equal support from the public,
with 31% of adults calling themselves Democrats and 30% Republicans. (The
rest didn't identify with either side.)

That's an improvement for the GOP since the late 1990s, when Pew surveys
gave the Democrats a 6-percentage-point edge. Since World War II, polls by
various organizations have found Republicans even in partisan identification
with the Democrats only twice: toward the end of Ronald Reagan's presidency
in 1988 and immediately after the GOP congressional landslide in 1994.

Ominously for Democrats, Pew found gains for the GOP above the national
average in several swing states, including Iowa, Michigan, West Virginia,
Minnesota and Florida.


For what it's worth, I too am disheartened by all the political stuff
posted here. I'm sure there are political news groups more appropriate
for these posts. I'm fairly new to boating and enjoy the exchange of
info and experience and from time to time have ventured my 2 Cents
worth.

I find I'm visiting this group less & less for these reasons. What do
Reps., Dems, Iraq and George Bush et al, have to do with boating? I
challenge all the political hot heads to post in appropriate groups.

Americans may be divided, but I hoped it was regarding 2 strokes vs 4
strokes, inboards vs outboards and the like, on this group.

I regard political posters in the same light as telemarketers. They
are uninvited, unwelcome, a nuisance, generally despised and I didn't
want to hear from them in the first place.

Ahhhhh... I feel better now, nothing like a little vent.

Harry Krause wrote in message ...

I suggest that any rightie who is really upset with me come with guns
ablazing to where I hang my hat:


7142 Ambassador Road
Baltimore, Maryland 21244-2754
(410) 265-8080
================================================== ========

Sorry, hadn't realized you were under investigation by those guys.

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 09:16:47 -0500, Gene Kearns wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 21:20:29 -0500, JohnH
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 20:56:51 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

JohnH wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 11:35:46 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:07:30 GMT, "Paul" wrote:
The mean spirited post by the guy using the remailer should have been
ignored. It should have been left to die alone with no replies but instead
it turns into a hot thread. That speaks volumes.

Is it unpleasant enough to drive people away? Obviously it is.

It can only be stopped by those who post the OT. It can only be stopped if
they stop posting OT.

It's pretty simple.

================================================== =

Not quite that simple, the real key in my opinion is to stop replying
but that would require a consensus which is not likely to be reached
any time soon. It's a lot like society as a whole, certain behavior
is acceptable, other not. We set the standard by choosing what we
reply to, and how we do it. In an unmoderated group self control is
all there is.

My personal remedy for some off topic, offensive, anonymous post is to
delete it, and hope it stays that way. If the pattern continues there
are ways of zeroing in on the suspect. We've done that before with a
few individuals and usually when you start to smoke them out they just
go away never come back.



I suggest that any rightie who is really upset with me come with guns
ablazing to where I hang my hat:


7142 Ambassador Road
Baltimore, Maryland 21244-2754
(410) 265-8080

Harry, everyone knows where your boat is kept. They know the name. They also
know that lead sinkers make much less noise than lead bullets, but they still
make nice cracks in fiberglass.

If I were you, I would STFU with your requests for violence.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

You can always count on the righties to try to instigate a little of the
ultra-violence.
I sincerely hope you're not intimating that I'm instigating anything. Your mouth
is doing the instigating! I was simply posting a topic relating to boats,
specifically, your boat. You are the one with the "bring 'em on' attitude being
displayed. Cool it!


John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

John,

Harry has just about yanked your chain clean out..... he dropped the
address of the Baltimore office of the FBI on you.... not his address.

The address he posted is of no consequence. The location of his boat is of
consequence. His 'come and get me' posts, of late, could actually get him in
trouble. Some of the folks on the NG seem off the wall enough to take him up on
it.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

JohnH wrote:

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 09:16:47 -0500, Gene Kearns wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 21:20:29 -0500, JohnH
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 20:56:51 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

JohnH wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 11:35:46 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:07:30 GMT, "Paul" wrote:
The mean spirited post by the guy using the remailer should have been
ignored. It should have been left to die alone with no replies but instead
it turns into a hot thread. That speaks volumes.

Is it unpleasant enough to drive people away? Obviously it is.

It can only be stopped by those who post the OT. It can only be stopped if
they stop posting OT.

It's pretty simple.

================================================== =

Not quite that simple, the real key in my opinion is to stop replying
but that would require a consensus which is not likely to be reached
any time soon. It's a lot like society as a whole, certain behavior
is acceptable, other not. We set the standard by choosing what we
reply to, and how we do it. In an unmoderated group self control is
all there is.

My personal remedy for some off topic, offensive, anonymous post is to
delete it, and hope it stays that way. If the pattern continues there
are ways of zeroing in on the suspect. We've done that before with a
few individuals and usually when you start to smoke them out they just
go away never come back.



I suggest that any rightie who is really upset with me come with guns
ablazing to where I hang my hat:


7142 Ambassador Road
Baltimore, Maryland 21244-2754
(410) 265-8080

Harry, everyone knows where your boat is kept. They know the name. They also
know that lead sinkers make much less noise than lead bullets, but they still
make nice cracks in fiberglass.

If I were you, I would STFU with your requests for violence.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

You can always count on the righties to try to instigate a little of the
ultra-violence.
I sincerely hope you're not intimating that I'm instigating anything. Your mouth
is doing the instigating! I was simply posting a topic relating to boats,
specifically, your boat. You are the one with the "bring 'em on' attitude being
displayed. Cool it!


John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

John,

Harry has just about yanked your chain clean out..... he dropped the
address of the Baltimore office of the FBI on you.... not his address.

The address he posted is of no consequence. The location of his boat is of
consequence. His 'come and get me' posts, of late, could actually get him in
trouble. Some of the folks on the NG seem off the wall enough to take him up on
it.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD


*All* of the "folks" on this NG "off the wall" enough to do what you
suggest, and suggest is exactly what you are doing, are, interestingly
enough, right wingers. The righties are out of control, here and
elsewhere. Why aren't you slightly more moderate righties working to
rein in those on your side of the aisle who are clearly out of control?

Or would that be an exercise in responsibility, which, of course, is
what the right wants to avoid.

--
Email sent to is never read.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Why aren't you slightly more moderate righties working to rein in those
on your side of the aisle who are clearly out of control?

You mean, like you lefties do with the not-so-moderate guys on *your* side?
I mean lefties like this guy:


"STFU" wrote in message
news:Kgsrb.154970$e01.538931@attbi_s02...

NOYB wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Why aren't you slightly more moderate righties working to rein in those
on your side of the aisle who are clearly out of control?

You mean, like you lefties do with the not-so-moderate guys on *your* side?
I mean lefties like this guy:


"STFU" wrote in message
news:Kgsrb.154970$e01.538931@attbi_s02...



Oh, I think he is one of you, actually. But in any event, I've only read
a couple of his posts and he doesn't seem to be on the edge of violence,
as so many of you righties are.


--
Email sent to is never read.

Gene Kearns wrote:

*All* of the "folks" on this NG "off the wall" enough to do what you
suggest, and suggest is exactly what you are doing, are, interestingly
enough, right wingers. The righties are out of control, here and
elsewhere. Why aren't you slightly more moderate righties working to
rein in those on your side of the aisle who are clearly out of control?

Or would that be an exercise in responsibility, which, of course, is
what the right wants to avoid.

Having killed a lot of these threads and thus, not privy to the
vigilante aspects..... I'll not comment on that.

However, it seems that the two polarized sides (that can't get past
their fetish to boats) are pretty equally distributed. If not, this
ot foolishness would die out and go away by itself.

The fact that it hasn't leads me to the conclusion that both sides are
equal contributors to the problem.


I haven't done a count lately, but I suspect the vociferous righties
outnumber the vociferous lefties by at least two to one. But that isn't
where I was aiming my comment, as you noticed. The righties here provide
me with nothing more than an endless supply of giggles. I don't have the
slightest interest in visiting harm upon them. But a number of them over
the years have voiced their interest in visiting harm upon me, one way
or another, and several years ago, a couple of them tried to play games
with a suicide phone line my wife maintained at that time for some of
her more troubled patients. One of the righties got himself into serious
do-do for that little escapade of his. Another merely was visited by the
police. The first no longer posts here.




--
Email sent to is never read.

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 09:41:04 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

JohnH wrote:

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 09:16:47 -0500, Gene Kearns wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 21:20:29 -0500, JohnH
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 20:56:51 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

JohnH wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 11:35:46 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:07:30 GMT, "Paul" wrote:
The mean spirited post by the guy using the remailer should have been
ignored. It should have been left to die alone with no replies but instead
it turns into a hot thread. That speaks volumes.

Is it unpleasant enough to drive people away? Obviously it is.

It can only be stopped by those who post the OT. It can only be stopped if
they stop posting OT.

It's pretty simple.

================================================== =

Not quite that simple, the real key in my opinion is to stop replying
but that would require a consensus which is not likely to be reached
any time soon. It's a lot like society as a whole, certain behavior
is acceptable, other not. We set the standard by choosing what we
reply to, and how we do it. In an unmoderated group self control is
all there is.

My personal remedy for some off topic, offensive, anonymous post is to
delete it, and hope it stays that way. If the pattern continues there
are ways of zeroing in on the suspect. We've done that before with a
few individuals and usually when you start to smoke them out they just
go away never come back.



I suggest that any rightie who is really upset with me come with guns
ablazing to where I hang my hat:


7142 Ambassador Road
Baltimore, Maryland 21244-2754
(410) 265-8080

Harry, everyone knows where your boat is kept. They know the name. They also
know that lead sinkers make much less noise than lead bullets, but they still
make nice cracks in fiberglass.

If I were you, I would STFU with your requests for violence.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

You can always count on the righties to try to instigate a little of the
ultra-violence.
I sincerely hope you're not intimating that I'm instigating anything. Your mouth
is doing the instigating! I was simply posting a topic relating to boats,
specifically, your boat. You are the one with the "bring 'em on' attitude being
displayed. Cool it!


John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

John,

Harry has just about yanked your chain clean out..... he dropped the
address of the Baltimore office of the FBI on you.... not his address.

The address he posted is of no consequence. The location of his boat is of
consequence. His 'come and get me' posts, of late, could actually get him in
trouble. Some of the folks on the NG seem off the wall enough to take him up on
it.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD


*All* of the "folks" on this NG "off the wall" enough to do what you
suggest, and suggest is exactly what you are doing, are, interestingly
enough, right wingers. The righties are out of control, here and
elsewhere. Why aren't you slightly more moderate righties working to
rein in those on your side of the aisle who are clearly out of control?

Or would that be an exercise in responsibility, which, of course, is
what the right wants to avoid.

All you off the wall guys, get your asses under control! There, now do your
thing Harry.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 09:41:04 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

JohnH wrote:

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 09:16:47 -0500, Gene Kearns wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 21:20:29 -0500, JohnH
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 20:56:51 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

JohnH wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 11:35:46 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:07:30 GMT, "Paul" wrote:
The mean spirited post by the guy using the remailer should have been
ignored. It should have been left to die alone with no replies but instead
it turns into a hot thread. That speaks volumes.

Is it unpleasant enough to drive people away? Obviously it is.

It can only be stopped by those who post the OT. It can only be stopped if
they stop posting OT.

It's pretty simple.

================================================== =

Not quite that simple, the real key in my opinion is to stop replying
but that would require a consensus which is not likely to be reached
any time soon. It's a lot like society as a whole, certain behavior
is acceptable, other not. We set the standard by choosing what we
reply to, and how we do it. In an unmoderated group self control is
all there is.

My personal remedy for some off topic, offensive, anonymous post is to
delete it, and hope it stays that way. If the pattern continues there
are ways of zeroing in on the suspect. We've done that before with a
few individuals and usually when you start to smoke them out they just
go away never come back.



I suggest that any rightie who is really upset with me come with guns
ablazing to where I hang my hat:


7142 Ambassador Road
Baltimore, Maryland 21244-2754
(410) 265-8080

Harry, everyone knows where your boat is kept. They know the name. They also
know that lead sinkers make much less noise than lead bullets, but they still
make nice cracks in fiberglass.

If I were you, I would STFU with your requests for violence.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

You can always count on the righties to try to instigate a little of the
ultra-violence.
I sincerely hope you're not intimating that I'm instigating anything. Your mouth
is doing the instigating! I was simply posting a topic relating to boats,
specifically, your boat. You are the one with the "bring 'em on' attitude being
displayed. Cool it!


John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

John,

Harry has just about yanked your chain clean out..... he dropped the
address of the Baltimore office of the FBI on you.... not his address.

The address he posted is of no consequence. The location of his boat is of
consequence. His 'come and get me' posts, of late, could actually get him in
trouble. Some of the folks on the NG seem off the wall enough to take him up on
it.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD


*All* of the "folks" on this NG "off the wall" enough to do what you
suggest, and suggest is exactly what you are doing, are, interestingly
enough, right wingers. The righties are out of control, here and
elsewhere. Why aren't you slightly more moderate righties working to
rein in those on your side of the aisle who are clearly out of control?

Or would that be an exercise in responsibility, which, of course, is
what the right wants to avoid.

And don't accuse me of being a moderate right winger. I'm on the left of the
scale! I just don't like stupidity, which saying "come and get me" seems to be.
You, however, know best.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD