On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 13:06:10 -0800, "jps" wrote:

jps- you are an intelligent guy, and I would like to engage you
directly as to why you think it's OK to litter a boating newsgroup
with off-topic political posts, and to draw in irrelevant and ignorant
trolls.

Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from wrecked.ot-boats.noah.
....as you were. )

Joe Parsons wrote in message
But for now, I am...out of here.

Joe Parsons

Joe, keep in touch, you have my email address. I'll send you my real
address, hope to meet up in CA next time I'm there, buddy!

On 7 Nov 2003 00:22:24 -0600, noah wrote:

[snip]

But for now, I am...out of here.

Joe Parsons

Joe, on a personal level, you are an asset to this group.

Aside from the fact that I like your prose,

Thank you.

the group needs people
that care about "the group". Without advocates, this group could
easily become a total spam dump. It is happening already.

I don't see the problem as spam--that is quite easily dealt with, even without
filters. The problem is that the rec.boats has been essentially turned into a
venue for politically-flavored bickering--and not very good bickering at that.

If regs want to talk OT, then let's create a welcome forum for it,

It's a nice idea, but I don't think it's necessary. As I've said over and over
again, it's not OT chatter that has ruined the newsgroup.

not
burn down our own house because of it, or drown rec.boats in OT posts.

There is room for everyone, and every viewpoint, but only if there is
some basic cooperation and respect.

If you need a break, enjoy it. I hope that you'll come back with a
new energy and focus to help get this group back to "boating".

I am not leaving because I need a "break," Noah. I am leaving because this
newsgroup no longer has anything substantive to offer on the subject of
boats--and wading through this...marsh of doctrinaire nonsense is too unpleasant
to be worthwhile.

I'm going to comment on a couple of the other followups, as well.

Joe Parsons

On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 13:06:10 -0800, "jps" wrote:

[snip]

I have never complained about the "signal to noise ratio" in rec.boats.
It
would be hypocritical of me to do so, since I often post about things that
depart from the nominal topic of the newsgroup. What I *have* complained
about--obviously with no effect--is the consistently rancorous tone of
many of
these "discussions." If you identify yourself as "conservative," anyone
holding
a different view is somehow morally deficient, unpatriotic, irresponsible,
even
of questionable sexual orientation. If you consider yourself a "liberal,"
those
others are "right wing trash," warmongers, liars, exploiters, fascists and
worse.


Joe,

I'm sorry about the signal-to-noise ratio going off the charts

The problem, as I have been saying over and over, is not simply the "noise;" it
is the *kind* of noise that is driving people--people who are interested in
boating--away.

but there's a
reason.

Yes, there is. But, frankly, I don't believe that the reason you give below is
even close to correct.

I don't disagree that there are, in fact, "deep divisions" in our country and in
our society. There always have been. But the fact that I may hold a different
opinion from someone else here does not mean that I am compelled to a) seek
every opportunity to pontificate on my opinion or b) avail myself of every
opportunity to score a "point" against those I consider my adversaries. The
existence of an audience in a newsgroup does not constitute a bully pulpit for
anyone with a cause.

Think of a gathering at a public park. People have gotten together because of
some common interest--let's say they all like to fly model airplanes. One of
the members has just had a religious conversion. He gathers groups of people
together to preach to them. After a while, someone who objects to that person's
brand of religion argues with him. A few people take sides. Soon, everyone is
talking and arguing, louder and louder. Tempers flare--and if even if physical
combat doesn't ensue, the reason people gathered in the first place has been
supplanted by this public brawl.

After a while, everyone gathers up there stuff and leaves, a bad taste in their
mouths.

We're in a highly charged period of deep division in the country
and the it's precipitating exaggerated partisan politics. It started with
the 2000 election and, subsided for a while after 911. But the country is
heading in a direction that's causing more division than I've experienced
since the mid-sixties.

I, for one, can't help arguing the points. I'm really sorry we're losing
you as you've been a voice of reason. Those among us who are more extreme
in our views are likely to drive moderates out of the discussion no matter
the forum and that's a problem.

Chuck, you (plural) are doing more than "driving moderates out of the
discussion." You (plural) who have turned rec.boats into this kind of pointless
fracas have literally ruined a formerly thriving boating forum.

And as for "can't help arguing the points," I can understand that, when
individuals are provoked (as so many here are), it is natural to respond in
kind. The "air" in rec.boats is redolent with cyber-testosterone. Every guy in
these mêlées is out to make points. Period. Do you really think Harry Krause
is ever going to be able to get the nameless dentist to concede a point about
anything? Will jps and wally ever come to an agreement? Will you and Karen
Smith suddenly become fast friends? No. It's all dicksizing and posturing--at
the expense of the entire newsgroup.

Here's an article from the LA Times that talks about what's happening in the
country according to the Pew Research Center. I hope this improves before
it gets worse but I'm not hopefull. The injection of religious themes into
politics and public policy has served to polarize the country further.

Do you think there might be a possibility that people who want to discuss these
issues might want to go to appropriately dedicated newsgroups? That trying to
force people to listen to these political arguments is the exact equivalent of
newly converted evangelists who buttonhole people at social gatherings to preach
to them?

Survey Finds Americans Are Increasingly Divided

Republicans make gains as their differences with Democrats on key issues
grow more pronounced.

By Ronald Brownstein, Times Staff Writer


WASHINGTON - Across a range of domestic and foreign policy issues, the gap
between the views of Republican and Democratic partisans is now wider than

This reminds me of a time, years and years ago, when I was an Amway distributor.
Most people know that Amway relies not only on person-to-person selling, but on
recruiting others to sell products. The real money was in recruiting--in
"building an organization." I used to pounce on every opportunity at social
gatherings to maneuver conversations to Amway. It was crass behavior that,
happily, I outgrew. But I am seeing the exact equivalent in these threads. Not
to offend you, but you have provided an example of just that same behavior in
appending that article.

More later...I just can't resist.

Joe Parsons

On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 15:39:33 -0600, "Del Cecchi" wrote:

"jps" wrote in message
...
"Joe Parsons" wrote in message
...
snip it all

The truth is that some idiots who can't control themselves and are so
arrogant that they feel that they can do what they damn well please wherever
and whenever they want to attempt to further some dubious objective are so
seriously polluting the newsgroup that the rewards of attempting to read it
are approaching zero.

It used to just be harry and skipper, and a few entries to the kill file
alleviated that. Now it is a whole flock of idiots who have no self control
or sense of responsibility. It's like spam, no matter how one filters the
garbage swamps one.

Agreed.

Is there some reason that the rest of us have to be subjected to this crap?

I think you have succinctly articulated the attitude of many here--although I'm
guessing many of them have simply given up and gone away.

Why don't you off topic posers take your stuff to DU or FR or talk.politics
or alt.flame or anywhere but here?

Ah! Because they'd feel they had to concede defeat somehow--who's going to
"drop his weapon" first? Alternatively, they're afraid of losing their
audience.

Joe Parsons

On 7 Nov 2003 01:32:44 -0600, noah wrote:

On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 13:06:10 -0800, "jps" wrote:

jps- you are an intelligent guy, and I would like to engage you
directly as to why you think it's OK to litter a boating newsgroup
with off-topic political posts, and to draw in irrelevant and ignorant
trolls.

I'd be interested in hearing that, too.

Joe Parsons


Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from wrecked.ot-boats.noah.
...as you were. )

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:07:30 GMT, "Paul" wrote:
The mean spirited post by the guy using the remailer should have been
ignored. It should have been left to die alone with no replies but instead
it turns into a hot thread. That speaks volumes.

Is it unpleasant enough to drive people away? Obviously it is.

It can only be stopped by those who post the OT. It can only be stopped if
they stop posting OT.

It's pretty simple.

================================================== =

Not quite that simple, the real key in my opinion is to stop replying
but that would require a consensus which is not likely to be reached
any time soon. It's a lot like society as a whole, certain behavior
is acceptable, other not. We set the standard by choosing what we
reply to, and how we do it. In an unmoderated group self control is
all there is.

My personal remedy for some off topic, offensive, anonymous post is to
delete it, and hope it stays that way. If the pattern continues there
are ways of zeroing in on the suspect. We've done that before with a
few individuals and usually when you start to smoke them out they just
go away never come back.

Wayne.B wrote:

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:07:30 GMT, "Paul" wrote:
The mean spirited post by the guy using the remailer should have been
ignored. It should have been left to die alone with no replies but instead
it turns into a hot thread. That speaks volumes.

Is it unpleasant enough to drive people away? Obviously it is.

It can only be stopped by those who post the OT. It can only be stopped if
they stop posting OT.

It's pretty simple.

================================================== =

Not quite that simple, the real key in my opinion is to stop replying
but that would require a consensus which is not likely to be reached
any time soon. It's a lot like society as a whole, certain behavior
is acceptable, other not. We set the standard by choosing what we
reply to, and how we do it. In an unmoderated group self control is
all there is.

My personal remedy for some off topic, offensive, anonymous post is to
delete it, and hope it stays that way. If the pattern continues there
are ways of zeroing in on the suspect. We've done that before with a
few individuals and usually when you start to smoke them out they just
go away never come back.



I suggest that any rightie who is really upset with me come with guns
ablazing to where I hang my hat:


7142 Ambassador Road
Baltimore, Maryland 21244-2754
(410) 265-8080


--
Email sent to is never read.

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 11:35:46 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:07:30 GMT, "Paul" wrote:
The mean spirited post by the guy using the remailer should have been
ignored. It should have been left to die alone with no replies but instead
it turns into a hot thread. That speaks volumes.

Is it unpleasant enough to drive people away? Obviously it is.

It can only be stopped by those who post the OT. It can only be stopped if
they stop posting OT.

It's pretty simple.

================================================== =

Not quite that simple, the real key in my opinion is to stop replying
but that would require a consensus which is not likely to be reached
any time soon. It's a lot like society as a whole, certain behavior
is acceptable, other not. We set the standard by choosing what we
reply to, and how we do it. In an unmoderated group self control is
all there is.

My personal remedy for some off topic, offensive, anonymous post is to
delete it, and hope it stays that way. If the pattern continues there
are ways of zeroing in on the suspect. We've done that before with a
few individuals and usually when you start to smoke them out they just
go away never come back.



I suggest that any rightie who is really upset with me come with guns
ablazing to where I hang my hat:


7142 Ambassador Road
Baltimore, Maryland 21244-2754
(410) 265-8080

Harry, everyone knows where your boat is kept. They know the name. They also
know that lead sinkers make much less noise than lead bullets, but they still
make nice cracks in fiberglass.

If I were you, I would STFU with your requests for violence.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

JohnH wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 11:35:46 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:07:30 GMT, "Paul" wrote:
The mean spirited post by the guy using the remailer should have been
ignored. It should have been left to die alone with no replies but instead
it turns into a hot thread. That speaks volumes.

Is it unpleasant enough to drive people away? Obviously it is.

It can only be stopped by those who post the OT. It can only be stopped if
they stop posting OT.

It's pretty simple.

================================================== =

Not quite that simple, the real key in my opinion is to stop replying
but that would require a consensus which is not likely to be reached
any time soon. It's a lot like society as a whole, certain behavior
is acceptable, other not. We set the standard by choosing what we
reply to, and how we do it. In an unmoderated group self control is
all there is.

My personal remedy for some off topic, offensive, anonymous post is to
delete it, and hope it stays that way. If the pattern continues there
are ways of zeroing in on the suspect. We've done that before with a
few individuals and usually when you start to smoke them out they just
go away never come back.



I suggest that any rightie who is really upset with me come with guns
ablazing to where I hang my hat:


7142 Ambassador Road
Baltimore, Maryland 21244-2754
(410) 265-8080

Harry, everyone knows where your boat is kept. They know the name. They also
know that lead sinkers make much less noise than lead bullets, but they still
make nice cracks in fiberglass.

If I were you, I would STFU with your requests for violence.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

You can always count on the righties to try to instigate a little of the
ultra-violence.

--
Email sent to is never read.