On 3/27/2020 7:35 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite
- show quoted text -
Take a chill pill. Or maybe you've already taken too many?

First of all, it's not like GM or Ford or Tesla has to start from
scratch. The POTUS under the Defense Production Act can order
the design drawings, manufacturing procedures, bills of material
with sources from any current manufacturer to be given to GM,
Ford or Tesla. What the auto manufacturers bring to the table
is manufacturing capacity.

Second, I am surprised to see you dumping on the Donald in this
case. It was GM (big business, remember?) who was trying to
extort and take advantage of a national crisis. “
- show quoted text -

I’m surprised that someone like Toyota or Honda hasn’t already put them into production. Or the people who make CPAC machines for that matter



Toyota or Honda could probably do it but I am not sure they fall under
the Defense Production Act. Maybe the US plants do.

The key isn't a need to re-invent the wheel. The key
is manufacturing capacity and space to do it, something the auto
manufacturers have.

Issue here is that GM, Ford and Tesla offered without being
asked or directed to by invoking the act. GM apparently
reneged somewhat, lowering how many they could build
and upping the price.

Remains to be seen what Ford and Tesla does.



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On 3/27/20 7:56 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/27/2020 7:35 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite
- show quoted text -
Take a chill pill.Â* Or maybe you've already taken too many?

First of all, it's not like GM or Ford or Tesla has to start from
scratch. The POTUS under the Defense Production Act can order
the design drawings, manufacturing procedures, bills of material
with sources from any current manufacturer to be given to GM,
Ford or Tesla.Â* What the auto manufacturers bring to the table
is manufacturing capacity.

Second, I am surprised to see you dumping on the Donald in this
case.Â* It was GM (big business, remember?)Â* who was trying to
extort and take advantage of a national crisis. “
- show quoted text -

I’m surprised that someone like Toyota or Honda hasn’t already put
them into production.Â* Or the people who make CPAC machines for that
matter



Toyota or Honda could probably do it but I am not sure they fall under
the Defense Production Act.Â* Maybe the US plants do.

The key isn't a need to re-invent the wheel.Â* The key
is manufacturing capacity and space to do it,Â* something the auto
manufacturers have.

Issue here is that GM, Ford and Tesla offered without being
asked or directed to by invoking the act.Â* GM apparently
reneged somewhat, lowering how many they could build
and upping the price.

Remains to be seen what Ford and Tesla does.



The reality is, the Trump Administration is not being transparent on
this issue, and therefore we don't know what transpired between Trump
and GM. Just today, he apparently told Pence not to call the governors
of at least two states regarding the virus because they didn't
"appreciate" him.

On Fri, 27 Mar 2020 19:56:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/27/2020 7:35 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite
- show quoted text -
Take a chill pill. Or maybe you've already taken too many?

First of all, it's not like GM or Ford or Tesla has to start from
scratch. The POTUS under the Defense Production Act can order
the design drawings, manufacturing procedures, bills of material
with sources from any current manufacturer to be given to GM,
Ford or Tesla. What the auto manufacturers bring to the table
is manufacturing capacity.

Second, I am surprised to see you dumping on the Donald in this
case. It was GM (big business, remember?) who was trying to
extort and take advantage of a national crisis. “
- show quoted text -

I’m surprised that someone like Toyota or Honda hasn’t already put them into production. Or the people who make CPAC machines for that matter



Toyota or Honda could probably do it but I am not sure they fall under
the Defense Production Act. Maybe the US plants do.

The key isn't a need to re-invent the wheel. The key
is manufacturing capacity and space to do it, something the auto
manufacturers have.


You may not need to reinvent the wheel but you can certainly make
stamped steel wheels and not those gold plated things that cost
$30,000 and do far more than you really need. I would simply fall back
to the difference between a M1928 (Al Capone) Thompson SMG and the
stamped steel M3 Grease Gun. Certainly the Thompson is prettier and
has more features but when you just want to throw lead at the bad guy,
an M3 is all you need.
All we are trying to do is help someone get air in their lungs and
back out. In reality that is all a CPAP machine is too. Tim is right.
Similar function and technology.

On Fri, 27 Mar 2020 19:07:11 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

Hospital ventilators are not simple devices.

No because medical equipment salesmen sell them. The basic operation
is pretty simple tho. You are just replicating a fireman squeezing a
bag. Is the $100 one the greatest thing ever, probably not but if it
keeps the person moving air through their lungs, that is all you need.

I would rather have a $100 home made ventilator that works than just
sit there wheezing, wishing a $30,000 one was available.

On Fri, 27 Mar 2020 18:19:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



Apparently, after promising to
tool up to produce ventilators, GM started
demanding excessive up front money, jacking
the price per ventilator up and
producing less than was
originally promised.

Trump just punched back, invoking the
Defense Production Act to require General Motors
to produce the ventilators, like it or not.


That's it.

I am trading my GM Canyon in on a Ford.

There was a guy from a ventilator company on NBC tonight saying they
have a deal with GM so let's see how that goes. These things still
take time. It took almost a year before the Guide Lamp division could
tool up to make M3 submachine guns in WWII but once they did, they
were rolling out the door by the thousands. I just wonder what we are
going to do with a half million ventilators when this is all over.

I am still fascinated with the bare bones designs after looking at the
MIT thing. I see a few things they could improve right away. It is
clear these boys were working with what they had in the robotics lab
and the actuator is far too complicated, perhaps too fragile too for
something that has to go three quarters of a million cycles or more a
month. I think some kind of industrial bellows, a gear rack and a
stepper motor might be more appropriate and cheaper. I doubt you even
need a PIC. Maybe something as simple as a dual 556 timer, a D
flipflop to make pretty square waves and a stepper motor driver chip.
Timer one is the stepper motor drive and timer two sets up the timing
and length of the stroke, in conjunction with the motor speed. A
couple of opto sensors to tell you where the rack is and a pressure
regulator. The brain could be a couple of garden variety CMOS gates
just determine which way to go based on where the opto sensors says it
is. I doubt I am much over $20 in parts plus the price of the can, a
filter and the mask hose assembly.
The reality is once someone designs the can and the mounting points
for the hardware in a pattern that any metal fab shop can bang out,
this is easily that $100 ventilator and it could be built in a light
industrial bay anywhere.
That is just me thinking out loud. I have every confidence American
ingenuity will solve these problems pretty fast.
BTW, no gloves, use a dog poop bag if you are just handling random
objects that might be contaminated.
(an idea from the military Facebook group)