On 10/27/2017 7:07 AM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 18:13:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/26/2017 4:14 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:20:37 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/26/2017 2:12 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/26/17 2:07 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:57:10 -0400, John H
wrote:

Here are the '10 Least Reliable Cars' from the latest CR reliability
survey. The least of the least
is at the bottom.

Chevrolet Camaro
Mercedes-Benz GLC
Jaguar F-Pace
GMC Acadia
Fiat 500
Ford Focus
Ford Fiesta
Volvo XC90
Cadillac Escalade
Tesla Model X

All of these got 'one out of five' in the predicted reliability
rating, based on the results of the
owner surveys.

Maybe folks are a bit more honest than we might think when it comes
to rating their own cars.

I wonder if some of this is just that a guy who paid $70-100k for a
Cadillac or a Jag is a little less tolerant of a little misalignment
of the door or a squeak behind the dash than a guy with a $20k Versa


Why should the buyer of a new inexpensive car be tolerant of a poorly
assembled vehicle?


Surprised the list of the least reliable cars doesn't include Jeep
vehicles.

Me too. Based on what I've read the current crop of Jeeps have a
terrible reputation for reliability problems and being outdated in
design in general. My daughter can't wait until her lease is up on a
Jeep Liberty she has. I've driven it. It's terrible. Transmission
shudders at slow speeds but she was told it's "normal". My brother also
bought a Jeep Compass a couple of months ago, replacing a 12 year old,
rotted out Dodge Ram pickup. His shutters also at slow speeds, so
perhaps it *is* normal. He's already shopping for a replacement for it

Not much of a sampling but consistent with many of the on-line reviews.

I had problems with my 72 AMC Jeep too but I beat the **** out of it.



Followup: I received a call from my daughter an hour ago asking if I
could give her a ride to her car dealership. She had dropped her Jeep
off for an inspection sticker this morning. She also had a couple of
lights out ... parking light and a running light and they all have to
work to pass inspection.

She didn't hear from the dealership all day and finally called them to
see if it was ready. She was transferred to the service manager who
told her, "There's a problem. The problem with the lights is not the
bulbs or LEDs. There's a problem in the wiring of the vehicle and we
haven't been able to trace it so far." So, they gave her a loaner .. a
new Dodge Charger.

About two months ago her Jeep suddenly started by itself in her driveway
at about 1 am. The lights turned on and the horn started beeping. My
son-in-law heard it, went out and somehow shut it off. Probably related
to the wiring problem.

I would advise anyone not to buy a Jeep. Amen.

The latest CR review of mid-size SUVs puts the Jeep Wrangler at the bottom with a score of 29. The
high score in this category is the Toyota Highlander with an 85. The Dodge Journey and Jeep Cherokee
are also in the bottom four, with scores of 41 and 59 respectively. The Ford Explorer tied with the
Jeep Cherokee.



What cracks me up are some reviews that give scores for different
vehicles made by the same manufacturer but under different brand names.
For example, a GMC 1500 might score high and a Chevy Silverado 1500
might score low (or visa-versa) even though they are fundamentally the
same truck, same engine, same transmission, etc.

On Thursday, October 26, 2017 at 2:12:54 PM UTC-4, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/26/17 2:07 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:57:10 -0400, John H
wrote:

Here are the '10 Least Reliable Cars' from the latest CR reliability survey. The least of the least
is at the bottom.

Chevrolet Camaro
Mercedes-Benz GLC
Jaguar F-Pace
GMC Acadia
Fiat 500
Ford Focus
Ford Fiesta
Volvo XC90
Cadillac Escalade
Tesla Model X

All of these got 'one out of five' in the predicted reliability rating, based on the results of the
owner surveys.

Maybe folks are a bit more honest than we might think when it comes to rating their own cars.

I wonder if some of this is just that a guy who paid $70-100k for a
Cadillac or a Jag is a little less tolerant of a little misalignment
of the door or a squeak behind the dash than a guy with a $20k Versa


Why should the buyer of a new inexpensive car be tolerant of a poorly
assembled vehicle?

Surprised the list of the least reliable cars doesn't include Jeep
vehicles.

Well, if those folks took Consumer Reports seriously, they wouldn't be driving Jeeps. I'm guessing most Jeep owners don't take Consumer Reports and therefore aren't asked to take the surveys. Or, they are so brand loyal, which CR acknowledges in its ratings, that they pretend to have had no problems..

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 07:28:39 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/27/2017 7:07 AM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 18:13:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/26/2017 4:14 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:20:37 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/26/2017 2:12 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/26/17 2:07 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:57:10 -0400, John H
wrote:

Here are the '10 Least Reliable Cars' from the latest CR reliability
survey. The least of the least
is at the bottom.

Chevrolet Camaro
Mercedes-Benz GLC
Jaguar F-Pace
GMC Acadia
Fiat 500
Ford Focus
Ford Fiesta
Volvo XC90
Cadillac Escalade
Tesla Model X

All of these got 'one out of five' in the predicted reliability
rating, based on the results of the
owner surveys.

Maybe folks are a bit more honest than we might think when it comes
to rating their own cars.

I wonder if some of this is just that a guy who paid $70-100k for a
Cadillac or a Jag is a little less tolerant of a little misalignment
of the door or a squeak behind the dash than a guy with a $20k Versa


Why should the buyer of a new inexpensive car be tolerant of a poorly
assembled vehicle?


Surprised the list of the least reliable cars doesn't include Jeep
vehicles.

Me too. Based on what I've read the current crop of Jeeps have a
terrible reputation for reliability problems and being outdated in
design in general. My daughter can't wait until her lease is up on a
Jeep Liberty she has. I've driven it. It's terrible. Transmission
shudders at slow speeds but she was told it's "normal". My brother also
bought a Jeep Compass a couple of months ago, replacing a 12 year old,
rotted out Dodge Ram pickup. His shutters also at slow speeds, so
perhaps it *is* normal. He's already shopping for a replacement for it

Not much of a sampling but consistent with many of the on-line reviews.

I had problems with my 72 AMC Jeep too but I beat the **** out of it.



Followup: I received a call from my daughter an hour ago asking if I
could give her a ride to her car dealership. She had dropped her Jeep
off for an inspection sticker this morning. She also had a couple of
lights out ... parking light and a running light and they all have to
work to pass inspection.

She didn't hear from the dealership all day and finally called them to
see if it was ready. She was transferred to the service manager who
told her, "There's a problem. The problem with the lights is not the
bulbs or LEDs. There's a problem in the wiring of the vehicle and we
haven't been able to trace it so far." So, they gave her a loaner .. a
new Dodge Charger.

About two months ago her Jeep suddenly started by itself in her driveway
at about 1 am. The lights turned on and the horn started beeping. My
son-in-law heard it, went out and somehow shut it off. Probably related
to the wiring problem.

I would advise anyone not to buy a Jeep. Amen.

The latest CR review of mid-size SUVs puts the Jeep Wrangler at the bottom with a score of 29. The
high score in this category is the Toyota Highlander with an 85. The Dodge Journey and Jeep Cherokee
are also in the bottom four, with scores of 41 and 59 respectively. The Ford Explorer tied with the
Jeep Cherokee.



What cracks me up are some reviews that give scores for different
vehicles made by the same manufacturer but under different brand names.
For example, a GMC 1500 might score high and a Chevy Silverado 1500
might score low (or visa-versa) even though they are fundamentally the
same truck, same engine, same transmission, etc.


CR lists those two individually in the ratings, but they have identical ratings. They are listed
individually so one can input make, model, and year for whichever they're interested and get a
result.

Wrote in message:
On 27 Oct 2017 03:01:19 GMT, Keyser Soze wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 16:32:06 -0400, John H
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 16:12:37 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:17:46 -0400, John H
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:07:10 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:57:10 -0400, John H
wrote:

Here are the '10 Least Reliable Cars' from the latest CR reliability
survey. The least of the least
is at the bottom.

Chevrolet Camaro
Mercedes-Benz GLC
Jaguar F-Pace
GMC Acadia
Fiat 500
Ford Focus
Ford Fiesta
Volvo XC90
Cadillac Escalade
Tesla Model X

All of these got 'one out of five' in the predicted reliability
rating, based on the results of the
owner surveys.

Maybe folks are a bit more honest than we might think when it comes
to rating their own cars.

I wonder if some of this is just that a guy who paid $70-100k for a
Cadillac or a Jag is a little less tolerant of a little misalignment
of the door or a squeak behind the dash than a guy with a $20k Versa

Could well be. But if there are more misalignments or squeaks in the
Cadillac or Jag then the
various Lexus' then the ratings are doing their job.

The CR survey covers about 25 different 'topics' in the auto section,
like sound system, navigation,
engine electronics, brakes, transmission, etc. Once a topic is
identified, further questions are
asked if the topic was a problem area. I wouldn't think may folks
would whine about their
transmission if their problem was a squeak in the dash.

The principle is still there tho. If I have a new Lincoln that is
shifting a little rough, I am complaining. If it is a Yugo, I might
just believe that is how they work.
I do agree Lexus (a premium Toyota) is a well built car but it was the
Japs who taught Detroit about quality. In the 70s and 80s we were
talking about how well Hondas were built and the UAW was still making
jokes about leaving coke bottles in the door.
The only one that surprised me was the Benz. I wonder where the GLC
they tested was made? Finland? Those may be left over commies from the
Trebant factory ;-)

The thing for you and Luddite to do is never look at Consumer Reports.

The reality is that for most people "quality" is really pretty far
down on the list of what they look into when buying a car.
They look at price, styling, performance, maybe gas mileage and the
doodads available. Then there is the culture. Ford people buy Fords,
Toyota people buy Toyotas etc.


How would you know that? Results of a poll?

Just watching the cars turn over in people's driveways and talking to
them.
There is some logic to it since the culture of different cars is
different. If you drive Fords, a new one is similar to your old one in
placement and operation of the controls. If you get into a Honda, you
will have a hard time turning on the wipers without getting the book
out. That really becomes apparent when you start playing with the
smart dash.
We rent a lot of cars and using them is always an adventure.


My feelings on renting cars is the same as renting bedrooms.
--
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On 10/27/2017 7:51 AM, John H wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 07:28:39 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/27/2017 7:07 AM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 18:13:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/26/2017 4:14 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:20:37 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/26/2017 2:12 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/26/17 2:07 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:57:10 -0400, John H
wrote:

Here are the '10 Least Reliable Cars' from the latest CR reliability
survey. The least of the least
is at the bottom.

Chevrolet Camaro
Mercedes-Benz GLC
Jaguar F-Pace
GMC Acadia
Fiat 500
Ford Focus
Ford Fiesta
Volvo XC90
Cadillac Escalade
Tesla Model X

All of these got 'one out of five' in the predicted reliability
rating, based on the results of the
owner surveys.

Maybe folks are a bit more honest than we might think when it comes
to rating their own cars.

I wonder if some of this is just that a guy who paid $70-100k for a
Cadillac or a Jag is a little less tolerant of a little misalignment
of the door or a squeak behind the dash than a guy with a $20k Versa


Why should the buyer of a new inexpensive car be tolerant of a poorly
assembled vehicle?


Surprised the list of the least reliable cars doesn't include Jeep
vehicles.

Me too. Based on what I've read the current crop of Jeeps have a
terrible reputation for reliability problems and being outdated in
design in general. My daughter can't wait until her lease is up on a
Jeep Liberty she has. I've driven it. It's terrible. Transmission
shudders at slow speeds but she was told it's "normal". My brother also
bought a Jeep Compass a couple of months ago, replacing a 12 year old,
rotted out Dodge Ram pickup. His shutters also at slow speeds, so
perhaps it *is* normal. He's already shopping for a replacement for it

Not much of a sampling but consistent with many of the on-line reviews.

I had problems with my 72 AMC Jeep too but I beat the **** out of it.



Followup: I received a call from my daughter an hour ago asking if I
could give her a ride to her car dealership. She had dropped her Jeep
off for an inspection sticker this morning. She also had a couple of
lights out ... parking light and a running light and they all have to
work to pass inspection.

She didn't hear from the dealership all day and finally called them to
see if it was ready. She was transferred to the service manager who
told her, "There's a problem. The problem with the lights is not the
bulbs or LEDs. There's a problem in the wiring of the vehicle and we
haven't been able to trace it so far." So, they gave her a loaner .. a
new Dodge Charger.

About two months ago her Jeep suddenly started by itself in her driveway
at about 1 am. The lights turned on and the horn started beeping. My
son-in-law heard it, went out and somehow shut it off. Probably related
to the wiring problem.

I would advise anyone not to buy a Jeep. Amen.

The latest CR review of mid-size SUVs puts the Jeep Wrangler at the bottom with a score of 29. The
high score in this category is the Toyota Highlander with an 85. The Dodge Journey and Jeep Cherokee
are also in the bottom four, with scores of 41 and 59 respectively. The Ford Explorer tied with the
Jeep Cherokee.



What cracks me up are some reviews that give scores for different
vehicles made by the same manufacturer but under different brand names.
For example, a GMC 1500 might score high and a Chevy Silverado 1500
might score low (or visa-versa) even though they are fundamentally the
same truck, same engine, same transmission, etc.


CR lists those two individually in the ratings, but they have identical ratings. They are listed
individually so one can input make, model, and year for whichever they're interested and get a
result.


Sounds like they do a better job. I wasn't referring to CR reviews or
scores. Just stuff I occasionally come across on the Internet.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 06:12:56 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 16:54:14 -0400, wrote:

The reality is that for most people "quality" is really pretty far
down on the list of what they look into when buying a car.
They look at price, styling, performance, maybe gas mileage and the
doodads available. Then there is the culture. Ford people buy Fords,
Toyota people buy Toyotas etc.



My wife bought a Toyota for herself because after 15 years with a Toyota
4-Runner, our only expenditures on the latter were for regular service.
We gave the 4Runner to a relative when it had more than 200,000 miles on
it, and it is still going strong. I bought a Toyota Tacoma truck last
year for the same reason...Toyotas have great reputations for
reliability, which is a synonym for "quality."

A guy down the street and a relative in Florida have Audis, and both
owners say the same thing in their own words...too complicated,
over-engineered, very expensive to fix even the simplest failures. But
they are "stylish" cars.

Thanks for confirming what I said ... after your normal negative
comments

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 07:28:39 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/27/2017 7:07 AM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 18:13:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/26/2017 4:14 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:20:37 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/26/2017 2:12 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/26/17 2:07 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:57:10 -0400, John H
wrote:

Here are the '10 Least Reliable Cars' from the latest CR reliability
survey. The least of the least
is at the bottom.

Chevrolet Camaro
Mercedes-Benz GLC
Jaguar F-Pace
GMC Acadia
Fiat 500
Ford Focus
Ford Fiesta
Volvo XC90
Cadillac Escalade
Tesla Model X

All of these got 'one out of five' in the predicted reliability
rating, based on the results of the
owner surveys.

Maybe folks are a bit more honest than we might think when it comes
to rating their own cars.

I wonder if some of this is just that a guy who paid $70-100k for a
Cadillac or a Jag is a little less tolerant of a little misalignment
of the door or a squeak behind the dash than a guy with a $20k Versa


Why should the buyer of a new inexpensive car be tolerant of a poorly
assembled vehicle?


Surprised the list of the least reliable cars doesn't include Jeep
vehicles.

Me too. Based on what I've read the current crop of Jeeps have a
terrible reputation for reliability problems and being outdated in
design in general. My daughter can't wait until her lease is up on a
Jeep Liberty she has. I've driven it. It's terrible. Transmission
shudders at slow speeds but she was told it's "normal". My brother also
bought a Jeep Compass a couple of months ago, replacing a 12 year old,
rotted out Dodge Ram pickup. His shutters also at slow speeds, so
perhaps it *is* normal. He's already shopping for a replacement for it

Not much of a sampling but consistent with many of the on-line reviews.

I had problems with my 72 AMC Jeep too but I beat the **** out of it.



Followup: I received a call from my daughter an hour ago asking if I
could give her a ride to her car dealership. She had dropped her Jeep
off for an inspection sticker this morning. She also had a couple of
lights out ... parking light and a running light and they all have to
work to pass inspection.

She didn't hear from the dealership all day and finally called them to
see if it was ready. She was transferred to the service manager who
told her, "There's a problem. The problem with the lights is not the
bulbs or LEDs. There's a problem in the wiring of the vehicle and we
haven't been able to trace it so far." So, they gave her a loaner .. a
new Dodge Charger.

About two months ago her Jeep suddenly started by itself in her driveway
at about 1 am. The lights turned on and the horn started beeping. My
son-in-law heard it, went out and somehow shut it off. Probably related
to the wiring problem.

I would advise anyone not to buy a Jeep. Amen.

The latest CR review of mid-size SUVs puts the Jeep Wrangler at the bottom with a score of 29. The
high score in this category is the Toyota Highlander with an 85. The Dodge Journey and Jeep Cherokee
are also in the bottom four, with scores of 41 and 59 respectively. The Ford Explorer tied with the
Jeep Cherokee.



What cracks me up are some reviews that give scores for different
vehicles made by the same manufacturer but under different brand names.
For example, a GMC 1500 might score high and a Chevy Silverado 1500
might score low (or visa-versa) even though they are fundamentally the
same truck, same engine, same transmission, etc.


That sounds more like a personality profile of the responders than a
review of the truck then.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:32:58 -0400 (EDT), justan wrote:

We rent a lot of cars and using them is always an adventure.


My feelings on renting cars is the same as renting bedrooms.

When we are renting a car, we are usually renting a bedroom too. (also
an airplane seat).

On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 10:38:05 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 06:12:56 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 16:54:14 -0400, wrote:

The reality is that for most people "quality" is really pretty far
down on the list of what they look into when buying a car.
They look at price, styling, performance, maybe gas mileage and the
doodads available. Then there is the culture. Ford people buy Fords,
Toyota people buy Toyotas etc.



My wife bought a Toyota for herself because after 15 years with a Toyota
4-Runner, our only expenditures on the latter were for regular service.
We gave the 4Runner to a relative when it had more than 200,000 miles on
it, and it is still going strong. I bought a Toyota Tacoma truck last
year for the same reason...Toyotas have great reputations for
reliability, which is a synonym for "quality."

A guy down the street and a relative in Florida have Audis, and both
owners say the same thing in their own words...too complicated,
over-engineered, very expensive to fix even the simplest failures. But
they are "stylish" cars.

Thanks for confirming what I said ... after your normal negative
comments

Except that it's not completely true. The Audi's of old were problematic, but in the last decade they have climbed to the top of the European ladder of quality. My 2013 has needed exactly one repair... a sticking fuel door latch. Done under warranty.

Audi interiors are considered the best in the business for materials, fit and finish, and ergonomics. Ride and handling dynamics are top notch. The Quattro system is world class. You have to pay to play.

But you're right... some people don't do their homework and look at the cost of ownership. They buy on looks and prestige. Then when they find themselves in over their head they whine and complain. You have to wonder if they even took a test drive and bothered to look at the sticker.

Toyota and Honda builds good, reliable transportation. I just wish they weren't so boring to drive.

Wrote in message:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:32:58 -0400 (EDT), justan wrote:

We rent a lot of cars and using them is always an adventure.


My feelings on renting cars is the same as renting bedrooms.

When we are renting a car, we are usually renting a bedroom too. (also
an airplane seat).


I must be anti-social. I shy away from all of those things.
--
x


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