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Old November 18th 03, 02:28 PM
 
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Default Time limit for hearing (not filing) protest

I was just informed last week that I was being protested for a race
that was held at the end of Aug. At the end of the race in question,
another boat informed me that he was protesting me for a foul right
before the start. I was unaware during the race that he had protested
me, and was surprised that there was a foul.

I heard nothing of this protest, and assumed the other skipper had
decided against going thru with it. But last week I learned
otherwise. It was the fault of the fleet captain, he never scheduled
a protest hearing, so I have no fault with the other skipper, he has
told me he attempted to have the hearing, But since nearly 3 months
have gone by, is there any limit on the hearing of a protest? My only
concern is that since so much time has transpired, it will be
difficult to potentially find witnesses to the incident.

Oh, and all racing is finished for the year, the final series scoring
has been published, and the race in question will not alter any of the
results.

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Old November 18th 03, 02:49 PM
Martin
 
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Default Time limit for hearing (not filing) protest

$author = " ;
I was just informed last week that I was being protested for a race
that was held at the end of Aug.


having just re-read the rules, there does not appear to be a time limit for
the hearing. as long as his protest was submitted to the race committee
within two hours (or as modified in the sailing instructions Rule 61.2).


Oh, and all racing is finished for the year, the final series scoring
has been published, and the race in question will not alter any of the
results.


you might want to make that point to the protestor. hopefully he will have
enough common sense to withdraw the protest.

in my lazy opinion, if it doesn't affect your placing and it does get heard,
you might want to plead guilty to save a whole lot of hassle.

cheers
marty
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Old November 18th 03, 04:37 PM
Dennis Bartley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Time limit for hearing (not filing) protest


wrote in message
...
I was just informed last week that I was being protested for a race
that was held at the end of Aug. At the end of the race in question,
another boat informed me that he was protesting me for a foul right
before the start. I was unaware during the race that he had protested
me, and was surprised that there was a foul.

I heard nothing of this protest, and assumed the other skipper had
decided against going thru with it. But last week I learned
otherwise. It was the fault of the fleet captain, he never scheduled
a protest hearing, so I have no fault with the other skipper, he has
told me he attempted to have the hearing, But since nearly 3 months
have gone by, is there any limit on the hearing of a protest? My only
concern is that since so much time has transpired, it will be
difficult to potentially find witnesses to the incident.

Oh, and all racing is finished for the year, the final series scoring
has been published, and the race in question will not alter any of the
results.


There is no time limit that I know of for hearing a protest. The committee
tries to hold a hearing that's convenient to all parties if possible. There
should be a reasonable explanation for the delay. Some parties to the
protest or judges may have been out of town, etc. It is a bit odd that you
as one of the parties was not informed about the delay.

The important time limit is when you were attempted to be notified about the
incident on the water. If this was a violation of a racing rule before the
start, then a flag had to be flown, and the word "protest" hailed. You
didn't have to see the flag or hear the hail, but it had to be done
nevertheless. If there were any other requirements in your sailing
instructions (like notifying the r/c at her finish), that also had to be
done.

Once a proper protest is filed with the protest committee, they have to hold
a hearing. The p/c can't drop it because it doesn't effect results.



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Old November 18th 03, 04:47 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Time limit for hearing (not filing) protest

I've not seen the protest, so I am only guessing what it is, barging
at the start. I assume all the requisite things have been met, flying
the flag, hailing protest, etc... but I never heard it.

The fleet captain 'dropped the ball' is all I know, and the protest
was never scheduled. I may just withdraw, since it doesnt affect any
of the outcome, but I am hesitant because of other issues.

I was just wondering if I can dispense with this if there is a
'statute of limitations' on a protest.

Thanks,

Drew
  #5   Report Post  
Old November 19th 03, 02:03 AM
Wim
 
Posts: n/a
Default Time limit for hearing (not filing) protest

For most Regatta's "Sailing Instructions" are issued to all the
participants and I assume at yours as well.
Protest and the "how to" and "its timelines" are published.
What were the instructions for your race(s)??--
You cannot deviate from the SI.
c ya Wim
www.cruising.ca/thousand/f-index.html


wrote in message
...
: I was just informed last week that I was being protested for a race
: that was held at the end of Aug. At the end of the race in question,
: another boat informed me that he was protesting me for a foul right
: before the start. I was unaware during the race that he had protested
: me, and was surprised that there was a foul.
:
: I heard nothing of this protest, and assumed the other skipper had
: decided against going thru with it. But last week I learned
: otherwise. It was the fault of the fleet captain, he never scheduled
: a protest hearing, so I have no fault with the other skipper, he has
: told me he attempted to have the hearing, But since nearly 3 months
: have gone by, is there any limit on the hearing of a protest? My only
: concern is that since so much time has transpired, it will be
: difficult to potentially find witnesses to the incident.
:
: Oh, and all racing is finished for the year, the final series scoring
: has been published, and the race in question will not alter any of the
: results.




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Old November 19th 03, 02:13 AM
NoOp
 
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Default Time limit for hearing (not filing) protest

Martin wrote:



in my lazy opinion, if it doesn't affect your placing and it does get heard,
you might want to plead guilty to save a whole lot of hassle.


I think that I would do just the opposite on the basis of principal.

If the fleet captain is allowed to get away with an "oops I forgot" and
holds the initial hearing 3 months after the fact, then who knows what
he/she will be allowed to get away with next? This sets a dangerous
precidence... the next thing you know the fleet captain and PC will
start holding hearings for races from last year, or the year before.

Given drewr's posting IP address, I am assuming that drewr is talking
about a US sailing regatta, so the rest of this is directed to him/her:

I'd ask them to notify you formally, in writing, of their intention to
hold the hearing with notice of time and place. Then I'd do the following:

1. Review RRS 2001-2004, particularly:
Part 5 PROTESTS, REDRESS, HEARINGS, MISCONDUCT AND APPEALS
Part 7 RACE ORGANIZATION (89)
Appendix F APPEALS PROCEDURES
APPENDIX J NOTICE OF RACE AND SAILING INSTRUCTIONS (J2.2 (29))
APPENDIX L RECOMMENDATIONS FOR PROTEST COMMITTEES

2. Review US SAILING Prescriptions to 2001-04 Racing Rules of Sailing

3. Request and review the original Notice of Race and Sailing
Instructions very carefully. Note if there were any instructions
regarding protests, protest hearings, etc. Request that the FC, RC, and
PC provide you with copies of all official notices that were posted
during the regatta -- particularly those advising of any changes to the
Sailing Instructions, Rules, and/or protests.

4. Check any other class or fleet rules that might be relevant.

5. Request the names and detailed contact information of all Race
Committee, Race Officials, and Protest Committee members, witnesses,
plus a copy of the original protest form.

6. Check to see if there is an SRO in your area
(http://www.ussailing.org/racemgt/ro_search.htm) and give him/her a call
& ask for advise -- that's what they are there for.

7. Unless there are allegations of gross misconduct, in my opinion
whatever you did on the start line (if that is the basis of the protest)
3 months ago can't be worse than what the FC is attempting to do now.
Let the FC, RC, and PC know that you intend to file a formal appeal to
the national authority of the venue. Actually, a formal appeal to the
national authority might help someone else in this situation somewhere
down the road... particularly if it eventually makes it into the ISAF
casebook.

7. Attend the next YC meeting and vote the "fleet captain" out of the
club :-)


Good luck...








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Old November 19th 03, 03:24 PM
 
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Default Time limit for hearing (not filing) protest

Thank you for your advice. I've done most of what you've suggested as
to reviewing the rules appeals, etc. What I had hoped was that there
was a precedent set which I could cite and make the whole situation
disappear. That doesnt seem to be the case.

You are correct in that I just think that 3 months is too long to hear
a protest. But no, the race in question was merely a Wed night
beercan race.

I may just withdraw, as its not worth the effort to fight it and it is
not the fault of the other skipper. I've already decided to race
elsewhere next year, so voting out the fleet captain does not concern
me.

Thanks again for your advice, I think I will try to contact a local
PRO and see what they say. Meanwhile, if anyone can cite a prior
protest or appeal that is relevant, I would appreciate it.

Drew

  #8   Report Post  
Old November 26th 03, 02:48 PM
Garry McGonigal
 
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Default Time limit for hearing (not filing) protest

Just a few comments. In terms of a protest hearing, there are two phases to
a protest hearing. The first phase is the determination of whether or not
the protest is valid. If it is valid, then they go to the second phase
which is the taking of evidence, etc. and decision.

During Phase I, the check list would probably include, and with reference to
the following documents: The club's Sailing Instructions and are they valid
SI's, or the section that might be referenced to as an element of the
protest, is it a valid SI. The ISAF Racing Rules and the country's
prescriptions to such. next, at the time of the infraction, did the
protestor hail 'Protest" and in accordance with the Racing Rules, when did
the Protestor fly a Swallow Tail Code B flag (doesn't have to be a swallow
tail, but that sometimes is debatable). The Protestor is not obligated for
the protestee to hear "Protest". Was that red flag flown throughout the
balance of the race to the finish. Was the Race Committee boat notified of
the protest. Now, here is where either the SI's kick in or the ISAF Rules,
in terms of a formal protest being handed in to the race committee office,
or the Race Chair, or a designated official. The ISAF has a 2 hr. time
limit after the last boat has crossed the finish line to have the Race
Office notified of a protest, unless the Race Committee boat has valid
reason to extend. SI's often will spell out a time limit when the RC boat
docks. Generally, the Race Committee official then is to notify the
protestee and at some point provide them with a copy of the protest.

As a Protest Chair I would find it unacceptable that a week or months, even
a day, has elapsed before the protestee was notified of a protest, and the
details. That is denying the protestee the opportunity to assemble any
witnesses, etc. in a reasonable and fair manner and while events are
current. On that basis alone I would deny the protest as being valid.

One also looks at the content of the protest to determine if the material is
valid...there is latitude for the Protest Committee to correct or add a
degree of information on the protest form.

In your instance, I would want to know the time of the alleged instance
before the starting signal. If it was between the 5 and 4 minute signals,
then it is not relevant because it is not until the 4 minute signal that the
Racing Rules fully kick in -- and yes, there have been cases of exactly such
protests (before the 4 minute signal).

In terms of how long after a protest has been lodged (valid) can a hearing
occur, well unless the SI's say something specific on it, then it is up to
the Race Committee to have a proper process in place for such. For example,
at some US clubs, or groups of clubs, then may hold all protests hearings
after the racing season has finished, a designated location, and sometimes
bring in international officials for the hearings. Other clubs have it
written in the SI's to be held by a specified time and within a week of the
protest, of course subject to change for valid reasons.

So, the fact that they waited a couple of months after the race to even
notify you of a protest is valid grounds for dismissal. You have rights and
are not to be unfairly treated.

Two seasons ago, after racing finished I was contacted by a protestee
concerning what he felt was unfair treatment by the protest committee. I
outlined that he has a right to appeal, what the steps were at the club
level and then further up. Since I was not involved with the hearing, etc.,
I said I will have a look at it. He felt that who they put together to form
a Protest Committee had already made their minds up on the decision before a
hearing and that during the hearing he was unfairly treated. I reviewed the
materials available, met with the Protest Chair who was also the Race Chair
(that is not wise), went over the options. In his view he stated the fellow
was guilty there will be no appeal at the club level, period. I advised
that given the material I have before me, if it does get appealed at the
national level the protest will be thrown out and the club possibly censored
or he, for the actions taken. That got his attention. I suggested bringing
the two parties together and I will hold an unofficial protest hearing as it
would be conducted at the national level -- just so the protestee gets his
fair time and then we will see what a decision might be. So we did it.
Took a couple of hrs to get through it all (as opposed to the original 5
minutes). At the end of the 'hearing' the protestor put in writing his
withdrawal of the protest. Once all of the sequences were worked out,
witnesses heard, it then was evident that the protestee did no wrong and was
in a situation where he could not avoid and that perhaps the protestor
caused the problems. Just fair and honest look at all of the facts.

One of the items about the Race Chair not being a part of a Protest
Committee is that it allows the Race Chair to look at the protest, perhaps
provide some suggestions that there might be problems with the protest, that
it may not be valid, etc., and maybe avoid having a Protest Hearing -- there
are times when as a Protest Committee Chair or Member, you can see that
straight up the protest might not survive even a validity check, but you can
not say anything about that. The Race Chair can, or can sit both parties
down and discuss it first.

Enough said.


wrote in message
...
I was just informed last week that I was being protested for a race
that was held at the end of Aug. At the end of the race in question,
another boat informed me that he was protesting me for a foul right
before the start. I was unaware during the race that he had protested
me, and was surprised that there was a foul.

I heard nothing of this protest, and assumed the other skipper had
decided against going thru with it. But last week I learned
otherwise. It was the fault of the fleet captain, he never scheduled
a protest hearing, so I have no fault with the other skipper, he has
told me he attempted to have the hearing, But since nearly 3 months
have gone by, is there any limit on the hearing of a protest? My only
concern is that since so much time has transpired, it will be
difficult to potentially find witnesses to the incident.

Oh, and all racing is finished for the year, the final series scoring
has been published, and the race in question will not alter any of the
results.



  #9   Report Post  
Old November 27th 03, 12:48 PM
Rob Overton
 
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Default Time limit for hearing (not filing) protest

"Garry McGonigal" wrote in message ...

As a Protest Chair I would find it unacceptable that a week or months, even
a day, has elapsed before the protestee was notified of a protest, and the
details. That is denying the protestee the opportunity to assemble any
witnesses, etc. in a reasonable and fair manner and while events are
current. On that basis alone I would deny the protest as being valid.


Just wanted to make sure there's no misunderstanding here. A Protest
Chair must follow the rules, which make no mention of a time period
for notifying the protestee after the protest is filed. So hopefully,
if all the requirements for notification on the water (hail, flag) and
for filing were met, and there's nothing in the Notice of Race or
Sailing Instructions about how the protestee gets notified, you would
not "deny the protest as being valid", because as a Protest Chair
you'd be following the rules and not your "common sense", right?


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