[Mr. Luddite]

On 11/3/2014 4:46 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 16:02:41 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


You think the authorities are going to come knocking on your door?

You might get a warm feeling about this but if they were going to come
knocking on your door, they still will. Murders are usually solved by
motive and opportunity if they don't just catch the guy with the gun
(most acquaintance murders and suicides)

If the person you sold the gun to was a total stranger, this might
help you, but John already said he would go though a FFL with a
stranger. I might just settle for a bill of sale that had the driver's
license number on it. (maybe a picture of the guy or his car, with
tag) I took a picture of the FFL who bought my machine gun standing by
his truck with the tag showing.
If this is a family member or close friend, you are probably still on
the suspect list if they did not report it stolen/lost and you have a
link to the victim or you look like the suspect..

When you are in a state without required registrations "I sold it" is
still a defense. They still have to put you at the scene of the crime
with a plausible reason you might kill this person.

BTW the chance that they can or would actually trace a gun back to the
original buyer are pretty slim. If you do know the guy who bought it
from you, you can still finger the guy and a signed bill of sale is
certainly a plus.



I chuckled a little with your descriptions of creative ways to prove you
sold or transferred a gun to someone.

Why not just use the existing system that has been in use successfully
for many years. It's in place and recognized as valid proof of transfer
throughout the country.

[Poco Loco]

On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 17:00:56 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/3/2014 4:46 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 16:02:41 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


You think the authorities are going to come knocking on your door?

You might get a warm feeling about this but if they were going to come
knocking on your door, they still will. Murders are usually solved by
motive and opportunity if they don't just catch the guy with the gun
(most acquaintance murders and suicides)

If the person you sold the gun to was a total stranger, this might
help you, but John already said he would go though a FFL with a
stranger. I might just settle for a bill of sale that had the driver's
license number on it. (maybe a picture of the guy or his car, with
tag) I took a picture of the FFL who bought my machine gun standing by
his truck with the tag showing.
If this is a family member or close friend, you are probably still on
the suspect list if they did not report it stolen/lost and you have a
link to the victim or you look like the suspect..

When you are in a state without required registrations "I sold it" is
still a defense. They still have to put you at the scene of the crime
with a plausible reason you might kill this person.

BTW the chance that they can or would actually trace a gun back to the
original buyer are pretty slim. If you do know the guy who bought it
from you, you can still finger the guy and a signed bill of sale is
certainly a plus.



I chuckled a little with your descriptions of creative ways to prove you
sold or transferred a gun to someone.

Why not just use the existing system that has been in use successfully
for many years. It's in place and recognized as valid proof of transfer
throughout the country.


My way is free, for one thing, and it requires no running around the
countryside looking for an FFL who is home and wants to 'do the deed'.
What is so 'creative' about the transfer form I've shown you several
times.

[KC]

On 11/3/2014 4:46 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 16:02:41 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


You think the authorities are going to come knocking on your door?
30
You might get a warm feeling about this but if they were going to come
knocking on your door, they still will. Murders are usually solved by
motive and opportunity if they don't just catch the guy with the gun
(most acquaintance murders and suicides)

If the person you sold the gun to was a total stranger, this might
help you, but John already said he would go though a FFL with a
stranger. I might just settle for a bill of sale that had the driver's
license number on it. (maybe a picture of the guy or his car, with
tag) I took a picture of the FFL who bought my machine gun standing by
his truck with the tag showing.
If this is a family member or close friend, you are probably still on
the suspect list if they did not report it stolen/lost and you have a
link to the victim or you look like the suspect..

When you are in a state without required registrations "I sold it" is
still a defense. They still have to put you at the scene of the crime
with a plausible reason you might kill this person.

BTW the chance that they can or would actually trace a gun back to the
original buyer are pretty slim. If you do know the guy who bought it
from you, you can still finger the guy and a signed bill of sale is
certainly a plus.



If I want a gun, I have to get a pardon first.
I had to go to the town and apply to vote.
I have no problem with that.
Paperwork keeps guns from "floating" like a cell phone or a tv at a pawn
shop so folks buy a tv, then sell it, buy another when they need it,
etc.... I see no problem with a paper trail, in fact if it keeps the
guns from flowing like water, I am all for it. Nowhere that I know of in
the constitution does it say the govt can't keep track of guns, just
that you can have 'em.... Just my .02

[Mr. Luddite]

On 11/3/2014 5:36 PM, KC wrote:
On 11/3/2014 4:46 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 16:02:41 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


You think the authorities are going to come knocking on your door?
30
You might get a warm feeling about this but if they were going to come
knocking on your door, they still will. Murders are usually solved by
motive and opportunity if they don't just catch the guy with the gun
(most acquaintance murders and suicides)

If the person you sold the gun to was a total stranger, this might
help you, but John already said he would go though a FFL with a
stranger. I might just settle for a bill of sale that had the driver's
license number on it. (maybe a picture of the guy or his car, with
tag) I took a picture of the FFL who bought my machine gun standing by
his truck with the tag showing.
If this is a family member or close friend, you are probably still on
the suspect list if they did not report it stolen/lost and you have a
link to the victim or you look like the suspect..

When you are in a state without required registrations "I sold it" is
still a defense. They still have to put you at the scene of the crime
with a plausible reason you might kill this person.

BTW the chance that they can or would actually trace a gun back to the
original buyer are pretty slim. If you do know the guy who bought it
from you, you can still finger the guy and a signed bill of sale is
certainly a plus.



If I want a gun, I have to get a pardon first.
I had to go to the town and apply to vote.
I have no problem with that.
Paperwork keeps guns from "floating" like a cell phone or a tv at a pawn
shop so folks buy a tv, then sell it, buy another when they need it,
etc.... I see no problem with a paper trail, in fact if it keeps the
guns from flowing like water, I am all for it. Nowhere that I know of in
the constitution does it say the govt can't keep track of guns, just
that you can have 'em.... Just my .02


I agree 100 percent Scott. Background checks and the registration of a
transfer or sale in no way infringes on anyone's rights.

The NRA has a very interesting history. It started as an organization
promoting marksmanship and safety. It supported and endorsed early gun
control laws to benefit citizens as a whole.

More recently the NRA has actually split into sub organizations one of
which lobbies heavily against *any* changes in gun laws. The approach
they take is "shotgun" style, meaning they will oppose *any* change,
regardless of how valid or beneficial that change might be. Wayne
alluded to that in a recent post. It's the "slippery slope" syndrome
used basically to instil concern that eventually the government is
coming to take your guns.

This is not the NRA of old. It still exists and still promotes safety
and responsibility in the ownership of firearms. It's the off shoot
sub-division within the NRA umbrella that became the lobbying arm.

[Boating All Out]

In article ,
says...


It will show the current or last registered owner. The fewer guns being
transferred with no traceability the better off *everyone* is.

That's right. I'd make gun owners run a few hurdles too.
Thirty day wait times. Gun safety courses. Moderate annual fees.
Maybe 3 year retraining.
Jail time for gun theft/loss law reporting violations.
A bit more than a 16 year-old has to comply with to drive a car.
Nothing that would even hinder the serious gun nut, but would put off
the "casual" gun owner.
It'll happen when society is free of old guys with old paranoid ideas.
In the meantime they'll be the primary tools of the gun industry.
And so it goes.

[Wayne.B]

On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 13:39:41 -0500, Poco Loco
wrote:

If you really want a good delineating point, liberals are city people
who expect the government or a government regulated business will
provide for their every need. Conservatives tend to not be typical
city people who do not need someone to provide everything they need
and they are willing to do things themselves without a nanny state
government and hired talent coddling them all the way.

Well said.

===

Yes.

All of this talk about how benign mandatory registration is, assumes
that we will always have a benign government going forward. I don't
think that's a good assumption at all, and meanwhile you've let the
camel get his nose into the tent in a big way. There's a very real
risk of making the cure worse than the problem.

[Mr. Luddite]

On 11/3/2014 6:22 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 13:39:41 -0500, Poco Loco
wrote:

If you really want a good delineating point, liberals are city people
who expect the government or a government regulated business will
provide for their every need. Conservatives tend to not be typical
city people who do not need someone to provide everything they need
and they are willing to do things themselves without a nanny state
government and hired talent coddling them all the way.

Well said.

===

Yes.

All of this talk about how benign mandatory registration is, assumes
that we will always have a benign government going forward. I don't
think that's a good assumption at all, and meanwhile you've let the
camel get his nose into the tent in a big way. There's a very real
risk of making the cure worse than the problem.



Ah, the "slippery slope" argument again except now it's a camel sticking
his nose in your tent. :-)

If mandatory registration really bothers anyone, they should never
purchase a gun from a dealer. They will have to rely on private
transfers or "out of the car trunk" deals at gun shows.

[Poco Loco]

On Mon, 3 Nov 2014 17:19:50 -0600, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...


It will show the current or last registered owner. The fewer guns being
transferred with no traceability the better off *everyone* is.

That's right. I'd make gun owners run a few hurdles too.
Thirty day wait times. Gun safety courses. Moderate annual fees.
Maybe 3 year retraining.
Jail time for gun theft/loss law reporting violations.
A bit more than a 16 year-old has to comply with to drive a car.
Nothing that would even hinder the serious gun nut, but would put off
the "casual" gun owner.
It'll happen when society is free of old guys with old paranoid ideas.
In the meantime they'll be the primary tools of the gun industry.
And so it goes.



Ought to do the same thing with voting.

[Mr. Luddite]

On 11/3/2014 7:06 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 17:00:56 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/3/2014 4:46 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 16:02:41 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


You think the authorities are going to come knocking on your door?

You might get a warm feeling about this but if they were going to come
knocking on your door, they still will. Murders are usually solved by
motive and opportunity if they don't just catch the guy with the gun
(most acquaintance murders and suicides)

If the person you sold the gun to was a total stranger, this might
help you, but John already said he would go though a FFL with a
stranger. I might just settle for a bill of sale that had the driver's
license number on it. (maybe a picture of the guy or his car, with
tag) I took a picture of the FFL who bought my machine gun standing by
his truck with the tag showing.
If this is a family member or close friend, you are probably still on
the suspect list if they did not report it stolen/lost and you have a
link to the victim or you look like the suspect..

When you are in a state without required registrations "I sold it" is
still a defense. They still have to put you at the scene of the crime
with a plausible reason you might kill this person.

BTW the chance that they can or would actually trace a gun back to the
original buyer are pretty slim. If you do know the guy who bought it
from you, you can still finger the guy and a signed bill of sale is
certainly a plus.



I chuckled a little with your descriptions of creative ways to prove you
sold or transferred a gun to someone.

Why not just use the existing system that has been in use successfully
for many years. It's in place and recognized as valid proof of transfer
throughout the country.


If "throughout the country" is true if you are just talking about the
8 states that regulate private sales.



Greg, the whole debate is about expanding the number of states that
regulate private sales pr make it universal throughout the USA. It's on
the ballot in Washington (state) tomorrow. Ironically there are two
initiatives. Initiative 591 would ban background checks on firearms,
unless in compliance with federal standards. The second, Initiative 594
would require universal background checks on all gun purchases.

The second (594) has a 2:1 support level according to polls.

[F*O*A*D]

On 11/3/14 6:47 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/3/2014 6:22 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 13:39:41 -0500, Poco Loco
wrote:

If you really want a good delineating point, liberals are city people
who expect the government or a government regulated business will
provide for their every need. Conservatives tend to not be typical
city people who do not need someone to provide everything they need
and they are willing to do things themselves without a nanny state
government and hired talent coddling them all the way.

Well said.

===

Yes.

All of this talk about how benign mandatory registration is, assumes
that we will always have a benign government going forward. I don't
think that's a good assumption at all, and meanwhile you've let the
camel get his nose into the tent in a big way. There's a very real
risk of making the cure worse than the problem.



Ah, the "slippery slope" argument again except now it's a camel sticking
his nose in your tent. :-)

If mandatory registration really bothers anyone, they should never
purchase a gun from a dealer. They will have to rely on private
transfers or "out of the car trunk" deals at gun shows.




Wayne's answer is the same one conservatives gave to oppose the
abolition of slavery, to oppose child labor laws, to keep from giving
women the vote, to oppose social security, to oppose medicare, to oppose
the voting rights act, et cetera ad nauseum.

"once you let blacks vote, their noses will be in the tent in a big way."



--
“There’s more idleness and abuse of government favors among the
economically privileged than among the ranks of the disadvantaged.” -
Norman Mailer