On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 11:19:50 -0600, Califbill wrote:

Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 10:59:47 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 2/7/14, 10:50 AM, Tim wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2014 9:46:00 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote:

Yeah, what we have created in this country is a growth industry for the

privatization of penal institutions. The corporations pressure the

legislators to pass more laws and stiffer sentences so more people can

be imprisoned for longer periods of time and so the private slams will

be guaranteed more income. It's a wonderful system and requires a lot

less brainpower than something that might actually work.



What would you do to handle the drug problem?



I don't claim to have *the* solution, but I do know that creating a
growth industry in prisons for the private sector ain't it. I think
decriminalizing simple possession for personal use would be a good
starting point, though.

I suppose that's for all the drugs up through heroin? I suppose you
disagree with the idea of
marijuana being a stepping stone to the 'better' stuff. So where would you draw the line?

Heroin is actually not a really bad 'hard' drug. Lots of heroin addicts
were functioning members of society. Lots turned to crime because of the
costs to procure, but heroin may kill you in the end because of paranoia.
Ray Charles was a heroin addict for years. Lots of other examples. There
are drugs too nasty to legalize, but the country will not come to an end
with most drugs available. Alcohol probably causes more deaths than hard
drugs. Including the drug wars for sales territory. You have a friend, I
think it was you, who is hooked on OxyContin. Is he still a functioning
member of society? What the hell is accomplished by sending someone to
prison for use? Puts their family in the welfare system, costs to
incarcerate, and ruins any prospect for a decent job later. If they commit
a crime to pay for the drugs, then jail them. But if costs are low enough,
they will work and pay for the drug, just like alcohol. This was supposed
to be a free country. We are being controlled more, and observed more than
a lot of western countries these days. And it is both major parties
responsible, not just one side or the other.

I'm no expert on drugs, and don't have an oxycontin hooked friend, that I know of. I suppose the
cost of incarceration are more than the costs for emergency OD care, so stopping the incarceration
may be a good idea. It's obviously not much of a deterrent.

On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 11:34:39 -0500, Poco Loco
wrote:

Do you agree that marijuana is a stepping stone to more potent stuff? That seemed to be a theme of
the video. My supposition was based on the 'liberalism' of places where the sale of marijuana has
been legalized.

===

There's no clinical reason for it to be considered a "stepping stone"
but it does bring kids into contact with the drug culture in general,
and that is not a good thing. Best thing for parents is to let their
views be firmly known, and to keep track of their friends. "Friends"
are where a lot of the mischief starts. Make sure the kids are kept
occupied with wholesome activities and reward them for success in
those endeavors. A bit of luck helps also.

On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 11:19:50 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

Heroin is actually not a really bad 'hard' drug.

===

My oldest son once came home and said something like that. I told
him it was the stupidest thing I'd ever heard him say. The problem
with heroin is its extraordinarily addictive quality that never seems
to let go once a user is hooked.

Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 11:19:50 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

Heroin is actually not a really bad 'hard' drug.

===

My oldest son once came home and said something like that. I told
him it was the stupidest thing I'd ever heard him say. The problem
with heroin is its extraordinarily addictive quality that never seems
to let go once a user is hooked.

True on the addiction. But a heroin addict can lead a productive life.
Now we just have subsidized heroin addiction, free methadone. Meth an
those drugs, no productive life. Side effect of Meth is paranoia. How
many of these mass shooting perps were Meth abusers? My fishing partner is
a retired cop. Was an investigator for the state AG. He said they always
hated taking down a Meth Lab. Drug dealers are paranoid to start with, and
then add in lots of firearms and a drug induced paranoia and things can go
bad. He ended up retired before he wanted to, as broke a knee in a drug
raid.

On 2/7/2014 10:59 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 2/7/14, 10:50 AM, Tim wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2014 9:46:00 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote:

Yeah, what we have created in this country is a growth industry for the

privatization of penal institutions. The corporations pressure the

legislators to pass more laws and stiffer sentences so more people can

be imprisoned for longer periods of time and so the private slams will

be guaranteed more income. It's a wonderful system and requires a lot

less brainpower than something that might actually work.



What would you do to handle the drug problem?



I don't claim to have *the* solution, but I do know that creating a
growth industry in prisons for the private sector ain't it. I think
decriminalizing simple possession for personal use would be a good
starting point, though.


MA already decriminalized pot for adult possession of an ounce or less.

That's not the problem. The problem is with much more dangerous and
addictive opiates.

As previously posted, my suggestion is mandatory drug counseling,
education and rehab if required for minors caught with illegal drugs.
The entire cost of the minor's treatment and education program to be
borne entirely by the kid's parents.

The parents is where I cast the blame.

On 2/7/2014 12:19 PM, Califbill wrote:
Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 11:24:38 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 2/7/14, 11:19 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 10:59:47 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 2/7/14, 10:50 AM, Tim wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2014 9:46:00 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote:

Yeah, what we have created in this country is a growth industry for the

privatization of penal institutions. The corporations pressure the

legislators to pass more laws and stiffer sentences so more people can

be imprisoned for longer periods of time and so the private slams will

be guaranteed more income. It's a wonderful system and requires a lot

less brainpower than something that might actually work.



What would you do to handle the drug problem?



I don't claim to have *the* solution, but I do know that creating a
growth industry in prisons for the private sector ain't it. I think
decriminalizing simple possession for personal use would be a good
starting point, though.

I suppose that's for all the drugs up through heroin? I suppose you
disagree with the idea of
marijuana being a stepping stone to the 'better' stuff. So where would you draw the line?


As I stated already, I think decriminalizing simple possession

...of what??

for
personal use (that implies small amounts) would be a good starting point.

You are free to "suppose" if you wish. That won't necessarily make your
"supposes" accurate, of course, but so long as they are simple supposes
for personal use, it doesn't matter.


Do you agree that marijuana is a stepping stone to more potent stuff?
That seemed to be a theme of
the video. My supposition was based on the 'liberalism' of places where
the sale of marijuana has
been legalized.

Pot is not a stepping stone in 90% of the cases! Look at the pot
consumption over the years. How many went on to hard drugs because of Pot
use? When I was a lot younger, I went to San Francisco State University.
Pot was readily available. Lots of people in SF used it. Had friends who
used it. Friend who has since died from cancer, used it heavily for pain
relief. Al was working, and doing a good job while using pot and suffering
the pain of cancer. Even with the ability and insurance to get
prescription drugs, his choice for relief was a cheap can of Grass. Pot is
readily available here. Some of the finest grass in the world is grown on
the North Coast of California. We area having fires here, as they now make
a house in a nice neighborhood in to a grow op. Bad wiring seems to be the
lading cause of fires in the business. Why not legalize growing and tax
the product? Last election to legalize, had lots of signs from the pot
growers in Mendocino against the legalization as they feel the will be put
out of business by big corporate growers. Not because they want to be
illegal. Yes, I have tried it. Did not do much for me. I also have not
smoked since high school. Before I was the legal age to smoke. That
stopped kids?



Pot may not be a chemical "stepping stone" in terms of addiction however
I think it *is* a peer pressure stepping stone to more dangerous and
addictive drugs in kids. Social pressures will influence them to try
anything. Parents need to be held responsible for the education and
control over what they brought into the world do. *That* is the
problem. Parents today blame it on everyone else and expect someone
else (or the government) to do something about it.

Doesn't help to have a president that publicly acknowledges that pot
isn't that dangerous. He's right, but what kind of influence does that
have on a 12 to 14 year old? They can decide for themselves when they
become adults.

On 2/7/2014 11:19 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
the 'better' stuff. So where would you draw the line?

Right where his toes are pointing, of course.

On 2/7/2014 12:19 PM, Califbill wrote:
Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 10:59:47 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 2/7/14, 10:50 AM, Tim wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2014 9:46:00 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote:

Yeah, what we have created in this country is a growth industry for the

privatization of penal institutions. The corporations pressure the

legislators to pass more laws and stiffer sentences so more people can

be imprisoned for longer periods of time and so the private slams will

be guaranteed more income. It's a wonderful system and requires a lot

less brainpower than something that might actually work.



What would you do to handle the drug problem?



I don't claim to have *the* solution, but I do know that creating a
growth industry in prisons for the private sector ain't it. I think
decriminalizing simple possession for personal use would be a good
starting point, though.

I suppose that's for all the drugs up through heroin? I suppose you
disagree with the idea of
marijuana being a stepping stone to the 'better' stuff. So where would you draw the line?

Heroin is actually not a really bad 'hard' drug. Lots of heroin addicts
were functioning members of society. Lots turned to crime because of the
costs to procure, but heroin may kill you in the end because of paranoia.
Ray Charles was a heroin addict for years. Lots of other examples. There
are drugs too nasty to legalize, but the country will not come to an end
with most drugs available. Alcohol probably causes more deaths than hard
drugs. Including the drug wars for sales territory. You have a friend, I
think it was you, who is hooked on OxyContin. Is he still a functioning
member of society? What the hell is accomplished by sending someone to
prison for use? Puts their family in the welfare system, costs to
incarcerate, and ruins any prospect for a decent job later. If they commit
a crime to pay for the drugs, then jail them. But if costs are low enough,
they will work and pay for the drug, just like alcohol. This was supposed
to be a free country. We are being controlled more, and observed more than
a lot of western countries these days. And it is both major parties
responsible, not just one side or the other.



Bill, that's about the dumbest post I've seen here in a long time.

On 2/7/2014 12:39 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 11:19:50 -0600, Califbill wrote:

Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 10:59:47 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 2/7/14, 10:50 AM, Tim wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2014 9:46:00 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote:

Yeah, what we have created in this country is a growth industry for the

privatization of penal institutions. The corporations pressure the

legislators to pass more laws and stiffer sentences so more people can

be imprisoned for longer periods of time and so the private slams will

be guaranteed more income. It's a wonderful system and requires a lot

less brainpower than something that might actually work.



What would you do to handle the drug problem?



I don't claim to have *the* solution, but I do know that creating a
growth industry in prisons for the private sector ain't it. I think
decriminalizing simple possession for personal use would be a good
starting point, though.

I suppose that's for all the drugs up through heroin? I suppose you
disagree with the idea of
marijuana being a stepping stone to the 'better' stuff. So where would you draw the line?

Heroin is actually not a really bad 'hard' drug. Lots of heroin addicts
were functioning members of society. Lots turned to crime because of the
costs to procure, but heroin may kill you in the end because of paranoia.
Ray Charles was a heroin addict for years. Lots of other examples. There
are drugs too nasty to legalize, but the country will not come to an end
with most drugs available. Alcohol probably causes more deaths than hard
drugs. Including the drug wars for sales territory. You have a friend, I
think it was you, who is hooked on OxyContin. Is he still a functioning
member of society? What the hell is accomplished by sending someone to
prison for use? Puts their family in the welfare system, costs to
incarcerate, and ruins any prospect for a decent job later. If they commit
a crime to pay for the drugs, then jail them. But if costs are low enough,
they will work and pay for the drug, just like alcohol. This was supposed
to be a free country. We are being controlled more, and observed more than
a lot of western countries these days. And it is both major parties
responsible, not just one side or the other.

I'm no expert on drugs, and don't have an oxycontin hooked friend, that I know of. I suppose the
cost of incarceration are more than the costs for emergency OD care, so stopping the incarceration
may be a good idea. It's obviously not much of a deterrent.


I have a good friend who's daughter got hooked on oxycontin and then
went to heroin because it's cheaper. I have a niece who has followed
the same path. Both started as teenagers in high school. Both have
been through rehab, one twice, the other three times. Both have stolen
money, jewelry and other items from their parents, grandparents, other
relatives and former friends to fund their addictions. Failed
marriages, abortions, and heartbreak for the parents. My 61 year old
sister-in-law (mother of the niece) is now in therapy and is taking
anti-anxiety pills because she's coming apart emotionally due to her
daughter's lifestyle.

Anyone who tells me heroin is "not a really bad hard drug" has a lot of
convincing to do to me.

On 2/7/2014 12:45 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 10:10:30 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


What would you do to handle the drug problem? The jails already are
filled with addicts and drug dealers. Build more jails?

Yes but not the kid of jail they use now. We need drug jail for
non-violent drug offenders where they actually try to rehabilitate
them.



It's extremely difficult to "rehabilitate" a drug addict, especially in
an institutional type setting. Long term success rates are alarmingly
low. Heroin addiction is something you fight for the rest of your life.

It takes acute attention and education before to stop it from ever
happening in the first place.