Dear Lloyd:

You initiated "the need to discuss sponsons", as the record shows.

Now you want a "moderated" (i.e. censored) discussion. A discussion
cannot have one side. I want you to know that these posts are included
in a very large social psychology experiment.

You see, Milgram had a lot of flack at Yale in the 60's, for hurting
subjects psychologically. But this newsgroup already puts paddlers in
the water with no means of escape. (Hurting them terminally.) So they
die anyway. I am well within any legal and academic ethical
boundaries. In fact I need to occasionally show that I do everything
possible to try to prevent canoe and kayak deaths.

What is interesting for the study is your discussion, among others.
Not only that, you continue to wish the worst for future dead Girl
Guides etc. (No means to escape deadly waters.) Those dear little
girls were wearing PFDs of course.

Anyone can see:

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

and they have no wonder that sales decline etc., in a sport that wants
to make it as hard as possible to get out of the water and live. Even
for kids. Not a good move for decent people. Or anyone trying to
promote a sport. Sell by safety. And other positive benefits. No point
making boats that hurt people, when they can be remarkably safe!

Tim


"Lloyd Bowles" wrote in message om...
If you are a canoeist & want to participate in canoe safety discussion
without spammers & idiots, just cruise over to Canadian Canoe Routes at
http://www.myccr.com/ . It's moderated & it's very active.

Lloyd Bowles
www.madcanoeist.4ever.cc

I shall be using Lloyd's posts too at the coroner's inquest into the
Girl Guides' deaths. Several years ago Lloyd sent me emails indicating
there was no way to rescue a canoe. (see Bill Mason's "Song of the
Paddle" for the same opinion.)

Lloyd now is one person here who wants canoes to kill as effectively
as possible, apparently. Lloyd is not a nut as he suggests below. Who
would kill Girl Guides deliberately, repeatedly?

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

It is absurdly simple! Give people a means to get out of the water and
they don't die!

City waterfronts have buoyant, lifesaving objects available to save
anyone. (Most people don't stroll wearing a PFD!) For a thousand years
buoyant objects have saved human lives. But canoes and kayaks are
denied a simple, inexpensive, and obvious means to get out of the
water in 2004! Why have ambulances or even Coast Guards, if the
simplest form of watercraft is allowed to murder children and their
parents at a rate never before seen in history! This death rate is so
simply remedied that eventually, criminal charges are certain.

In Canada, the death rate is much higher than the US, thanks to the
Canadian Coast Guard covering up a study by a Canadian Search and
Rescue Officer who found exactly the same sponson safety reported by
the US Military Special Forces Kayaking Study (10th Airborne) in 1994.
Result: About 500 Canadian canoe and kayak deaths.

This study and others will stand with "Hitler's Willing Executioners"
and Milgram's studies at Yale, regarding the darker aspects of
humanity. You simply have no other instances of such a high death
rate, easily remedied, by such a small "murder cult". I repeat what I
stated above: "There is plenty of "macho" ego, regarding instruction
that no judge or jury can accomplish. There are however, plentiful
arguments that the victims deserved to die, as a Darwinian
perspective."

Tim


"Lloyd Bowles" wrote in message om...
"Serge" wrote in message
om...
Oops... I didn't know what kind of can of worms this topic is.

It is. Rather unavoidable though, because new readers have no idea of the
benefits & drawbacks of various safety options & they have no idea that this
topic will unleash a nutcase.

So carry on the discussion if necessary because it's the only way to learn.
Read the nutcase's posts if you want, but don't respond. Then when you've
had enough, filter him.

If you think I'm the nutcase, filter me. :-)

Lloyd Bowles
www.madcanoeist.4ever.cc

I not only have sponsons on my boat (see the Loonie) on my website (below)
but I also have them on my bicycle and cross country skis. Its a fact that
if you keep falling off your cross country skis into the deep snow beside
the trail you'll eventually get hypothermia.

I'm also considering putting sponsons on my car in case I drive off a
bridge and end up in the water. I wonder how many cars do that each year?
They seem to do it a lot in the movies and movies reflect life. A kayak
only has one person in it but a car can be full of people. Hey, what about
school buses full of annoying kids. They should definitely have
sponsons, or not according to your opinion of annoying kids. The only
problem with putting sponsons on school buses, other than your opinion of
annoying kids, is it will raise school taxes. Its nto enough to do a risk
analysis, you have to do a cost/benefit analysis too.

--
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....stuff deleted
I'm also considering putting sponsons on my car in case I drive off a
bridge and end up in the water. I wonder how many cars do that each year?
They seem to do it a lot in the movies and movies reflect life. A kayak
only has one person in it but a car can be full of people. Hey, what about
school buses full of annoying kids. They should definitely have
sponsons, or not according to your opinion of annoying kids. The only
problem with putting sponsons on school buses, other than your opinion of
annoying kids, is it will raise school taxes. Its nto enough to do a risk
analysis, you have to do a cost/benefit analysis too.


I've decided that your approach is best. My wife and son go costumed as the
Michelan man. The benefits are amazing. Kid is standing in the way when I
drive home, I can just pull into the driveway. Sure, he bounces off the
garage walls a few times, but is completely unharmed. He can't drown, even
if he tries. We are about to do the Golden Gate Bridge stress test of the
device before I turn it loose on the general populous.

There is, I admit, a downside. I can't get either of them into the Honda, so
I have modified it to use gull wing doors. I've the only Honda in Calif.
with Delorean doors. Their extra bulk tends to intefere with steering, but
this isn't imporant because they will be completely safe in any accident.
Too bad about those who failed to realize how compromised my steering was,
but at least my family is safe. Besides, they didn't belong on the sidewalk,
anyway.

Rick

Well Brian, you did not answer the question several months ago:

"Do you prefer murdering boy scouts or girl guides?"

This is the effect of your paddlefloat, roll etc. stupidity. What do
you have to lose if all canoes and kayaks are much safer? It is easy
to make them much safer.

You lose being a moron who instructs people in losing their lives,
with instruction that most sane people reject anyway.

Coward, Murderer (why not try to take me to court) if you are not?

See:

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

Tim



Brian Nystrom wrote in message ...
back40 wrote:

Gawd, if I'd known this would stir up such a hornet's nest....

Well, you didn't know, so don't sweat it. The subject comes up every so
often, Timmy goes on a rant, his ISP eventually pulls the plug due to
the deluge of complaints, then things get back to normal.

Anyway, with such a disparity of opinion (not uncommon these days!) I
think it best if I find out for myself. Your boat fender suggestion is
ingenious, and I just happen to have a few, so, when the water warms
up this summer, we'll do some some capsizing and testing, using the
(inflated)fenders as sponsosn, and as a paddle float, and we'll see
which seems to work better for me.

Before you trust any such system, be sure to test it in rough water. If
there's any small surf available, try it there. What you'll find is that
adding floatation to the sides of a kayak makes it more likely to be
flipped by steep water.

Can't come up with anything original to say?