Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old February 21st 04, 12:59 PM
Tim Ingram
 
Posts: n/a
Default Anyone using Sponsons?

Dear Lloyd:

You initiated "the need to discuss sponsons", as the record shows.

Now you want a "moderated" (i.e. censored) discussion. A discussion
cannot have one side. I want you to know that these posts are included
in a very large social psychology experiment.

You see, Milgram had a lot of flack at Yale in the 60's, for hurting
subjects psychologically. But this newsgroup already puts paddlers in
the water with no means of escape. (Hurting them terminally.) So they
die anyway. I am well within any legal and academic ethical
boundaries. In fact I need to occasionally show that I do everything
possible to try to prevent canoe and kayak deaths.

What is interesting for the study is your discussion, among others.
Not only that, you continue to wish the worst for future dead Girl
Guides etc. (No means to escape deadly waters.) Those dear little
girls were wearing PFDs of course.

Anyone can see:

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

and they have no wonder that sales decline etc., in a sport that wants
to make it as hard as possible to get out of the water and live. Even
for kids. Not a good move for decent people. Or anyone trying to
promote a sport. Sell by safety. And other positive benefits. No point
making boats that hurt people, when they can be remarkably safe!

Tim


"Lloyd Bowles" wrote in message om...
If you are a canoeist & want to participate in canoe safety discussion
without spammers & idiots, just cruise over to Canadian Canoe Routes at
http://www.myccr.com/ . It's moderated & it's very active.

Lloyd Bowles
www.madcanoeist.4ever.cc


  #2   Report Post  
Old February 22nd 04, 12:23 PM
Tim Ingram
 
Posts: n/a
Default Anyone using Sponsons?

I shall be using Lloyd's posts too at the coroner's inquest into the
Girl Guides' deaths. Several years ago Lloyd sent me emails indicating
there was no way to rescue a canoe. (see Bill Mason's "Song of the
Paddle" for the same opinion.)

Lloyd now is one person here who wants canoes to kill as effectively
as possible, apparently. Lloyd is not a nut as he suggests below. Who
would kill Girl Guides deliberately, repeatedly?

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

It is absurdly simple! Give people a means to get out of the water and
they don't die!

City waterfronts have buoyant, lifesaving objects available to save
anyone. (Most people don't stroll wearing a PFD!) For a thousand years
buoyant objects have saved human lives. But canoes and kayaks are
denied a simple, inexpensive, and obvious means to get out of the
water in 2004! Why have ambulances or even Coast Guards, if the
simplest form of watercraft is allowed to murder children and their
parents at a rate never before seen in history! This death rate is so
simply remedied that eventually, criminal charges are certain.

In Canada, the death rate is much higher than the US, thanks to the
Canadian Coast Guard covering up a study by a Canadian Search and
Rescue Officer who found exactly the same sponson safety reported by
the US Military Special Forces Kayaking Study (10th Airborne) in 1994.
Result: About 500 Canadian canoe and kayak deaths.

This study and others will stand with "Hitler's Willing Executioners"
and Milgram's studies at Yale, regarding the darker aspects of
humanity. You simply have no other instances of such a high death
rate, easily remedied, by such a small "murder cult". I repeat what I
stated above: "There is plenty of "macho" ego, regarding instruction
that no judge or jury can accomplish. There are however, plentiful
arguments that the victims deserved to die, as a Darwinian
perspective."

Tim


"Lloyd Bowles" wrote in message om...
"Serge" wrote in message
om...
Oops... I didn't know what kind of can of worms this topic is.


It is. Rather unavoidable though, because new readers have no idea of the
benefits & drawbacks of various safety options & they have no idea that this
topic will unleash a nutcase.

So carry on the discussion if necessary because it's the only way to learn.
Read the nutcase's posts if you want, but don't respond. Then when you've
had enough, filter him.

If you think I'm the nutcase, filter me. :-)

Lloyd Bowles
www.madcanoeist.4ever.cc

  #3   Report Post  
Old February 22nd 04, 01:25 PM
William R. Watt
 
Posts: n/a
Default Anyone using Sponsons?

I not only have sponsons on my boat (see the Loonie) on my website (below)
but I also have them on my bicycle and cross country skis. Its a fact that
if you keep falling off your cross country skis into the deep snow beside
the trail you'll eventually get hypothermia.

I'm also considering putting sponsons on my car in case I drive off a
bridge and end up in the water. I wonder how many cars do that each year?
They seem to do it a lot in the movies and movies reflect life. A kayak
only has one person in it but a car can be full of people. Hey, what about
school buses full of annoying kids. They should definitely have
sponsons, or not according to your opinion of annoying kids. The only
problem with putting sponsons on school buses, other than your opinion of
annoying kids, is it will raise school taxes. Its nto enough to do a risk
analysis, you have to do a cost/benefit analysis too.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned
  #4   Report Post  
Old February 22nd 04, 06:01 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Anyone using Sponsons?

....stuff deleted
I'm also considering putting sponsons on my car in case I drive off a
bridge and end up in the water. I wonder how many cars do that each year?
They seem to do it a lot in the movies and movies reflect life. A kayak
only has one person in it but a car can be full of people. Hey, what about
school buses full of annoying kids. They should definitely have
sponsons, or not according to your opinion of annoying kids. The only
problem with putting sponsons on school buses, other than your opinion of
annoying kids, is it will raise school taxes. Its nto enough to do a risk
analysis, you have to do a cost/benefit analysis too.


I've decided that your approach is best. My wife and son go costumed as the
Michelan man. The benefits are amazing. Kid is standing in the way when I
drive home, I can just pull into the driveway. Sure, he bounces off the
garage walls a few times, but is completely unharmed. He can't drown, even
if he tries. We are about to do the Golden Gate Bridge stress test of the
device before I turn it loose on the general populous.

There is, I admit, a downside. I can't get either of them into the Honda, so
I have modified it to use gull wing doors. I've the only Honda in Calif.
with Delorean doors. Their extra bulk tends to intefere with steering, but
this isn't imporant because they will be completely safe in any accident.
Too bad about those who failed to realize how compromised my steering was,
but at least my family is safe. Besides, they didn't belong on the sidewalk,
anyway.

Rick



  #5   Report Post  
Old February 24th 04, 10:21 PM
Tim Ingram
 
Posts: n/a
Default Anyone using Sponsons?

Well Brian, you did not answer the question several months ago:

"Do you prefer murdering boy scouts or girl guides?"

This is the effect of your paddlefloat, roll etc. stupidity. What do
you have to lose if all canoes and kayaks are much safer? It is easy
to make them much safer.

You lose being a moron who instructs people in losing their lives,
with instruction that most sane people reject anyway.

Coward, Murderer (why not try to take me to court) if you are not?

See:

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

Tim



Brian Nystrom wrote in message ...
back40 wrote:

Gawd, if I'd known this would stir up such a hornet's nest....


Well, you didn't know, so don't sweat it. The subject comes up every so
often, Timmy goes on a rant, his ISP eventually pulls the plug due to
the deluge of complaints, then things get back to normal.

Anyway, with such a disparity of opinion (not uncommon these days!) I
think it best if I find out for myself. Your boat fender suggestion is
ingenious, and I just happen to have a few, so, when the water warms
up this summer, we'll do some some capsizing and testing, using the
(inflated)fenders as sponsosn, and as a paddle float, and we'll see
which seems to work better for me.


Before you trust any such system, be sure to test it in rough water. If
there's any small surf available, try it there. What you'll find is that
adding floatation to the sides of a kayak makes it more likely to be
flipped by steep water.



  #6   Report Post  
Old February 25th 04, 04:26 PM
Brian Nystrom
 
Posts: n/a
Default Whatsamatta Timmah?

Can't come up with anything original to say?

  #7   Report Post  
Old February 26th 04, 12:57 PM
Tim Ingram
 
Posts: n/a
Default Whatsamatta Timmah?

US Coast Guard: Canoe and Kayak Safety, Sponsons, Rescues, Lifesaving,
Deaths
The US Coast Guard website now contains minutes from the National
Boating Safety Advisory Council
regarding "automatic inflating sponsons" to rescue any canoe or kayak,
April and October 2002. About 200 US deaths ago.

A canoe or kayak without sponsons has no safety and no rescue means.
Misleading, deadly, and fraudulent rescues cannot depend on practice.
Rescue and safety must simply work, like seatbelts in cars.

No rescue, no safety for any canoe or kayak (even wearing a PFD, if
the rescue is not timely.)

These "automatic inflating", $50, CO2 Rescue Life Raft Sponsons Cannot
be Marketed Now in the Industry Climate, Sponsored by the US Coast
Guard, Despite the USCG Website.



Note that these "automatic inflating" CO2 gas Sponsons are much larger
(80 lbs. buoyancy, 5 second inflation, and back-up oral inflation).
They are stowed in 2 tiny containers, A in above diagram. These 1 lb.
containers are concealed at the gunwale lines of canoes and kayaks,
and are almost unnoticed, (except for the "EMERGENCY RESCUE" labels),
until capsize or other emergencies. All CO2 sponsons are manufactured
identically to Coast Guard approved PFDs.

But sponsons have a much simpler air bladder and container: A pair of
"automatic inflating sponsons" costs less than $50 US, installed at
the factory. A pair would retail at a price comparable to one
inflatable PFD.

You create a superior lifesaving device that transforms any canoe or
kayak: Capable of saving any drowning victim in the water, not just
any paddler victims! Instead of being an "Accident Waiting to Happen",
any canoe or kayak becomes a superior rescue device! To rescue any
victim who has fallen in the water. Superior in use to any devices now
employed by Rescue Professionals!



This canoe has one sponson deliberately set higher, to ensure maximum
flooding (about 3,000 lbs.). The 7 and 10 year old girls paddle this
canoe at about 2 knots, and can pick up victims in the water from at
least 2 other canoes, like any Life Raft. Set the one sponson properly
(lower), and the canoe is almost entirely self-bailing, by leaning on
one sponson!

This canoe is nearly 18 feet long and weighs 46 lbs. due to carbon
fibre etc. It cost about $1000 US used, at time of purchase (year
2000), after many brutal years as a rental canoe. It will live longer
than me or you. I bought it after my "guide" friend persisted for
several years that I needed it. He was right.

Canoes are remarkable craft. They are the simplest form of watercraft,
and with properly-sized sponsons they are remarkably safe. Safe enough
to be superior in all respects to Professional water and ice rescue
devices (that use sponson technology to safely rescue any victims!)
Kayaks work similarly, but they lack the greater capacity in rescues
of any victims who find themselves in the water.

Now, why would the American Canoe Association (ACA) not try to raise
canoe and kayak sales through rescue and safety applications? They
have deprived 1000 dead Americans (and about 500 dead Canadians) of
their lives since 1993, when all major authors and magazines
recommended sponsons!



This kayaker can wash his hair. These canoes and kayaks normally
inflate CO2 Sponsons while righted but fully flooded, as in capsizing
conditions. However, if upside-down, a sponson, having only 80 lbs.
buoyancy, is easily sunk by 2 little kids or one adult: Self-righting
the canoe or kayak in seconds. The flooded interior makes re-entry
much easier for victims: Much Lower In The Water. And creates powerful
neutral buoyancy ballast, that makes canoes and kayaks more stable
than with sponsons alone.

The heavy canoes and kayaks are then almost invulnerable to capsizing
waves and winds! (Paddled fully flooded over many miles of breaking
seas.)

February 19th, 2004

US Coast Guard and National Boating Safety Advisory Council (NBSAC)
The National Association of State Boating Law Administrators (NASBLA)

1000 US Canoe and Kayak Deaths, Lifesaving Scandal

As you well know, I have documented over 10 years the deaths of about
1000 US citizens, by leaving them in the water to die. This is an area
of concern for the USCG and other law enforcement parties. US Coast
Guard report 071-01: "Canoes and kayaks have by far the highest
fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.42) as any other boat
type". (This figure may be far too low, considering the death
statistics of the Ford/Firestone scandal, over a similar time frame,
with many more vehicles, many, many more use/hours daily, and only 200
deaths.)

"A total of 105 canoeists and kayakers drowned in 1998. Canoes and
kayaks have the highest fatality rate of all boat types ń double the
rate of personal watercraft and 4 times higher than open motorboats."
(Before the Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation of
the U.S. House of Representatives, May 15, 2001, BOAT/U.S.)

The issue, in a nutshell, is that the American Canoe Association (ACA)
sells instruction, and they act as a Washington lobby group to protect
their interests, against the safety of citizens. Not only is their
instruction fraudulently "bait and switch"; they have connnections to
other organizations who would also lose money if canoe and kayak
deaths were greatly reduced.

For example in the ACA commercial magazine:
"All national paddlesports organizations combined comprise just one
percent of committed users and a tenth-percent of the total user
group...To represent paddlers to regulatory agencies with legitimacy,
an organization should represent at least 10 percent of the sport's
committed users...The ACA is the paddlesport organization best placed
....to protect paddlers from paddlecraft registration, required
education and mandated PFD use...protecting our sport from needless
government regulation." (Paddler, Sept./Oct., 2003, p.84)*

Despite this ACA policy to make canoes and kayaks kill as many as
possible, (and the steady decline of canoe/kayak sales over the past 4
years), these ACA criminals are rumoured to be facing "mandated PFD
use" soon, according to a recent US Coast Guard NBSAC decision. This
is good! However, compliance with child PFD use is poor: "nearly 40%
of the children who perished in 2002 were not wearing lifejackets."
(USCG Executive Summary, Recreational Boating Accidents 2002) And 35%
of Dead Canoe/Kayak Victims in 2002 were wearing PFDs, while 32% of
the DEAD wore PFDs in 2000. PFDs cannot magically get victims out of
the water, where they die! So more PFD use, a good idea if somehow
they get out of the water in time, will continue to show years when
more victims die while wearing PFDs (2000) and some years when fewer
die while more of the dead are not wearing PFDs (1999). It depends on
getting out of the water.

* Open canoes are by far the most deadly craft! They make up 75% of
all canoe and kayak deaths in the US and Canada It would make sense
to install "automatic inflating sponsons" on canoes immediately, to
cut all canoe/kayak deaths by more than half immediately! (These
sponsons are discussed on the US Coast Guard website, NBSAC minutes
April, 2002.)

Some USCG officials try to effect change. The National Boating Safety
Advisory Council, that is part of Homeland Security and the US Coast
Guard, has recognized "automatic inflating sponsons for canoes" since
April 2002. (You can see these minutes on the US Coast Guard website
now.)

However there have been about 200 US deaths since then. The dead
victims (104) in 2000 wearing PFDs were 32%, the dead victims (84) in
1999 wearing PFDs were 28%. The dead victims (78) wearing PFDs in 2002
were 35%. PFD use has not affected death statistics since you can have
fewer deaths while not wearing PFDs, and more deaths wearing PFDs!
Obviously Deaths are Not a reflection of PFD use (although this is a
good idea for the most deadly watercraft on the planet.) The USCG BARD
statistics reflect lower canoe/kayak use and sales, and type of
canoe/kayak, corresponding to National Marine Manufacturers
Association (NMMA) stats for types sold. "Looking at the first six
months of each year, the number of kayaks sold has decreased 50
percent from 12,502 in 2001 to 6,216 in 2003." (Paddler, Jan/Feb 2004,
p.8, published by the ACA.)

The wider kayaks and "sit-on-tops", are by far the most popular types
of kayaks according to the National Marine Manufacturers Association,
over ten (10) times more popular than narrow or whitewater types,
(reflecting users' choices, who find narrower craft too unstable).
They are less deadly due to a wider beam. However if flooded, the
"recreational kayaks", unlike the equally popular "sit-on-tops", do
not have built-in sponsons. They cannot be pumped out due to the very
large cockpit opening. The victims die when they cannot get out of the
water (rate of body heat loss is 25 times the rate in air.) PFDs
cannot magically get them out. Furthermore, deaths indicate that the
"sit-on-top" types, that already have built-in sponsons, have
insufficient sponson buoyancy for most victims to rescue themselves
and not recapsize. (Sufficient sponson buoyancy is only possible
through "automatic inflating sponsons" on the USCG website.)

* Note that open canoes are by far the most deadly craft! They
recently killed two Girl Guides. They make up 75% of all canoe and
kayak deaths in the US and Canada (US Coast Guard BARD statistics and
the Lifesaving Society/Red Cross database in Canada.) It would make
sense to install "automatic inflating sponsons" on canoes immediately,
to cut all canoe/kayak deaths by more than half immediately! (These
sponsons are discussed on the US Coast Guard website, NBSAC minutes
April, 2002.)

I have published a short book documenting my 10 years of experience
with the Coast Guards of various countries. I wrote this up in Canoe
and Kayak Scam Kills 1000 Americans: US Coast Guard Studies Device to
Save Victims paste in address bar of browser if link doesn't work:
http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/16818)

This link includes the recent US Coast Guard study of the CO2
"automatic inflating sponsons" for kayaks and canoes. This is an
Enron-type Scam, although there is no large money from instruction.
This casts some idea of the motivation for deadly "rescues". There is
plenty of "macho" ego, regarding instruction that no judge or jury can
accomplish. There are however, plentiful arguments that the victims
deserved to die, as a Darwinian perspective.

I have thousands of pages of correspondence with the Coast Guards of
the US and other countries. Ironically, the sales of canoes and kayaks
have declined steadily over 4 years. There is no attempt to sell these
craft through safety, like any other consumer product. This is a
public safety anomaly, to say the least.

Instruction dollars for bogus safety continues despite thousands of
emails to the US Coast Guard and other law enforcement bodies in the
US. This is an Enron-type "bait and switch" scam; however, it has the
highest death rate in US history (over 15 times the death rate of the
Ford/Firestone scandal.) But these deaths have not stopped! They
continue, unlike Ford/Firestone.

Lifesaving Scandal

There is simply no equivalent in the 20th century or the 19th century
regarding this extremely high death rate. Death Rates one could only
expect through deliberate anti-safety and anti-social policies.
Compa 11,000 British sailors dead in overloaded and heavily insured
ships 1879-1899, in the largest merchant marine in the world. This is
1 sailor in 60 dying violently in water; in mining, same period, 1
dead miner in 315, both over a lifetime of exposure. Good thing that
canoes and kayaks are a small and declining US industry! And that
people don't canoe and kayak very often, since drowning deaths,
despite PFDs are far, far greater than for any other boat type!

The US Coast Guard has created this scandal by funding the deadly ACA
instruction scam. Without USCG funding and encouragement to kill, the
ACA and other instruction groups would not have any credibility or
power!

Recently, I was able to document about 10 "killers" within the NASBLA.
ACA killers Virgil Chambers and Pam Dillon were actually given NASBLA
"safety" awards 10 years ago, when the original sponsons were first
marketed to save lives. ACA Gordon Black and ACA Kent Ford also murder
US citizens for tiny amounts of money, compared to Enron. At least
Enron was not a murdering, profit-making corporation!

I shall keep this short. The reality is that these carefully
constructed pieces of documentation will save lives, and also shed
light on the power of tiny and poor lobby groups (that are totally
unrepresentative of users, but make money by killing them, as in the
above Paddler quote); through tricking organizations as large as the
USCG, who legislate lifesaving measures in the US.

I am grateful for your help in saving lives. It is absurdly simple!
Give people a means to get out of the water and they don't die!
City waterfronts have buoyant, lifesaving objects available to save
anyone. (Most people don't stroll wearing a PFD!) For a thousand years
buoyant objects have saved human lives. But canoes and kayaks are
denied a simple, inexpensive, and obvious means to get out of the
water in 2004! Why have ambulances or even Coast Guards, if the
simplest form of watercraft is allowed to murder children and their
parents at a rate never before seen in history! This death rate is so
simply remedied that eventually, criminal charges are certain.

In Canada, the death rate is much higher than the US, thanks to the
Canadian Coast Guard covering up a study by a Canadian Search and
Rescue Officer who found exactly the same sponson safety reported by
the US Military Special Forces Kayaking Study (10th Airborne) in 1994.
Result: About 500 Canadian canoe and kayak deaths.

This study and others will stand with "Hitler's Willing Executioners"
and Milgram's studies at Yale, regarding the darker aspects of
humanity. You simply have no other instances of such a high death
rate, easily remedied, by such a small "murder cult". I repeat what I
stated above: "There is plenty of "macho" ego, regarding instruction
that no judge or jury can accomplish. There are however, plentiful
arguments that the victims deserved to die, as a Darwinian
perspective."

I am an US citizen (born in Pennsylvania), as well as a Canadian.

Yours truly,

Tim Ingram
231 Gordon Drive
Penetanguishene, Ontario
Canada L9M 1Y2
phone: (705) 549-3722



These little girls can quickly rescue a half dozen adults from the
water, since the adults weigh just about the same as their immersed
volume in water. This canoe cannot sink totally flooded! Police and
other RESCUE PROFESSIONALS use sponsons to create devices that are
smaller and less mobile, to rescue victims in tricky water and ice
rescues. Canoes are superior rescue craft with proper self-rescue
sponsons: Paddled easily at 2 knots fully flooded, by 2 kids standing
up. Set the far sponson in the above picture properly (lower), and the
canoe is almost entirely self-bailing by leaning on one sponson!

Canoes (and kayaks too), can save many lives, not just kill! Why kill
1000 US citizens in 10 years? Who gains from those cruel and easily
preventable deaths?

Links:
http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/index.html
http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/index.html

Email:

or



or



Thank You

Brian Nystrom wrote in message ...
Can't come up with anything original to say?

  #8   Report Post  
Old February 26th 04, 03:22 PM
Brian Nystrom
 
Posts: n/a
Default Whatsamatta Timmah?

Can't come up with anything original to say?

I guess not.

  #9   Report Post  
Old February 26th 04, 04:20 PM
Matt Langenfeld
 
Posts: n/a
Default Whatsamatta Timmah?

Tim,

You product has some valid application. It's a lot like the type of
lifevests that inflate automatically upon being submerged in the water.

But repeating the same info and doing so in such an aggressive manner
only takes away your credibility and makes comsumers trust you less. Let
your product quality speak for itself.

  #10   Report Post  
Old February 27th 04, 05:08 PM
Brian Nystrom
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you actually think he cares?

He's a nut, plain and simple.



Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Canoe and kayak safety Chris Kelly General 18 October 3rd 03 04:09 PM
sponsons really work! (BS) Craig Smerda General 70 September 16th 03 10:05 PM
Canoe & Kayak Scams Kills 1,000 Americans Bobo General 55 September 4th 03 02:55 PM
Saving drunken fishermen with sponsons! John Q Adams General 4 September 2nd 03 12:34 AM
Challenge to Timmy, If your sponsons are really so good… The Kern River General 0 August 22nd 03 01:24 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:54 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2021 BoatBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Boats"

 

Copyright © 2017