thanks for the interesting comments. on the Usenet people tend to write
from a very personal perspective. I think people are expecting too much of
this paddler. New to kayaks but not to paddling or boatbuilding. Concieved
in a canoe. Born in a canoe, Suckled in a canoe. Weaned in a canoe. Cut my
teeth on a canoe gunwale. I did note my paddling is limited to day trips
on local water of which there is quite a variety. Someone wrote
"birdwatching". That would be close.

on the topic of lessons, there's been quite a heated debate in the local
Ottawa paddling newsgroup ott.rec.canoe-kayak. I'm on the "no lessons" side
of the discussion.


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"William R. Watt" wrote:

on the topic of lessons, there's been quite a heated debate in the local
Ottawa paddling newsgroup ott.rec.canoe-kayak. I'm on the "no lessons" side
of the discussion.

That's an interesting position for a novice kayaker to take. Whether to seek
instruction or not largely depends on how long you want to take to learn and how
much you want to learn. You can teach yourself some skills from books, but you can
learn much faster with instruction. Some techniques are nearly impossible to
describe adequately in print.

"Instruction" doesn't necessarily mean "professional instruction". Many clubs
offer free or low-cost instruction or "skills sessions" which can dramatically
shorten your learning curve.

--
Regards

Brian

Brian Nystrom ) writes:
"William R. Watt" wrote:

on the topic of lessons, there's been quite a heated debate in the local
Ottawa paddling newsgroup ott.rec.canoe-kayak. I'm on the "no lessons" side
of the discussion.

That's an interesting position for a novice kayaker to take. Whether to seek
instruction or not largely depends on how long you want to take to learn and how
much you want to learn. You can teach yourself some skills from books, but you can
learn much faster with instruction. Some techniques are nearly impossible to
describe adequately in print.

"Instruction" doesn't necessarily mean "professional instruction". Many clubs
offer free or low-cost instruction or "skills sessions" which can dramatically
shorten your learning curve.

I agree. That has been my basic position in the discussion. In addition to
your suggestions I've been saying that those of us with webbed feet who
grew up partially immersed in water learned from our families and by trial
and error. I also make the point that lessons can give you knowledge but
only practice gives you skill and experience. Knowlege is available from
many sources.

However "professional's" in the discussion maintain that most paddlers are
some kind of dummies who need to buy lessons and go on guided trips.
Perhaps the dummies gravitate toward professional paddlers and that's all
they see. I also suspect a lot of professional paddlers came up through
their own kind of system and know no other.
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a few more impressions ...

Tonight I paddled a 19 ft kayak but it did not have any cargo so
it sat high and was light and unstable. The sales rep said the
only way to try one of these multi-day trip kayaks is to rent one,
load it up, and paddle it around for a day or two. He gave me a
sales booklet of specs for the kayaks his store sells. Only some
of them listed load capacity. Others just stated the internal
volume. None showed the design draft or the immersion per unit
load above that. These are numbers hull design programs spit out.
They should be in the specifications for purchasers on load
carrying boats.

On the way to the beach today I visited two of the sporting goods
stores who are participating in the evening demonstrations. The
stores had a bunch of kayaks up on racks where I was able to look
over the hulls, especailly the bottoms. I was surprized to see one
of the chined boats had a convexity in a flat panel. This was in a
new boat that had never been used. I was also suprized to see a
hull distorted by a bulkhead. I didn't even need to my hand over
the hull to feel for it it. It stood out visibly like the
proverbial sore thunmb. I know enough about boatbuilding to
realize the repetitive strain boats take as waves pass under the
hull disorting the weak ones and breaking down the material they
are made of, saying nothing of loss of performance. On some
sailboats bulkheads do not come in direct contact with the hull
but are cushioned by a foam insert to prevent hard spots. After
seeing these kayaks in the stores I'd choose a round bottom hull
because it would be less likely to have weak spots.

The next thing I'd like to try is climbing back into (or onto) different
kayaks to see which ones are easiest to re-enter.

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"William R. Watt" wrote:

a few more impressions ...

Tonight I paddled a 19 ft kayak but it did not have any cargo so
it sat high and was light and unstable. The sales rep said the
only way to try one of these multi-day trip kayaks is to rent one,
load it up, and paddle it around for a day or two.

There are a lot of "barges" on the market and surprisingly, they sell well,
despite the fact that most people who buy them will never do an expedition. It's
probably due to the same reasons that people buy SUV's, the "bigger is better"
mentality, "just in case" and delusions of grandeur. Most people would be better
off with a lower volume day boat...and a small, fuel efficient car.

He gave me a
sales booklet of specs for the kayaks his store sells. Only some
of them listed load capacity. Others just stated the internal
volume. None showed the design draft or the immersion per unit
load above that. These are numbers hull design programs spit out.
They should be in the specifications for purchasers on load
carrying boats.

Most people wouldn't understand these numbers, so they're rarely published.

On the way to the beach today I visited two of the sporting goods
stores who are participating in the evening demonstrations. The
stores had a bunch of kayaks up on racks where I was able to look
over the hulls, especailly the bottoms. I was surprized to see one
of the chined boats had a convexity in a flat panel. This was in a
new boat that had never been used. I was also suprized to see a
hull distorted by a bulkhead. I didn't even need to my hand over
the hull to feel for it it. It stood out visibly like the
proverbial sore thunmb.

If you were looking at plastic boats, that's typical. There are a few out there
that use better materials that are more distortion resistant (Prijon, P&H), but
most polyethylene hulls will distort due to heat and/or pressure. They will
usually return to shape if left out in the sun.

I know enough about boatbuilding to
realize the repetitive strain boats take as waves pass under the
hull disorting the weak ones and breaking down the material they
are made of, saying nothing of loss of performance.

Polyethylene doesn't break down with repetitive stress, but it does flex.
Composite hulls are stiffer.

On some
sailboats bulkheads do not come in direct contact with the hull
but are cushioned by a foam insert to prevent hard spots.

Some kayaks use foam bulkheads, for the same reason. However, it's not as much of
a problem as some people would lead you to believe. My boats get used hard and
banged around quite a bit and I have yet to have a problem due to a hard bulkhead.

After
seeing these kayaks in the stores I'd choose a round bottom hull
because it would be less likely to have weak spots.

That's not an issue with a well-made boat. Choose the boat that fits you best and
handles the way you want, and ignore the hull shape. Kayak performance is
dependent on far more than hull cross-section shape.

The next thing I'd like to try is climbing back into (or onto) different
kayaks to see which ones are easiest to re-enter.

There's a lot of variation there, too. Personally, I prefer to concentrate on how
the boat works on the water, since that's where I am 99%+ of the time. I find
small cockpits to offer increased control and security, despite the fact that I'
6' tall.

--
Regards

Brian

Brian Nystrom ) writes:
Most people wouldn't understand these numbers, so they're rarely published.

what the sales literature had were vague statements like "for weekends" or
"for multi-day trips". I think they should be more spacific and say "this
boat is designed to perform best with a load between 250 and 500 lbs". I
don't see the value of interior volume since its more important to know
how much the boat will float the size of what it will hold. Room sizes are
more appropriate to buying houses which don't have to float their
contents.

If you were looking at plastic boats, that's typical. There are a few out there
that use better materials that are more distortion resistant (Prijon, P&H), but
most polyethylene hulls will distort due to heat and/or pressure. They will
usually return to shape if left out in the sun.

I was careful to distinguish between design weakness and temporary
distortion. I've seek a kayak come off a trailer after a long trip with a
big dent in the side which will strighten out. No, the flat spot on the
chined boat was due to the material being too thin. Housing standards
specify the span beteen joists for plywood of a given thickness. There are
similar standards for boats from insurance associations and naval
architects (eg military), and guidelines such as David Gerr's "Elements of
Boat Strength" of which our public library has a copy. The hull design
programs I've seen don't cover "scantlings", but do cover a lot of
other things like shape, initial stability, capacity, resistance, etc.




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"William R. Watt" wrote:

Brian Nystrom ) writes:
Most people wouldn't understand these numbers, so they're rarely published.

what the sales literature had were vague statements like "for weekends" or
"for multi-day trips". I think they should be more spacific and say "this
boat is designed to perform best with a load between 250 and 500 lbs". I
don't see the value of interior volume since its more important to know
how much the boat will float the size of what it will hold. Room sizes are
more appropriate to buying houses which don't have to float their
contents.

I don't disagree with you, but what they're doing is catering to the market.
Categories such as those you mention are useful for the average person who's trying
to figure out what boat suits their needs. Carrying capacity is commonly published,
but moreso for higher-end boats. It's also easily misinterpreted. Is it the designed
cargo weight? Is it the weight at which the boat submerges? How much of a safety
margin is built in? Etc, etc. If the manufacturer provides enough detail, it can be a
useful number to know.

If you were looking at plastic boats, that's typical. There are a few out there
that use better materials that are more distortion resistant (Prijon, P&H), but
most polyethylene hulls will distort due to heat and/or pressure. They will
usually return to shape if left out in the sun.

I was careful to distinguish between design weakness and temporary
distortion. I've seek a kayak come off a trailer after a long trip with a
big dent in the side which will strighten out. No, the flat spot on the
chined boat was due to the material being too thin. Housing standards
specify the span beteen joists for plywood of a given thickness. There are
similar standards for boats from insurance associations and naval
architects (eg military), and guidelines such as David Gerr's "Elements of
Boat Strength" of which our public library has a copy. The hull design
programs I've seen don't cover "scantlings", but do cover a lot of
other things like shape, initial stability, capacity, resistance, etc.

There are several kayak companies that are notorious for making flimsy hulls. For
them, it's all about marketing and not about performannce, though in some cases, the
problem is limited to specific models, typically short, wide, low-end boats. It's
good that you picked up on this.

--
Regards

Brian

William R. Watt wrote:
on the topic of lessons, there's been quite a heated debate in the
local Ottawa paddling newsgroup ott.rec.canoe-kayak. I'm on the "no
lessons" side of the discussion.

Sit-on-tops probably make that more possible (and responsible) than was
possible in the past.

(William R. Watt) typed:

on the topic of lessons, there's been quite a heated debate in the local
Ottawa paddling newsgroup ott.rec.canoe-kayak. I'm on the "no lessons" side
of the discussion.

That's fascinating. Would you mind posting some of the rationales for
deliberately attempting a difficult and mildly dangerous activity
incompetantly? I'd be really interested to read about 'em.

Personally, I am sooooooo grateful to those (the late Roger Corbett
first amongst them chronologically, and Bob Foote first amongst them
in terms of skill and professionalism) who taught the classes I took
almost annually for ten years. The fact that I now border upon
skillful has *so* enhanced the enjoyment I get from boating!

--
-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty

PS, if you talk to Parham, please tell him to eMail me!

================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rhople[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters.
================================================== ====================

Oci-One Kanubi ) writes:
(William R. Watt) typed:

on the topic of lessons, there's been quite a heated debate in the local
Ottawa paddling newsgroup ott.rec.canoe-kayak. I'm on the "no lessons" side
of the discussion.

That's fascinating. Would you mind posting some of the rationales for
deliberately attempting a difficult and mildly dangerous activity
incompetantly? I'd be really interested to read about 'em.

where do you get that "incompetently". absence of paid instruction is not
incompetence. I give you thousands of years of native experience paddling
canoes and kayaks before the advent of paid instructors, as well as
hundreds of years of canoe experience by white explorers, fur traders,
trappers, propsectors, guides, hunters and fishermen. Well known paddlers
like Bill Mason and Eric Morse taught themselves to paddle in all kinds of
conditions.



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