Oci-One Kanubi ) writes:
(William R. Watt) typed:

on the topic of lessons, there's been quite a heated debate in the local
Ottawa paddling newsgroup ott.rec.canoe-kayak. I'm on the "no lessons" side
of the discussion.

That's fascinating. Would you mind posting some of the rationales for
deliberately attempting a difficult and mildly dangerous activity
incompetantly? I'd be really interested to read about 'em.

where do you get that "incompetently". absence of paid instruction is not
incompetence. I give you thousands of years of native experience paddling
canoes and kayaks before the advent of paid instructors, as well as
hundreds of years of canoe experience by white explorers, fur traders,
trappers, propsectors, guides, hunters and fishermen. Well known paddlers
like Bill Mason and Eric Morse taught themselves to paddle in all kinds of
conditions.



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a few more impressions ...

Tonight I paddled a 19 ft kayak but it did not have any cargo so
it sat high and was light and unstable. The sales rep said the
only way to try one of these multi-day trip kayaks is to rent one,
load it up, and paddle it around for a day or two. He gave me a
sales booklet of specs for the kayaks his store sells. Only some
of them listed load capacity. Others just stated the internal
volume. None showed the design draft or the immersion per unit
load above that. These are numbers hull design programs spit out.
They should be in the specifications for purchasers on load
carrying boats.

On the way to the beach today I visited two of the sporting goods
stores who are participating in the evening demonstrations. The
stores had a bunch of kayaks up on racks where I was able to look
over the hulls, especailly the bottoms. I was surprized to see one
of the chined boats had a convexity in a flat panel. This was in a
new boat that had never been used. I was also suprized to see a
hull distorted by a bulkhead. I didn't even need to my hand over
the hull to feel for it it. It stood out visibly like the
proverbial sore thunmb. I know enough about boatbuilding to
realize the repetitive strain boats take as waves pass under the
hull disorting the weak ones and breaking down the material they
are made of, saying nothing of loss of performance. On some
sailboats bulkheads do not come in direct contact with the hull
but are cushioned by a foam insert to prevent hard spots. After
seeing these kayaks in the stores I'd choose a round bottom hull
because it would be less likely to have weak spots.

The next thing I'd like to try is climbing back into (or onto) different
kayaks to see which ones are easiest to re-enter.

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"William R. Watt" wrote:

a few more impressions ...

Tonight I paddled a 19 ft kayak but it did not have any cargo so
it sat high and was light and unstable. The sales rep said the
only way to try one of these multi-day trip kayaks is to rent one,
load it up, and paddle it around for a day or two.

There are a lot of "barges" on the market and surprisingly, they sell well,
despite the fact that most people who buy them will never do an expedition. It's
probably due to the same reasons that people buy SUV's, the "bigger is better"
mentality, "just in case" and delusions of grandeur. Most people would be better
off with a lower volume day boat...and a small, fuel efficient car.

He gave me a
sales booklet of specs for the kayaks his store sells. Only some
of them listed load capacity. Others just stated the internal
volume. None showed the design draft or the immersion per unit
load above that. These are numbers hull design programs spit out.
They should be in the specifications for purchasers on load
carrying boats.

Most people wouldn't understand these numbers, so they're rarely published.

On the way to the beach today I visited two of the sporting goods
stores who are participating in the evening demonstrations. The
stores had a bunch of kayaks up on racks where I was able to look
over the hulls, especailly the bottoms. I was surprized to see one
of the chined boats had a convexity in a flat panel. This was in a
new boat that had never been used. I was also suprized to see a
hull distorted by a bulkhead. I didn't even need to my hand over
the hull to feel for it it. It stood out visibly like the
proverbial sore thunmb.

If you were looking at plastic boats, that's typical. There are a few out there
that use better materials that are more distortion resistant (Prijon, P&H), but
most polyethylene hulls will distort due to heat and/or pressure. They will
usually return to shape if left out in the sun.

I know enough about boatbuilding to
realize the repetitive strain boats take as waves pass under the
hull disorting the weak ones and breaking down the material they
are made of, saying nothing of loss of performance.

Polyethylene doesn't break down with repetitive stress, but it does flex.
Composite hulls are stiffer.

On some
sailboats bulkheads do not come in direct contact with the hull
but are cushioned by a foam insert to prevent hard spots.

Some kayaks use foam bulkheads, for the same reason. However, it's not as much of
a problem as some people would lead you to believe. My boats get used hard and
banged around quite a bit and I have yet to have a problem due to a hard bulkhead.

After
seeing these kayaks in the stores I'd choose a round bottom hull
because it would be less likely to have weak spots.

That's not an issue with a well-made boat. Choose the boat that fits you best and
handles the way you want, and ignore the hull shape. Kayak performance is
dependent on far more than hull cross-section shape.

The next thing I'd like to try is climbing back into (or onto) different
kayaks to see which ones are easiest to re-enter.

There's a lot of variation there, too. Personally, I prefer to concentrate on how
the boat works on the water, since that's where I am 99%+ of the time. I find
small cockpits to offer increased control and security, despite the fact that I'
6' tall.

--
Regards

Brian

Brian Nystrom ) writes:
Most people wouldn't understand these numbers, so they're rarely published.

what the sales literature had were vague statements like "for weekends" or
"for multi-day trips". I think they should be more spacific and say "this
boat is designed to perform best with a load between 250 and 500 lbs". I
don't see the value of interior volume since its more important to know
how much the boat will float the size of what it will hold. Room sizes are
more appropriate to buying houses which don't have to float their
contents.

If you were looking at plastic boats, that's typical. There are a few out there
that use better materials that are more distortion resistant (Prijon, P&H), but
most polyethylene hulls will distort due to heat and/or pressure. They will
usually return to shape if left out in the sun.

I was careful to distinguish between design weakness and temporary
distortion. I've seek a kayak come off a trailer after a long trip with a
big dent in the side which will strighten out. No, the flat spot on the
chined boat was due to the material being too thin. Housing standards
specify the span beteen joists for plywood of a given thickness. There are
similar standards for boats from insurance associations and naval
architects (eg military), and guidelines such as David Gerr's "Elements of
Boat Strength" of which our public library has a copy. The hull design
programs I've seen don't cover "scantlings", but do cover a lot of
other things like shape, initial stability, capacity, resistance, etc.




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William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
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One of my fave books has a part where the main character has a hairy
moment while climbing a cliff. He gets himself out of it, and then
thinks -- not, "Damn, I'm good," or "Whoa, I kicked that cliff's
ass!", but, "All praise to my teachers." I really like that line.

My experience was somewhat different and also using climbing to judge
kayaking off is always a bad idea. Kayaking is endlessly dynamic and
climbing is only sporadically dynamic. My early impressions of kayaking
and paddling white water and getting into and out of trouble was usually
"What the hell happened there" not "Damn I'm good" or "I kicked that
rapids butt" (Well I would never use that strange language!). Mind you
when I started out kayaking we a bunch of school kids would head down to
the canal and play in the kayaks and gradually learn things. I remember
learning to roll - the group of us were trying to workout how it was
done, none of could and only two had seen anyone else roll, it took
several weeks!!! AN instructor would have sped up this no end but we
would not have had so much fun!

This is not an argument for everyone receiving professional instruction
because there are too many professional instructors who do it as a job
and have as much interest in their job as the counter staff at Maccie
D's! This is why I have never been a professional instructor I would
rather keep my hobby as a hobby and not make it my job.
--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk

"William R. Watt" wrote:

Brian Nystrom ) writes:
Most people wouldn't understand these numbers, so they're rarely published.

what the sales literature had were vague statements like "for weekends" or
"for multi-day trips". I think they should be more spacific and say "this
boat is designed to perform best with a load between 250 and 500 lbs". I
don't see the value of interior volume since its more important to know
how much the boat will float the size of what it will hold. Room sizes are
more appropriate to buying houses which don't have to float their
contents.

I don't disagree with you, but what they're doing is catering to the market.
Categories such as those you mention are useful for the average person who's trying
to figure out what boat suits their needs. Carrying capacity is commonly published,
but moreso for higher-end boats. It's also easily misinterpreted. Is it the designed
cargo weight? Is it the weight at which the boat submerges? How much of a safety
margin is built in? Etc, etc. If the manufacturer provides enough detail, it can be a
useful number to know.

If you were looking at plastic boats, that's typical. There are a few out there
that use better materials that are more distortion resistant (Prijon, P&H), but
most polyethylene hulls will distort due to heat and/or pressure. They will
usually return to shape if left out in the sun.

I was careful to distinguish between design weakness and temporary
distortion. I've seek a kayak come off a trailer after a long trip with a
big dent in the side which will strighten out. No, the flat spot on the
chined boat was due to the material being too thin. Housing standards
specify the span beteen joists for plywood of a given thickness. There are
similar standards for boats from insurance associations and naval
architects (eg military), and guidelines such as David Gerr's "Elements of
Boat Strength" of which our public library has a copy. The hull design
programs I've seen don't cover "scantlings", but do cover a lot of
other things like shape, initial stability, capacity, resistance, etc.

There are several kayak companies that are notorious for making flimsy hulls. For
them, it's all about marketing and not about performannce, though in some cases, the
problem is limited to specific models, typically short, wide, low-end boats. It's
good that you picked up on this.

--
Regards

Brian

Dave Manby ) writes:

when I started out kayaking we a bunch of school kids would head down to
the canal and play in the kayaks and gradually learn things. I remember
learning to roll - the group of us were trying to workout how it was
done, none of could and only two had seen anyone else roll, it took
several weeks!!! AN instructor would have sped up this no end but we
would not have had so much fun!

the beach where I've been hanging out is just upstream from a favourite
rapids on the river. guys come to the beach to teach their girlfriends
how to roll a white water kayak. I've watched them enough to know how its
done. I just need to try it in a boat.

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