I had never paddled a kayak when I got the opportunity to try
paddling some courtesy of local sporting goods stores who were
giving free demonstrations at a local public beach. Over three
evenings I paddled 14 dfferent kayaks. They were all what I'd call
general puropse kayaks. There were none for white water or long
trips.

I found it easy to paddle a kayak the first time. You have to
wedge yourself in by bracing your feet on peddals and in decked
kayaks your knees under the deck. Then its just a matter of
swinging the double bladed paddle as if you were swimming. I've
done a lot of swimming so it came naturally. I was able to paddle
at full power right from the start.

All the kayaks save one were fast and efficent for their size. The
theory of hull resistance has been pretty well worked out. There
are computer programs you can buy which will do the computations
and print out the numbers for the hull shape. The one bad kayak I
paddled was noisy and left trubultent water in its wake. The
others all went through the water cleanly.

Some of the longer boats didn't manouver very well. Some had to an
extra piece on the back, either a skeg or a rudder, to help them
go straight or to turn. These were supposed to be raised an
lowered by a thin line but many didn't work well. Some stuck. One
had no stopper on the line which dropped in the water and trailed
behind. I had to to twist around and fish it out with the paddle.
That took a few attempts. On all but one the line was held in a
small hook or cleat which was not easy to use. You can't turn fast
with the skeg or rudder down. If you want to turn fast you first
have to raise the skeg or rudder with the line, then use the
paddle and body to turn the boat. That's pretty slow. One of the
boats with a rudder must have had sand in the works. It was hard
to push the peddals to turn the rudder. I could feel the grit
grinding in the works.

There must not be a computer program for the best way to build a
lightweight but strong and rigid kayak because there was a lot of
variation in the longer decked kayaks. The sexier boats with fine
entries and flat bottoms were the least rigid. The bottoms flexed
up and down. Some boats had a piece of pipe from one end to the
other to make them rigid. Another had a brace between the top and
bottom which you had to put your legs around. Others had ridges on
the inside. The boats with rounder bottoms and rounder decks were
more rigid and had less extra bracing. All of the boats were light
for their size. The longest was 15 feet. Any I tried to lift I
could do so with one hand.

There was a lot of variation in comfort and convenience among the
kayaks. After a while my preference was for a roomy cockpit in a
boat wide enough I could twist around in and look back, or get
something out of the rear compartment if the boat had one. One
boat was so narrow I tipped it over trying to get in. Another was
so wide I couldn't brace my feet and knees on the inside. In
one my knees were braced on the side of the kneecaps. That was
very uncomfortable. I think getting a kayak is like getting a suit
of clothes. Fit is important. One thing I would look for is a seat
high enough to support the back. Only two or three of the 14
kayaks had a seat which provided good support above the hips.

Some of the kayaks were sit on top models and others were sit
inside models. My overall impression was that the sit on top
kayaks were the most successful designs for performance and
comfort. They were also lower priced because they are simpler to
make. They come right out of the mold ready for sale, only
requiring sufficient labour cost to screw on handles at the ends.
However, the sit on top models offered no protection from wind,
waves, or sun. None had waterproof storage. In fact they are so
wet I would wear a bathing suit. One had drain holes which let in
water. I would avoid paddling in questionable water. They would be
fun to use at the beach. My preference would be for a kayak which
had a dry place to keep a camera and some food. I like to drive
out in the country and spend the day exploring local waters.

One evening there was wind and small waves with whitecaps. I
had fun bashing through the waves. All of the kayaks I paddled
let in spray and became wet. During the three evenings I tried
paddling kayaks I never got into a dry one. We all seemed to get
water into the kayaks even when there was no wind or waves.
Perhaps that was because most of the people trying out the
demonstration kayaks were inexperineced novices liek myself. It
was like sitting in a shower stall. I'd wear a bathing suit or use
a spray skirt. I wonder how hot it would be in a kayak with a
spray skirt without any ventilation.

So far my personal preference in one of these kayaks would be a
long wide one with a rounded bottom, roomy cockpit, high seat, dry
storage accessable afloat, and no skeg or rudder. These weeknight
demonstrations continue throughout the summer so I hope to try
more boats.

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So far my personal preference in one of these kayaks would be a
long wide one with a rounded bottom, roomy cockpit, high seat, dry
storage accessable afloat, and no skeg or rudder. These weeknight
demonstrations continue throughout the summer so I hope to try
more boats.

I'm assuming this long post was for the purpose of sharing your thoughts, I
really didn't see any questions in there.

My only bit of advise would be consider what you want to do with the boat in
three (3) years? Don't buy a boat based on what you like or feel
comfortable in now, because I guarantee you won't be happy with it in 2
years. Most new kayakers want "initial stability" while more experienced
kayakers would quickly trade off initial stability in favor of "secondary
stability". Your comment about wanting a "long wide" boat will come back to
haunt you someday, I assure you. (unless of course, you are a bird watcher,
photographer with no need for speed).

Welcome to the sport!

Wade

Congrats on your first kayaking experience! Here are a ffew comments:

(William R. Watt) writes:

[snip]
I found it easy to paddle a kayak the first time. You have to
wedge yourself in by bracing your feet on peddals and in decked
kayaks your knees under the deck. Then its just a matter of
swinging the double bladed paddle as if you were swimming. I've
done a lot of swimming so it came naturally. I was able to paddle
at full power right from the start.

If you paddle for longer periods of time and for longer distances,
you'll no doubt discover that there's a bit more to it...just like
swimming long distances.

All the kayaks save one were fast and efficent for their size. The
theory of hull resistance has been pretty well worked out. There
are computer programs you can buy which will do the computations
and print out the numbers for the hull shape. The one bad kayak I
paddled was noisy and left trubultent water in its wake. The
others all went through the water cleanly.

"General purpose" kayaks are designed to do an adequate job of many
things, but optimal hull performance isn't at the top of the list.
Out of curiosity, what was the "bad" boat?

Some of the longer boats didn't manouver very well. Some had to an
extra piece on the back, either a skeg or a rudder, to help them
go straight or to turn.

Maneuvering and tracking -- turning when you want to turn, and going
straight when you want to go straight -- are skills that kayakers
all need to learn how to do. It's an oversimplification, but in
general, when you try to optimize a boat for maneuvering, you're
likely going to sacrifice some tracking ability, and vice versa.
Unlike a sailboat rudder, the rudder in a kayak is not there to
help you turn the boat, but to stay on course and counter the boat's
tendency to weathercock. Turning is accomplished with paddling
strokes and techniques.

There must not be a computer program for the best way to build a
lightweight but strong and rigid kayak because there was a lot of
variation in the longer decked kayaks.

Well...is there a computer program to build the best car? No,
because people use them for different things. Lightweight is good,
but lightweight materials cost more and are less durable. There are
tradeoffs, and a designere has to prioritize based on what the
boat's supposed to do. The boat you want for splashing around on
the pond near your house is probably not the boa you want for ocean
crossings, or for a 10-day self-supported wilderness trip.

There was a lot of variation in comfort and convenience among the
kayaks. After a while my preference was for a roomy cockpit in a
boat wide enough I could twist around in and look back, or get
something out of the rear compartment if the boat had one. One
boat was so narrow I tipped it over trying to get in. Another was
so wide I couldn't brace my feet and knees on the inside. In
one my knees were braced on the side of the kneecaps. That was
very uncomfortable. I think getting a kayak is like getting a suit
of clothes. Fit is important. One thing I would look for is a seat
high enough to support the back. Only two or three of the 14
kayaks had a seat which provided good support above the hips.

A rigid seat isn't necessary for lower back support -- a good
backband will do the job. As for the rest of the outfitting,
beginners typically find a kayak very confining at first, and want a
real roomy boat. This preference usually changes pretty quickly,
though. You paddle a kayak with your body, and if it's loose, your
paddling is much less efficient and effective. Also, being able to
turn around to get things out of the back is...well, if it's what
you want, it's what you want. But to have a boat that's roomy AND
stable enough to do this without flipping fairly frequently, you'll
be giving up a lot in other areas. Most kayakers either get to
shore before opening a compartment, or get a buddy to do it for
them. It's a bit risky doing it yourself because it's easy to lose
gear and get water in the compartment.

Some of the kayaks were sit on top models and others were sit
inside models. My overall impression was that the sit on top
kayaks were the most successful designs for performance and
comfort.

It's most successful for you if it's what you want. I don't think
that SOTs tend to do very well performance-wise, when compared with
decked boats. But it may be that that was true of the set of boats
you paddled.

They were also lower priced because they are simpler to
make. They come right out of the mold ready for sale, only
requiring sufficient labour cost to screw on handles at the ends.
However, the sit on top models offered no protection from wind,
waves, or sun. None had waterproof storage. In fact they are so
wet I would wear a bathing suit. One had drain holes which let in
water.

Those holes also let the water out. Overall, that boat will
probably be drier to paddle than a SOT that doesn't have drain
holes.

I would avoid paddling in questionable water. They would be
fun to use at the beach. My preference would be for a kayak which
had a dry place to keep a camera and some food. I like to drive
out in the country and spend the day exploring local waters.

Get a decked boat, then. But be aware that you'll probably never
find a boat with a compartment that's absolutely dry. That's why we
carry drybags.

One evening there was wind and small waves with whitecaps. I
had fun bashing through the waves. All of the kayaks I paddled
let in spray and became wet. During the three evenings I tried
paddling kayaks I never got into a dry one. We all seemed to get
water into the kayaks even when there was no wind or waves.
Perhaps that was because most of the people trying out the
demonstration kayaks were inexperineced novices liek myself. It
was like sitting in a shower stall. I'd wear a bathing suit or use
a spray skirt. I wonder how hot it would be in a kayak with a
spray skirt without any ventilation.

That's a big "it depends". I'm mostly a whitewater kayaker, so my
skirt is on all the time. I rarely get too warm, and when I do, I
roll. Paddling in the blazing sun, without the ability to roll,
could be pretty hot and nasty. But kayaking is a wet sport, and a
skirt is what's needed to minimize (not eliminate) the wetness.
When kayaking, you do need to dress for the assumption that you will
be in the water.

So far my personal preference in one of these kayaks would be a
long wide one with a rounded bottom, roomy cockpit, high seat, dry
storage accessable afloat, and no skeg or rudder.

Yup, pretty common beginner preferences -- and ones that most
beginners seem to outgrow quickly. If John Fereira is around, maybe
he'll have something to add about this. Suggestion: don't just go
to the demos, but take a class. You'll learn some technique that
will help you to develop some preferences and evaluate in a
systematic manner.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

thanks for the interesting comments. on the Usenet people tend to write
from a very personal perspective. I think people are expecting too much of
this paddler. New to kayaks but not to paddling or boatbuilding. Concieved
in a canoe. Born in a canoe, Suckled in a canoe. Weaned in a canoe. Cut my
teeth on a canoe gunwale. I did note my paddling is limited to day trips
on local water of which there is quite a variety. Someone wrote
"birdwatching". That would be close.

on the topic of lessons, there's been quite a heated debate in the local
Ottawa paddling newsgroup ott.rec.canoe-kayak. I'm on the "no lessons" side
of the discussion.


--
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"William R. Watt" wrote:

on the topic of lessons, there's been quite a heated debate in the local
Ottawa paddling newsgroup ott.rec.canoe-kayak. I'm on the "no lessons" side
of the discussion.

That's an interesting position for a novice kayaker to take. Whether to seek
instruction or not largely depends on how long you want to take to learn and how
much you want to learn. You can teach yourself some skills from books, but you can
learn much faster with instruction. Some techniques are nearly impossible to
describe adequately in print.

"Instruction" doesn't necessarily mean "professional instruction". Many clubs
offer free or low-cost instruction or "skills sessions" which can dramatically
shorten your learning curve.

--
Regards

Brian

Brian Nystrom ) writes:
"William R. Watt" wrote:

on the topic of lessons, there's been quite a heated debate in the local
Ottawa paddling newsgroup ott.rec.canoe-kayak. I'm on the "no lessons" side
of the discussion.

That's an interesting position for a novice kayaker to take. Whether to seek
instruction or not largely depends on how long you want to take to learn and how
much you want to learn. You can teach yourself some skills from books, but you can
learn much faster with instruction. Some techniques are nearly impossible to
describe adequately in print.

"Instruction" doesn't necessarily mean "professional instruction". Many clubs
offer free or low-cost instruction or "skills sessions" which can dramatically
shorten your learning curve.

I agree. That has been my basic position in the discussion. In addition to
your suggestions I've been saying that those of us with webbed feet who
grew up partially immersed in water learned from our families and by trial
and error. I also make the point that lessons can give you knowledge but
only practice gives you skill and experience. Knowlege is available from
many sources.

However "professional's" in the discussion maintain that most paddlers are
some kind of dummies who need to buy lessons and go on guided trips.
Perhaps the dummies gravitate toward professional paddlers and that's all
they see. I also suspect a lot of professional paddlers came up through
their own kind of system and know no other.
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a few more impressions ...

Tonight I paddled a 19 ft kayak but it did not have any cargo so
it sat high and was light and unstable. The sales rep said the
only way to try one of these multi-day trip kayaks is to rent one,
load it up, and paddle it around for a day or two. He gave me a
sales booklet of specs for the kayaks his store sells. Only some
of them listed load capacity. Others just stated the internal
volume. None showed the design draft or the immersion per unit
load above that. These are numbers hull design programs spit out.
They should be in the specifications for purchasers on load
carrying boats.

On the way to the beach today I visited two of the sporting goods
stores who are participating in the evening demonstrations. The
stores had a bunch of kayaks up on racks where I was able to look
over the hulls, especailly the bottoms. I was surprized to see one
of the chined boats had a convexity in a flat panel. This was in a
new boat that had never been used. I was also suprized to see a
hull distorted by a bulkhead. I didn't even need to my hand over
the hull to feel for it it. It stood out visibly like the
proverbial sore thunmb. I know enough about boatbuilding to
realize the repetitive strain boats take as waves pass under the
hull disorting the weak ones and breaking down the material they
are made of, saying nothing of loss of performance. On some
sailboats bulkheads do not come in direct contact with the hull
but are cushioned by a foam insert to prevent hard spots. After
seeing these kayaks in the stores I'd choose a round bottom hull
because it would be less likely to have weak spots.

The next thing I'd like to try is climbing back into (or onto) different
kayaks to see which ones are easiest to re-enter.

--
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"William R. Watt" wrote:

a few more impressions ...

Tonight I paddled a 19 ft kayak but it did not have any cargo so
it sat high and was light and unstable. The sales rep said the
only way to try one of these multi-day trip kayaks is to rent one,
load it up, and paddle it around for a day or two.

There are a lot of "barges" on the market and surprisingly, they sell well,
despite the fact that most people who buy them will never do an expedition. It's
probably due to the same reasons that people buy SUV's, the "bigger is better"
mentality, "just in case" and delusions of grandeur. Most people would be better
off with a lower volume day boat...and a small, fuel efficient car.

He gave me a
sales booklet of specs for the kayaks his store sells. Only some
of them listed load capacity. Others just stated the internal
volume. None showed the design draft or the immersion per unit
load above that. These are numbers hull design programs spit out.
They should be in the specifications for purchasers on load
carrying boats.

Most people wouldn't understand these numbers, so they're rarely published.

On the way to the beach today I visited two of the sporting goods
stores who are participating in the evening demonstrations. The
stores had a bunch of kayaks up on racks where I was able to look
over the hulls, especailly the bottoms. I was surprized to see one
of the chined boats had a convexity in a flat panel. This was in a
new boat that had never been used. I was also suprized to see a
hull distorted by a bulkhead. I didn't even need to my hand over
the hull to feel for it it. It stood out visibly like the
proverbial sore thunmb.

If you were looking at plastic boats, that's typical. There are a few out there
that use better materials that are more distortion resistant (Prijon, P&H), but
most polyethylene hulls will distort due to heat and/or pressure. They will
usually return to shape if left out in the sun.

I know enough about boatbuilding to
realize the repetitive strain boats take as waves pass under the
hull disorting the weak ones and breaking down the material they
are made of, saying nothing of loss of performance.

Polyethylene doesn't break down with repetitive stress, but it does flex.
Composite hulls are stiffer.

On some
sailboats bulkheads do not come in direct contact with the hull
but are cushioned by a foam insert to prevent hard spots.

Some kayaks use foam bulkheads, for the same reason. However, it's not as much of
a problem as some people would lead you to believe. My boats get used hard and
banged around quite a bit and I have yet to have a problem due to a hard bulkhead.

After
seeing these kayaks in the stores I'd choose a round bottom hull
because it would be less likely to have weak spots.

That's not an issue with a well-made boat. Choose the boat that fits you best and
handles the way you want, and ignore the hull shape. Kayak performance is
dependent on far more than hull cross-section shape.

The next thing I'd like to try is climbing back into (or onto) different
kayaks to see which ones are easiest to re-enter.

There's a lot of variation there, too. Personally, I prefer to concentrate on how
the boat works on the water, since that's where I am 99%+ of the time. I find
small cockpits to offer increased control and security, despite the fact that I'
6' tall.

--
Regards

Brian

William R. Watt wrote:
on the topic of lessons, there's been quite a heated debate in the
local Ottawa paddling newsgroup ott.rec.canoe-kayak. I'm on the "no
lessons" side of the discussion.

Sit-on-tops probably make that more possible (and responsible) than was
possible in the past.

(William R. Watt) typed:

on the topic of lessons, there's been quite a heated debate in the local
Ottawa paddling newsgroup ott.rec.canoe-kayak. I'm on the "no lessons" side
of the discussion.

That's fascinating. Would you mind posting some of the rationales for
deliberately attempting a difficult and mildly dangerous activity
incompetantly? I'd be really interested to read about 'em.

Personally, I am sooooooo grateful to those (the late Roger Corbett
first amongst them chronologically, and Bob Foote first amongst them
in terms of skill and professionalism) who taught the classes I took
almost annually for ten years. The fact that I now border upon
skillful has *so* enhanced the enjoyment I get from boating!

--
-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty

PS, if you talk to Parham, please tell him to eMail me!

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Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
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