On Sep 26, 2:21*pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote :



in fact, i've done ALOT of work with IBM over the last 20 years.
they're one of the most inventive and competitive companies in the
world. and their semiconductor plants are unionized

Not over that 20 years they weren't. *Unionization is quite a recent
thing with IBM. *The first alliance was in 1999.

thanks for proving my point. the semiconductor industry in the US has
collapsed. but IBM remains competitive due to its unionized workforce

i agree that unionization is a wonderful thing. the NON unionized
companies in silicon valley have disappeared.


Now, in recent history,
in 2001, IBM cut 500 workers in Burlington, VT, 400 in Endicott, NY, 200
in East Fishkill, 180 in Rochester, NY, 150 in Freemont, CA and 75 in
Raliegh, NC. *In 2002, over 9,000 jobs were cut in June of 2002 and
another 14,000 in August of the same year. *Their was a mass termination
at Lotus Professional Services (which is owned by IBM). *Half of the
consultants working there were told to find new jobs withing LPS or be
let go. *The IBM retirement package now requires that new retirees will
have to pay for medical benefits. *


again, thanks for proving my point. national semi in silicon valley is
closed. non union. phillips in san antonio is closed. non union.
motorola is closed. non union. again and again it's the NON union
plants that have disappeared.


So much for increased benefits by being unionized. *;(

really?

so why don't you get a job with a non-unionized plant?

oh. there aren't any

thanks again for proving why unions are great.

wf3h wrote:
On Sep 26, 2:21 pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote :



in fact, i've done ALOT of work with IBM over the last 20 years.
they're one of the most inventive and competitive companies in the
world. and their semiconductor plants are unionized
Not over that 20 years they weren't. Unionization is quite a recent
thing with IBM. The first alliance was in 1999.

thanks for proving my point. the semiconductor industry in the US has
collapsed. but IBM remains competitive due to its unionized workforce

i agree that unionization is a wonderful thing. the NON unionized
companies in silicon valley have disappeared.


Now, in recent history,
in 2001, IBM cut 500 workers in Burlington, VT, 400 in Endicott, NY, 200
in East Fishkill, 180 in Rochester, NY, 150 in Freemont, CA and 75 in
Raliegh, NC. In 2002, over 9,000 jobs were cut in June of 2002 and
another 14,000 in August of the same year. Their was a mass termination
at Lotus Professional Services (which is owned by IBM). Half of the
consultants working there were told to find new jobs withing LPS or be
let go. The IBM retirement package now requires that new retirees will
have to pay for medical benefits.


again, thanks for proving my point. national semi in silicon valley is
closed. non union. phillips in san antonio is closed. non union.
motorola is closed. non union. again and again it's the NON union
plants that have disappeared.

So much for increased benefits by being unionized. ;(

really?

so why don't you get a job with a non-unionized plant?

oh. there aren't any

thanks again for proving why unions are great.

Your anecdotes prove nothing.

There are NO unionized semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley. Or
elsewhere, for that matter, AFAIK.

Semiconductor plants all across the US are closing because the plants
age, require billions of dollars to renovate to be competitive, and so
have been shut down in favor of using plants offshore.

And just FYI, Silicon Valley is one hellaciously expensive place to
live. Nobody in their right mind would try to build a new plant there.

--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

On Sep 27, 8:12*am, Bama Brian wrote:
wf3h wrote:
On Sep 26, 2:21 pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote :

in fact, i've done ALOT of work with IBM over the last 20 years.
they're one of the most inventive and competitive companies in the
world. and their semiconductor plants are unionized
Not over that 20 years they weren't. *Unionization is quite a recent
thing with IBM. *The first alliance was in 1999.

thanks for proving my point. the semiconductor industry in the US has
collapsed. but IBM remains competitive due to its unionized workforce

i agree that unionization is a wonderful thing. the NON unionized
companies in silicon valley have disappeared.

Now, in recent history,
in 2001, IBM cut 500 workers in Burlington, VT, 400 in Endicott, NY, 200
in East Fishkill, 180 in Rochester, NY, 150 in Freemont, CA and 75 in
Raliegh, NC. *In 2002, over 9,000 jobs were cut in June of 2002 and
another 14,000 in August of the same year. *Their was a mass termination
at Lotus Professional Services (which is owned by IBM). *Half of the
consultants working there were told to find new jobs withing LPS or be
let go. *The IBM retirement package now requires that new retirees will
have to pay for medical benefits. *

again, thanks for proving my point. national semi in silicon valley is
closed. non union. phillips in san antonio is closed. non union.
motorola is closed. non union. again and again it's the NON union
plants that have disappeared.

So much for increased benefits by being unionized. *;(

really?

so why don't you get a job with a non-unionized plant?

oh. there aren't any

thanks again for proving why unions are great.

Your anecdotes prove nothing.

There are NO unionized semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley. *Or
elsewhere, for that matter, AFAIK.

gee. it's too bad you don't know the industry. ever hear of IBM?

oh. you haven't. but you're an authority on the industry



Semiconductor plants all across the US are closing because the plants
age, require billions of dollars to renovate to be competitive, and so
have been shut down in favor of using plants offshore.

And just FYI, Silicon Valley is one hellaciously expensive place to
live. *Nobody in their right mind would try to build a new plant there.


agreed. and since there were no unionized plants there, ever, and
there are few plants there today, unions had zip to do with the death
of the industry in the US

wf3h wrote:
On Sep 27, 8:12 am, Bama Brian wrote:
wf3h wrote:
On Sep 26, 2:21 pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote :
in fact, i've done ALOT of work with IBM over the last 20 years.
they're one of the most inventive and competitive companies in the
world. and their semiconductor plants are unionized
Not over that 20 years they weren't. Unionization is quite a recent
thing with IBM. The first alliance was in 1999.
thanks for proving my point. the semiconductor industry in the US has
collapsed. but IBM remains competitive due to its unionized workforce
i agree that unionization is a wonderful thing. the NON unionized
companies in silicon valley have disappeared.
Now, in recent history,
in 2001, IBM cut 500 workers in Burlington, VT, 400 in Endicott, NY, 200
in East Fishkill, 180 in Rochester, NY, 150 in Freemont, CA and 75 in
Raliegh, NC. In 2002, over 9,000 jobs were cut in June of 2002 and
another 14,000 in August of the same year. Their was a mass termination
at Lotus Professional Services (which is owned by IBM). Half of the
consultants working there were told to find new jobs withing LPS or be
let go. The IBM retirement package now requires that new retirees will
have to pay for medical benefits.
again, thanks for proving my point. national semi in silicon valley is
closed. non union. phillips in san antonio is closed. non union.
motorola is closed. non union. again and again it's the NON union
plants that have disappeared.
So much for increased benefits by being unionized. ;(
really?
so why don't you get a job with a non-unionized plant?
oh. there aren't any
thanks again for proving why unions are great.
Your anecdotes prove nothing.

There are NO unionized semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley. Or
elsewhere, for that matter, AFAIK.

gee. it's too bad you don't know the industry. ever hear of IBM?

oh. you haven't. but you're an authority on the industry

And you're a damned fool. Never insult a man unless you're sure you
will survive the insult. It's why manners were invented.

I've heard of IBM. I used to work for NEC in the Silicon Valley wafer
fab facility and backend manufacturing. Also worked for National
Semiconductor, Signetics/Phillips, Fujitsu, and a few others. They
helped me retire early. Just for brags, here are a few jobs I worked at
various companies: engineer, engineering manager, field applications
engineer, field applications manager, development tools manager,
business planning manager, director of marketing.

In fact, I could say you're not even qualified to evaluate my resume.

Now let's look at a partial list of who actually had unionized
semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley:
Intel - No.
National Semiconductor - No.
NEC - No. (second plant was in Roseville, CA)
Hitachi - No.
Fujitsu - No. (plant was in OR)
Cypress - No.
AMD - No.
Micron - No. (actually in Boise, ID)

In fact, the unions never got so much as a toehold in Silicon Valley.
Yet companies like AMD and Intel have survived and today are quite
profitable. But they have had to restructure themselves literally every
damned year.

As to IBM, well, that company damn near shot itself to death twenty
years back. Fortunately for it, its management learned early that they
were NOT competitive in manufacturing - which is why they got out of the
mainframe biz early, and why they quit the PC market even while it was
still hot.

As to their two chip plants, only the one in Fishkill has been renovated
to be commercially viable. The other stays alive doing God knows what.
Certainly they won't tell me, and I'm not inclined to do a white paper
for you for free.

Most, if not all, semi plants today survive by manufacturing for others
as well as the parent company. Look up Globalfoundries and Taiwan
Semiconductor for examples.



Semiconductor plants all across the US are closing because the plants
age, require billions of dollars to renovate to be competitive, and so
have been shut down in favor of using plants offshore.

And just FYI, Silicon Valley is one hellaciously expensive place to
live. Nobody in their right mind would try to build a new plant there.


agreed. and since there were no unionized plants there, ever, and
there are few plants there today, unions had zip to do with the death
of the industry in the US

Ask IBM why it could not sustain profitability with its major product
lines, and why it had to close plants world-wide.

But the industry is not dead; even if the plants are mostly all offshore
today. I was surprised to see the AMD/Global plant being built in
upstate NY. I could not see how Global could sustain profitability
given the NY tax structure, so I checked and found that NY state is
giving Global an 'assistance package' of $1.37 billion.

That plant will need a complete renovation within ten years, or less. I
wonder what Global and New York State will do then?

--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

On Sep 27, 11:17*pm, Bama Brian wrote:
wf3h wrote:

There are NO unionized semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley. *Or
elsewhere, for that matter, AFAIK.

gee. it's too bad you don't know the industry. ever hear of IBM?

oh. you *haven't. but you're an authority on the industry

And you're a damned fool. *Never insult a man unless you're sure you
will survive the insult. *It's why manners were invented.

I've heard of IBM. *I used to work for NEC in the Silicon Valley wafer
fab facility and backend manufacturing. *Also worked for National
Semiconductor,

yes, i've been there. i installed some of the wet cleaning benches
used for cleaning devices.


Signetics/Phillips

was also at philips in san antonio...

, Fujitsu, and a few others. *They
helped me retire early. *Just for brags, here are a few jobs I worked at
various companies: *engineer, engineering manager, field applications
engineer, field applications manager, development tools manager,
business planning manager, director of marketing.

In fact, I could say you're not even qualified to evaluate my resume.

again, you know zip about the industry, it seems


Now let's look at a partial list of who actually had unionized
semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley:
Intel - No.
National Semiconductor - No.
NEC - No. *(second plant was in Roseville, CA)
Hitachi - No.
Fujitsu - No. (plant was in OR)
Cypress - No.
AMD - No.
Micron - No. (actually in Boise, ID)

In fact, the unions never got so much as a toehold in Silicon Valley.

exactly my point. those who claim unions destroyed these companies are
wrong. even you admit that by pointing out the companies that have
closed...NONE of which were unionized



As to their two chip plants, only the one in Fishkill has been renovated
to be commercially viable. *The other stays alive doing God knows what.
* Certainly they won't tell me, and I'm not inclined to do a white paper
for you for free.

don't flatter yourself


Most, if not all, semi plants today survive by manufacturing for others
as well as the parent company. *Look up Globalfoundries and Taiwan
Semiconductor for examples.

charter was j ust purchased last week. yes, i'm familiar with the
foundries. you seem surprised by teh economics of the industry...NONE
of which is union related.

i used to work for TI...they laid off their harvard/caltech/mit
researchers and outsourced R and D to TSMC...

oh. you don't know that 'cuz you still think everything's OK with the
industry...

agreed. and since there were no unionized plants there, ever, and
there are few plants there today, unions had zip to do with the death
of the industry in the US

Ask IBM why it could not sustain profitability with its major product
lines, and why it had to close plants world-wide.

But the industry is not dead; even if the plants are mostly all offshore
today

it's certainly dead in the US.

wf3h wrote:
On Sep 27, 11:17 pm, Bama Brian wrote:
wf3h wrote:

There are NO unionized semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley. Or
elsewhere, for that matter, AFAIK.
gee. it's too bad you don't know the industry. ever hear of IBM?
oh. you haven't. but you're an authority on the industry
And you're a damned fool. Never insult a man unless you're sure you
will survive the insult. It's why manners were invented.

I've heard of IBM. I used to work for NEC in the Silicon Valley wafer
fab facility and backend manufacturing. Also worked for National
Semiconductor,

yes, i've been there. i installed some of the wet cleaning benches
used for cleaning devices.


Signetics/Phillips

was also at philips in san antonio...

, Fujitsu, and a few others. They
helped me retire early. Just for brags, here are a few jobs I worked at
various companies: engineer, engineering manager, field applications
engineer, field applications manager, development tools manager,
business planning manager, director of marketing.

In fact, I could say you're not even qualified to evaluate my resume.

again, you know zip about the industry, it seems

It is you who knows zip about the industry, Mr. "Service Engineer". I'd
put you on a par with the "Sanitation Engineers" who used to sweep the
floors. Or those so-called "Programming Engineers."

Now let's look at a partial list of who actually had unionized
semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley:
Intel - No.
National Semiconductor - No.
NEC - No. (second plant was in Roseville, CA)
Hitachi - No.
Fujitsu - No. (plant was in OR)
Cypress - No.
AMD - No.
Micron - No. (actually in Boise, ID)

In fact, the unions never got so much as a toehold in Silicon Valley.

exactly my point. those who claim unions destroyed these companies are
wrong. even you admit that by pointing out the companies that have
closed...NONE of which were unionized

Your original point was that unions were significant in keeping the
semiconductor companies alive. But from Silicon Valley perspective,
unions were nothing but a money sinkhole, sucking up money that could
better be used on R&D, capital equipment, or even salaries.


As to their two chip plants, only the one in Fishkill has been renovated
to be commercially viable. The other stays alive doing God knows what.
Certainly they won't tell me, and I'm not inclined to do a white paper
for you for free.

don't flatter yourself

I didn't have to. My pay check did. Besides, you're not competent to
evaluate the P&L of a wafer fab.


Most, if not all, semi plants today survive by manufacturing for others
as well as the parent company. Look up Globalfoundries and Taiwan
Semiconductor for examples.

charter was j ust purchased last week. yes, i'm familiar with the
foundries. you seem surprised by teh economics of the industry...NONE
of which is union related.

Globalfoundries is the name of a company; foundries is a generic term
for semiconductor fabrication plants. Do try to keep up.


i used to work for TI...they laid off their harvard/caltech/mit
researchers and outsourced R and D to TSMC...

But you weren't at that level, were you?


oh. you don't know that 'cuz you still think everything's OK with the
industry...
agreed. and since there were no unionized plants there, ever, and
there are few plants there today, unions had zip to do with the death
of the industry in the US
Ask IBM why it could not sustain profitability with its major product
lines, and why it had to close plants world-wide.

But the industry is not dead; even if the plants are mostly all offshore
today

it's certainly dead in the US.

Er, no. Not as much manufacturing as I'd like to see - but nowhere near
dead.

--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

Bama Brian wrote in news:h9p9rj$6j1$1
@news.eternal-september.org:

As to IBM, well, that company damn near shot itself to death twenty
years back. Fortunately for it, its management learned early that they
were NOT competitive in manufacturing - which is why they got out of
the
mainframe biz early, and why they quit the PC market even while it was
still hot.

IBM got into trouble for many reasons. One was marketing.....sales reps
felt they had to work just as hard to sell 10 PCs as they did to sell a
370 or a pair of AS400s. IBM confused the public with its PS2 marketing
as the customer base associated it with a non standard proprietaty
architecture (which it was) rather than the industry standard available
in clones. OS2 (a much superior op system to DOS/Windows) was associated
by marketing with PS2 so that folks didn't realize OS2 would also run on
all clones.

I am not sure what you mean by getting out of the mainframe biz early
means. IBM WAS the mainframe industry until the 80s when they didn't
properly respond to Sun and some others. They left UNIVAC and CDC in the
dust.



--
Sleep well tonight,

RD (The Sandman)

"Fear is the foundation of most governments."

President John Adams

wf3h wrote in
:

On Sep 26, 2:21*pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote
innews:58db059f-234f-44fc-bd7b-fe88428c
:



in fact, i've done ALOT of work with IBM over the last 20 years.
they're one of the most inventive and competitive companies in the
world. and their semiconductor plants are unionized

Not over that 20 years they weren't. *Unionization is quite a recent
thing with IBM. *The first alliance was in 1999.

thanks for proving my point. the semiconductor industry in the US has
collapsed. but IBM remains competitive due to its unionized workforce

i agree that unionization is a wonderful thing. the NON unionized
companies in silicon valley have disappeared.


Now, in recent history,
in 2001, IBM cut 500 workers in Burlington, VT, 400 in Endicott, NY,
200 in East Fishkill, 180 in Rochester, NY, 150 in Freemont, CA and
75 in Raliegh, NC. *In 2002, over 9,000 jobs were cut in June of 2002
and another 14,000 in August of the same year. *Their was a mass
terminatio
n
at Lotus Professional Services (which is owned by IBM). *Half of the
consultants working there were told to find new jobs withing LPS or
be let go. *The IBM retirement package now requires that new retirees
will have to pay for medical benefits. *


again, thanks for proving my point. national semi in silicon valley is
closed. non union. phillips in san antonio is closed. non union.
motorola is closed. non union. again and again it's the NON union
plants that have disappeared.

Yep, IBM in the US has laid off over 10,000 employees while moving most
of its semiconductor stuff overseas where the union is stronger.

So much for increased benefits by being unionized. *;(

really?

so why don't you get a job with a non-unionized plant?

oh. there aren't any

thanks again for proving why unions are great.

Nope, just proving that unions are like a fungus. They pop up virtually
anywhere and will do whatever they have to to stay in power. I have had
experience in union shops and non union shop and, believe me, merit pay
systems are much better.



--
Sleep well tonight,

RD (The Sandman)

"Fear is the foundation of most governments."

President John Adams

On Sep 27, 12:55*pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote :



thanks for proving my point. the semiconductor industry in the US has
collapsed. but IBM remains competitive due to its unionized workforce

i agree that unionization is a wonderful thing. the NON unionized
companies in silicon valley have disappeared.

Yep, IBM in the US has laid off over 10,000 employees while moving most
of its semiconductor stuff overseas where the union is stronger.



So much for increased benefits by being unionized. *;(

really?

so why don't you get a job with a non-unionized plant?

oh. there aren't any

thanks again for proving why unions are great.

Nope, just proving that unions are like a fungus. *They pop up virtually
anywhere and will do whatever they have to to stay in power. *I have had
experience in union shops and non union shop and, believe me, merit pay
systems are much better.

no, they're no. since manufacturing has disappeared in the US and
virtually none of it was unionized, it's obvious unions had zip to do
with it. you admit IBM is unionized...and still in the US, while the
non unionized plants are gone

and that, to you, proves non unionized plants protect jobs? if that's
the case, where are the jobs?

wf3h wrote in
:

On Sep 27, 12:55*pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote
innews:6517707f-a763-4394-ae23-bbb4cddf
:



thanks for proving my point. the semiconductor industry in the US
has collapsed. but IBM remains competitive due to its unionized
workforce

i agree that unionization is a wonderful thing. the NON unionized
companies in silicon valley have disappeared.

Yep, IBM in the US has laid off over 10,000 employees while moving
most of its semiconductor stuff overseas where the union is stronger.



So much for increased benefits by being unionized. *;(

really?

so why don't you get a job with a non-unionized plant?

oh. there aren't any

thanks again for proving why unions are great.

Nope, just proving that unions are like a fungus. *They pop up
virtuall
y
anywhere and will do whatever they have to to stay in power. *I have
ha
d
experience in union shops and non union shop and, believe me, merit
pay systems are much better.

no, they're no. since manufacturing has disappeared in the US and
virtually none of it was unionized, it's obvious unions had zip to do
with it. you admit IBM is unionized...and still in the US, while the
non unionized plants are gone

That was a company choice....and not a good one.

and that, to you, proves non unionized plants protect jobs? if that's
the case, where are the jobs?

If you were half as familiar with IBM as you insinuate, you would know
what a loss that was.


--
Sleep well tonight,

RD (The Sandman)

"Fear is the foundation of most governments."

President John Adams