On Sep 28, 11:36*am, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote in news:26abc339-e24b-42c6-816c-
:





i love the rightwing mythology of 'merit' based employment. your boss
thinks you're a threat to him? you're gone. smarter than he is? you're
gone. more personality? you're gone. doesn't like your car? you're
gone.

I worked in a merit pay company for thirty years. *Never had any of those
problems nor did I with my pay. *It seems that if you work and do good
you get rewarded. *


yes, that's the myth. i've seen people be top rated by one boss...and
get fired when a re-org gave them a new boss. same guy. same job. top
10% to bottom 10%.


this myth that the right wing proposes....companies employ on the
basis of 'merit' is laughable. but i suppose it enables them to sleep
at night, just like a little kid who has his security blanket and
sucks his thumb

When I was in management, as in most places, I had both eagles and
turkeys. *One of my focuses was to feed my eagles and starve my turkeys.. *
If someone left who was unhappy with his pay, it damn sure wasn't an
eagle.

lullabye...and good night...any other myths?

by the way...how'd this myth of 'merit' work out for lehman brothers
over the last year?

Can't address it, didn't work. *BTW, neither did you.


didn't work? and that proves it works...

interesting view of logic you have

On Sep 28, 11:37*am, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:


Love to see the bottom line and benefits of the union "managers"
during that period.. They are really no different than the corporate
managers they scream about, only there to suck dollars off the backs
of hard working men, so they don't have to...

Unions where you can live off your coworker's sweat.

--

'free market'...where the rich live off the income of honest folks

wf3h wrote in
:

On Sep 28, 11:02*am, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote in news:5fd30d3f-a0b3-4621-b9fc-
:

On Sep 26, 10:35*pm, Zombywoof wrote:

I've been an Exempt Employee all my adult life and have been at
two Companies while they went through the Unionization process. *

and i've worked for both unionized and non unionized companies.
unionized companies are healthier

So have I and, no, they aren't necessarily healthier.

not necessarily, but generally...




In one Management was absolutely more then happy to see their
workers unionize because it allowed them to dump a ****-load of
personnel programs that weren't required by law, and costing them
tons of money.
\\

things like vacations...won by union workers? you ready to give up
weekends and vacations?

I had an excellent vacation plan. *No union. *I had merit pay. *No
union. *

guess where 'vacations' came from. you think you'd have a vacation
without unions?

merit pay? why not read what w. edwards deming said about 'performance
reviews', etc....

I have.....have you?

I had mission pay when needed or was able to give to my employees.
*No union. *We had open communication on salaries and how they were
given.

In the other management took what is more the normally perceived
action and attempted to dissuade the workers from organizing. *Of
course since they really can't prevent it they eventually develop

and since there's no penalty for firing workers engaged in
unionizing, that's what companies do.

Au contraire, mon ami. *There are heavy penalties for doing that. *Sa
y
what you wish about unions but don't bull****.

uh...no. what 'heavy penalties' are there?

In the company I was in, you are playing you bet your job.

answer: none. no penalty at all, regardless of what the right wing
says.

Who listens to the right wing?

the ONLY 'penalty' is that, after YEARS of expensive litigation, you
have to hire the person back and give them back pay.

wow. impressive.
--

chuckle what i've seen is that unionized companies are actually
healthier since unions act as a check on unlimited exec power.
*union
s
win benefits for both exempt and non-exempt employees.

While getting them screwed on other things.

ah. 'other things'. that's kind of like 'they say'...


non unionized companies screw their workers like they're $2 whores.

Some did.....most didn't. *Of course, the unions did everything they
could to convince employees that was true. *Looks like it worked with
you.

and you sucked down the management kool aid...you're just a bobble
head doll for management

Perhaps, but since I was there and you weren't........

and the right, with their deep, abiding disgust at the very
existence of the middle class, hates unions

So do most people who believe in individual accountability and pay
and promotions via merit rather than longevity.


fine. you go show me the data that companies actually hire and fire on
'merit'.

I was in one that did. Too bad you were a turkey in lieu of being an
eagle.

as deming said 'in god we trust, all others bring data'.

where's your data? so far all you've proven is that NON unionized
semiconductor houses are gone.




--
Sleep well tonight,

RD (The Sandman)

"Fear is the foundation of most governments."

President John Adams

wf3h wrote in
:

On Sep 28, 11:32*am, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote
innews:45cf6ae2-e1dc-4588-848b-da463fdf
:



no, they're no. since manufacturing has disappeared in the US and
virtually none of it was unionized, it's obvious unions had zip to
do with it. *you admit IBM is *unionized...and still in the US,
while
the
non unionized plants are gone

That was a company choice....and not a good one.

oh. i see how this works. you claim unions destroy business. proof of
that is

1. non unionized plants are closed
2. unionized plants are still in production but you think they
shouldn't be because that disproves your view

gee. an ironclad argument

I didn't present those as proof. They are your strawmen, you feed them.

and that, to you, proves non unionized plants protect jobs? if
that's the case, where are the jobs?

If you were half as familiar with IBM as you insinuate, you would
know what a loss that was.

and if you knew logic, you'd see how ridiculous your position is

Perhaps.....but my experience is what I go on......perhaps when you get
some instead of chugging down union koolaid.......

--
Sleep well tonight,

RD (The Sandman)

"Fear is the foundation of most governments."

President John Adams

wf3h wrote in
:

On Sep 28, 11:33*am, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
Zombywoof wrote
innews7lvb5lafdojtrb0hn3fvrqu89121
:


It is one of the reasons that most public sector employees are
perceived as not doing dick (The old 50 government workers & 50
Lesbians in one room joke). *Since excellence will not lead to a
pay increase, promotion, or any other type of personal reward most
do not bother. *In those organizations there is absolutely no
reason to exce
l
since excellence is not rewarded.

That is particularly true in union shops.


as opposed to the wonderful things wall street has done for the middle
class over the last year.


Which has nothing to do with open or closed shops.

--
Sleep well tonight,

RD (The Sandman)

"Fear is the foundation of most governments."

President John Adams

wf3h wrote in news:e94b6569-6d9e-409d-a189-
:

On Sep 28, 11:36*am, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote in news:26abc339-e24b-42c6-816c-
:





i love the rightwing mythology of 'merit' based employment. your
boss
thinks you're a threat to him? you're gone. smarter than he is?
you're
gone. more personality? you're gone. doesn't like your car? you're
gone.

I worked in a merit pay company for thirty years. *Never had any of
tho
se
problems nor did I with my pay. *It seems that if you work and do good
you get rewarded. *


yes, that's the myth. i've seen people be top rated by one boss...and
get fired when a re-org gave them a new boss. same guy. same job. top
10% to bottom 10%.

Hmmmm, where did this happen?

this myth that the right wing proposes....companies employ on the
basis of 'merit' is laughable. but i suppose it enables them to
sleep
at night, just like a little kid who has his security blanket and
sucks his thumb

When I was in management, as in most places, I had both eagles and
turkeys. *One of my focuses was to feed my eagles and starve my
turkeys
. *
If someone left who was unhappy with his pay, it damn sure wasn't an
eagle.

lullabye...and good night...any other myths?

Nope.....just the truth.

by the way...how'd this myth of 'merit' work out for lehman brothers
over the last year?

Can't address it, didn't work. *BTW, neither did you.


didn't work? and that proves it works...

Typo....left out the word "there".

interesting view of logic you have




--
Sleep well tonight,

RD (The Sandman)

"Fear is the foundation of most governments."

President John Adams

In article , "RD (The
Sandman)" says...

wf3h wrote in
:

On Sep 28, 11:02*am, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote in news:5fd30d3f-a0b3-4621-b9fc-
:

On Sep 26, 10:35*pm, Zombywoof wrote:

I've been an Exempt Employee all my adult life and have been at
two Companies while they went through the Unionization process. *

and i've worked for both unionized and non unionized companies.
unionized companies are healthier

So have I and, no, they aren't necessarily healthier.

not necessarily, but generally...




In one Management was absolutely more then happy to see their
workers unionize because it allowed them to dump a ****-load of
personnel programs that weren't required by law, and costing them
tons of money.
\\

things like vacations...won by union workers? you ready to give up
weekends and vacations?

I had an excellent vacation plan. *No union. *I had merit pay. *No
union. *

guess where 'vacations' came from. you think you'd have a vacation
without unions?

merit pay? why not read what w. edwards deming said about 'performance
reviews', etc....

I have.....have you?

I had mission pay when needed or was able to give to my employees.
*No union. *We had open communication on salaries and how they were
given.

In the other management took what is more the normally perceived
action and attempted to dissuade the workers from organizing. *Of
course since they really can't prevent it they eventually develop

and since there's no penalty for firing workers engaged in
unionizing, that's what companies do.

Au contraire, mon ami. *There are heavy penalties for doing that. *Sa
y
what you wish about unions but don't bull****.

uh...no. what 'heavy penalties' are there?

In the company I was in, you are playing you bet your job.

answer: none. no penalty at all, regardless of what the right wing
says.

Who listens to the right wing?

the ONLY 'penalty' is that, after YEARS of expensive litigation, you
have to hire the person back and give them back pay.

wow. impressive.
--

chuckle what i've seen is that unionized companies are actually
healthier since unions act as a check on unlimited exec power.
*union
s
win benefits for both exempt and non-exempt employees.

While getting them screwed on other things.

ah. 'other things'. that's kind of like 'they say'...


non unionized companies screw their workers like they're $2 whores.

Some did.....most didn't. *Of course, the unions did everything they
could to convince employees that was true. *Looks like it worked with
you.

and you sucked down the management kool aid...you're just a bobble
head doll for management

Perhaps, but since I was there and you weren't........

and the right, with their deep, abiding disgust at the very
existence of the middle class, hates unions

So do most people who believe in individual accountability and pay
and promotions via merit rather than longevity.


fine. you go show me the data that companies actually hire and fire on
'merit'.

I was in one that did. Too bad you were a turkey in lieu of being an
eagle.

I guess most of the "corporate giants on wall street do"... But the left
hate them for that...

as deming said 'in god we trust, all others bring data'.

where's your data? so far all you've proven is that NON unionized
semiconductor houses are gone.

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:19:02 -0400, JustWait
wrote:

In article , "RD (The
Sandman)" says...

wf3h wrote in
:

On Sep 28, 11:02*am, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote in news:5fd30d3f-a0b3-4621-b9fc-
:

On Sep 26, 10:35*pm, Zombywoof wrote:

I've been an Exempt Employee all my adult life and have been at
two Companies while they went through the Unionization process. *

and i've worked for both unionized and non unionized companies.
unionized companies are healthier

So have I and, no, they aren't necessarily healthier.

not necessarily, but generally...




In one Management was absolutely more then happy to see their
workers unionize because it allowed them to dump a ****-load of
personnel programs that weren't required by law, and costing them
tons of money.
\\

things like vacations...won by union workers? you ready to give up
weekends and vacations?

I had an excellent vacation plan. *No union. *I had merit pay. *No
union. *

guess where 'vacations' came from. you think you'd have a vacation
without unions?

merit pay? why not read what w. edwards deming said about 'performance
reviews', etc....

I have.....have you?

I had mission pay when needed or was able to give to my employees.
*No union. *We had open communication on salaries and how they were
given.

In the other management took what is more the normally perceived
action and attempted to dissuade the workers from organizing. *Of
course since they really can't prevent it they eventually develop

and since there's no penalty for firing workers engaged in
unionizing, that's what companies do.

Au contraire, mon ami. *There are heavy penalties for doing that. *Sa
y
what you wish about unions but don't bull****.

uh...no. what 'heavy penalties' are there?

In the company I was in, you are playing you bet your job.

answer: none. no penalty at all, regardless of what the right wing
says.

Who listens to the right wing?

the ONLY 'penalty' is that, after YEARS of expensive litigation, you
have to hire the person back and give them back pay.

wow. impressive.
--

chuckle what i've seen is that unionized companies are actually
healthier since unions act as a check on unlimited exec power.
*union
s
win benefits for both exempt and non-exempt employees.

While getting them screwed on other things.

ah. 'other things'. that's kind of like 'they say'...


non unionized companies screw their workers like they're $2 whores.

Some did.....most didn't. *Of course, the unions did everything they
could to convince employees that was true. *Looks like it worked with
you.

and you sucked down the management kool aid...you're just a bobble
head doll for management

Perhaps, but since I was there and you weren't........

and the right, with their deep, abiding disgust at the very
existence of the middle class, hates unions

So do most people who believe in individual accountability and pay
and promotions via merit rather than longevity.


fine. you go show me the data that companies actually hire and fire on
'merit'.

I was in one that did. Too bad you were a turkey in lieu of being an
eagle.

I guess most of the "corporate giants on wall street do"... But the left
hate them for that...

as deming said 'in god we trust, all others bring data'.

where's your data? so far all you've proven is that NON unionized
semiconductor houses are gone.



Crossposting will just get more of these folks over here.

But, I guess it doesn't make much of a damn anyway.
--

John H

On Sep 28, 4:48*pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote :





On Sep 28, 11:32*am, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote
innews:45cf6ae2-e1dc-4588-848b-da463fdf
:

no, they're no. since manufacturing has disappeared in the US and
virtually none of it was unionized, it's obvious unions had zip to
do with it. *you admit IBM is *unionized...and still in the US,
while
the
non unionized plants are gone

That was a company choice....and not a good one.

oh. i see how this works. you claim unions destroy business. proof of
that is

1. non unionized plants are closed
2. unionized plants are still in production but you think they
shouldn't be because that disproves your view

gee. an ironclad argument

I didn't present those as proof. *They are your strawmen, you feed them..

and that, to you, proves non unionized plants protect jobs? if
that's the case, where are the jobs?

If you were half as familiar with IBM as you insinuate, you would
know what a loss that was.

and if you knew logic, you'd see how ridiculous your position is

Perhaps.....but my experience is what I go on......perhaps when you get
some instead of chugging down union koolaid.......

--
Sleep well tonight,

RD (The Sandman)

"Fear is the foundation of most governments."

President John Adams- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Sep 28, 4:48*pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:

Perhaps.....but my experience is what I go on......perhaps when you get
some instead of chugging down union koolaid.......

--
\

says the guy who thinks alfred e. newman is the 2nd coming of
christ...because there's nothing wrong in the US since the rich are
doing so well, courtesy of a middle class bailout