thunder wrote:
On Fri, 01 May 2009 08:26:44 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote:


If you had a gasoline electric a 30 year old truck would be in the junk
by now because of the cost of replacing the battery. From what I have
heard they have to be replaced every 6 to 8 years depending on use. With
that rate of depreciation they become disposable. Every one know the
cost of replacing batteries in your old laptop.

Geez, if everyone was as negative about new technologies as you are, we
would still be driving horse and buggies, and forget computers. Still,
they are now getting 100,000 miles out of present battery technology, and
with standardization, and future innovations, battery life will improve
and cost will come down. Remember the cost of those older laptops?


What's really sad to me is that in the late 1970's, GM or Ford or
Chrysler could have decided to allocate enough funds to develop the sort
of batteries we need now to make "electric" cars affordable and
practical. Twenty five years of solid, advancing development would have
made a real difference for us by now.

On Fri, 01 May 2009 11:41:34 -0400, HK wrote:


What's really sad to me is that in the late 1970's, GM or Ford or
Chrysler could have decided to allocate enough funds to develop the sort
of batteries we need now to make "electric" cars affordable and
practical. Twenty five years of solid, advancing development would have
made a real difference for us by now.

Well, if we are talking past history, imagine if Reagan hadn't dismantled
Carter's initiative to be energy independent by the year 2000. It
probably would have saved us from three wars, and prevented the largest
transfer of wealth in human history. But hey, history is a bore.

thunder wrote:
On Fri, 01 May 2009 08:26:44 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote:


If you had a gasoline electric a 30 year old truck would be in the junk
by now because of the cost of replacing the battery. From what I have
heard they have to be replaced every 6 to 8 years depending on use. With
that rate of depreciation they become disposable. Every one know the
cost of replacing batteries in your old laptop.

Geez, if everyone was as negative about new technologies as you are, we
would still be driving horse and buggies, and forget computers. Still,
they are now getting 100,000 miles out of present battery technology, and
with standardization, and future innovations, battery life will improve
and cost will come down. Remember the cost of those older laptops?

Gas/eclectic technology is not new. It is at least 80 years old in this
country. The first gas (fossil fuel)/electric systems appeared on the
railroads in the thirties and became that standard engine about 1960.
They are now the only system used on the major railroad lines.

Chemistry dictates what can be done with batteries, and they can not be
improved beyond a point that is dictated by the atomic structure of the
atoms being used in the battery. ie. Nickel hydride, zinc/carbon etc.

It does not matter what system is used for propulsion of a vehicle there
is given amount of energy needed to move that vehicle. This is defined
by basic physical equations on mass and velocity.

What ever means of propulsion that is used the energy to propel that
vehicle, it must be created, either in a fixed power plant, or on the
vehicle with a gasoline or nuclear system. Batteries are storage system
and not an energy source.

As for the 100,000 miles, I have never had a vehicle that I did not have
over 150000 miles on when I got rid of it. (a couple with 200000) The
way cars are used today that is not abnormal. This means that when ever
you bought a used car you will be looking at replacing the batteries.
This will cause cars to depreciate even faster than today.

"HK" wrote in message
...



What's really sad to me is that in the late 1970's, GM or Ford or Chrysler
could have decided to allocate enough funds to develop the sort of
batteries we need now to make "electric" cars affordable and practical.
Twenty five years of solid, advancing development would have made a real
difference for us by now.


Research and development of high density batteries for the automotive market
has been going on for at least that long Harry.

Technical breakthroughs come from many sources other than the automobile
manufacturers, although they often help fund it.

In the business I was in I visited two private research facilities that were
working on high output density lithium batteries for the automotive market
and promise of electric and hybrid cars. This was in the early 80's. One
company was a relatively new start-up, the other an existing large battery
manufacturer.

I remember it well because the clean rooms in which the batteries were made
and assembled had to be kept at 5 percent relative humidity or less because
lithium is so reactive with water or water vapor. After putting on the
"bunny suit" and entering the clean room area, you involuntarily gasped for
a breath, the air was so dry.

The scope of development is better done within organizations that specialize
in the technology.

Lithium batteries have come a long way, but they are still not really
practical unless we all radically change our driving habits. And they
still have to be charged which requires energy.

Fuel cell technology is the future.

Eisboch

Keith Nuttle wrote:
thunder wrote:
On Fri, 01 May 2009 08:26:44 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote:


If you had a gasoline electric a 30 year old truck would be in the junk
by now because of the cost of replacing the battery. From what I have
heard they have to be replaced every 6 to 8 years depending on use. With
that rate of depreciation they become disposable. Every one know the
cost of replacing batteries in your old laptop.

Geez, if everyone was as negative about new technologies as you are,
we would still be driving horse and buggies, and forget computers.
Still, they are now getting 100,000 miles out of present battery
technology, and with standardization, and future innovations, battery
life will improve and cost will come down. Remember the cost of those
older laptops?

Gas/eclectic technology is not new. It is at least 80 years old in this
country. The first gas (fossil fuel)/electric systems appeared on the
railroads in the thirties and became that standard engine about 1960.
They are now the only system used on the major railroad lines.

Chemistry dictates what can be done with batteries, and they can not be
improved beyond a point that is dictated by the atomic structure of the
atoms being used in the battery. ie. Nickel hydride, zinc/carbon etc.

It does not matter what system is used for propulsion of a vehicle there
is given amount of energy needed to move that vehicle. This is defined
by basic physical equations on mass and velocity.

What ever means of propulsion that is used the energy to propel that
vehicle, it must be created, either in a fixed power plant, or on the
vehicle with a gasoline or nuclear system. Batteries are storage system
and not an energy source.

As for the 100,000 miles, I have never had a vehicle that I did not have
over 150000 miles on when I got rid of it. (a couple with 200000) The
way cars are used today that is not abnormal. This means that when ever
you bought a used car you will be looking at replacing the batteries.
This will cause cars to depreciate even faster than today.

I made a mistake in my previous post. I should have specified commercial
use for the gas/electric system. Gas/electric system have been used
in the submarines in since 1900.

On Fri, 01 May 2009 12:47:35 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 01 May 2009 11:41:34 -0400, HK wrote:

thunder wrote:
On Fri, 01 May 2009 08:26:44 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote:


If you had a gasoline electric a 30 year old truck would be in the junk
by now because of the cost of replacing the battery. From what I have
heard they have to be replaced every 6 to 8 years depending on use. With
that rate of depreciation they become disposable. Every one know the
cost of replacing batteries in your old laptop.

Geez, if everyone was as negative about new technologies as you are, we
would still be driving horse and buggies, and forget computers. Still,
they are now getting 100,000 miles out of present battery technology, and
with standardization, and future innovations, battery life will improve
and cost will come down. Remember the cost of those older laptops?


What's really sad to me is that in the late 1970's, GM or Ford or
Chrysler could have decided to allocate enough funds to develop the sort
of batteries we need now to make "electric" cars affordable and
practical. Twenty five years of solid, advancing development would have
made a real difference for us by now.

Battery technology has moved about as fast as the "battery" industry
can move, not for cars but for portable electronics. Cars can
bootstrap off of that. The real problem is electric cars only move
that load from the gas pump to the electrical grid where we burn coal.
Cars are cleaner than coal.

Probably not for CO2. Coal power plant efficiency is about 40%.
Gas engines are about 20%.
Those figures are from
http://www.defenddemocracy.org/index...3 &Itemid=102
There are other cites out there that might conflict, but because IC
engines are so inefficient in converting fuel to power, there are
"surprising" advantages to electric power.
In the U.S electric power transmission losses are about 7%.
That's pretty well established.
There are misconceptions about this because most people don't realize
how inefficient gasoline engines are compared to modern electric
generation plants burning fossil fuels.
Even though mileage is way up from older cars/engines, IC is still
real inefficient.
I remember reading about a possible cure for heat loss 40 years ago in
Pop Mech. High-temp ceramic engines. Guess that was just a
pipe-dream.
As a former boilerman, I can tell you that even the Navy burning cheap
black oil took heat conservation very seriously in the design of steam
powerplants. The Navy mostly gave up on steam for propulsion, but I
bet their fuel costs are much higher than in the past.
Steam is still king for power generating plants.
Of course there are other emissions from coal/gas plants, but
scrubbing can eliminate most of them.

People think electric cars are "free" but your typical little electric
econobox will take somewhere between 20kwh and 40kwh depending on
typical battery packs (14 or 28 6v batteries @ 240ah each). My
electric bill would be $5 for the 28 battery "100 mile" car. Since the
same Honda Civic (a popular electric conversion) would get about 30MPG
on gas, it is pretty much a wash ... I didn't pay the road tax yet.
Some states are already trying to find a way to road tax electrics.
Better batteries might extend range by storing more energy but you
still have to pay for the energy.

I don't think anybody that puts a plug in or flips a switch thinks
electricity is free. They've paid plenty of electric bills.

Current lead batteries, a very mature technology, are only expected
to have 600-800 charge cycles and they are $100 each. That adds $3.50
to your $5 charge or 8 1/2 cents a mile for the 100 mile car.
The Li/on batteries in the Tesla are so expensive they don't even like
to talk about it.
I know these are off the cuff numbers but I have been looking into
converting my old Prelude (a Civic in a sport jacket) to electric and
I have been looking at what is out there. Even if I am off by a factor
of two it is still hard to get the numbers to come out.

It all depends on the electricity and gas prices.
If gas goes to 5 bucks a gallon and the electric rates stay constant
it's a new ball game. With the nukes in Florida I think your rates
are low, aren't they?

When you read the web sites that cater to electric car enthusiasts
they all tell you, "don't plan on this being a cheap hobby".

I think the Prius batteries have proven to go well over 100k miles.
Aren't the newer models plug-in? If they are, can't they be used for
retrofitting the home-mades?

--Vic

On Fri, 01 May 2009 15:49:28 -0400, wrote:


If golf cart batteries cost $2800 a set, how much do you figure high
tech batteries cost? If you could really get 100 miles out of a charge
(go slow and you can) and they will take 600-800 charge cycles that
works out to 60,000-80,000 miles a set.
That is where I got my numbers.

Yeah, I did a bit more googling. The Prius plug-in isn't out yet, and
has a 6-mile range as EV only. NiMh. 220 pounds of battery.
Didn't see how many recharge cycles it's good for.
Think I once saw the current hybrid battery is about $3k, and this one
probably costs more.

I have really looked at this. I have a cam belt that they say will go
some day. It is $1000 at the dealer to get it replaced and I am really
thinking about just running it till it blows and going electric
($4,000-5000). The problem is the thing will never pay for itself in
savings unless gas goes to $10 a gallon and I keep the car for 60,000
more miles only driving in a 30-40 mile radius. (never going over
about 45-50 mph)
It just seems unlikely that could happen.
Maybe if I win the lotto

$1000 sounds high for a cam belt change. Is that a 4-wheel steering
'lude? If the engine is decent, I'd get the belt.
Put the golf cart batteries in a golf cart.
You're in a good place for solar cells. Doing any of that?
With a small home-made EV you can do all your local driving on Sol's
dime.

--Vic

jps wrote:

A heap for a truck definitely makes folks think twice about gettin'
too close. Before I had the exhaust redone it had a nasty hole
pre-muffler that was good for attracting attention and scaring the
crap out of nearby drivers and pedestrians.

Did it sound like a gunshot?

Johnson

wrote:
On Fri, 01 May 2009 11:41:34 -0400, HK wrote:

thunder wrote:
On Fri, 01 May 2009 08:26:44 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote:


If you had a gasoline electric a 30 year old truck would be in the junk
by now because of the cost of replacing the battery. From what I have
heard they have to be replaced every 6 to 8 years depending on use. With
that rate of depreciation they become disposable. Every one know the
cost of replacing batteries in your old laptop.
Geez, if everyone was as negative about new technologies as you are, we
would still be driving horse and buggies, and forget computers. Still,
they are now getting 100,000 miles out of present battery technology, and
with standardization, and future innovations, battery life will improve
and cost will come down. Remember the cost of those older laptops?

What's really sad to me is that in the late 1970's, GM or Ford or
Chrysler could have decided to allocate enough funds to develop the sort
of batteries we need now to make "electric" cars affordable and
practical. Twenty five years of solid, advancing development would have
made a real difference for us by now.

Battery technology has moved about as fast as the "battery" industry
can move, not for cars but for portable electronics. Cars can
bootstrap off of that. The real problem is electric cars only move
that load from the gas pump to the electrical grid where we burn coal.
Cars are cleaner than coal.
People think electric cars are "free" but your typical little electric
econobox will take somewhere between 20kwh and 40kwh depending on
typical battery packs (14 or 28 6v batteries @ 240ah each). My
electric bill would be $5 for the 28 battery "100 mile" car. Since the
same Honda Civic (a popular electric conversion) would get about 30MPG
on gas, it is pretty much a wash ... I didn't pay the road tax yet.
Some states are already trying to find a way to road tax electrics.
Better batteries might extend range by storing more energy but you
still have to pay for the energy.
Current lead batteries, a very mature technology, are only expected
to have 600-800 charge cycles and they are $100 each. That adds $3.50
to your $5 charge or 8 1/2 cents a mile for the 100 mile car.
The Li/on batteries in the Tesla are so expensive they don't even like
to talk about it.

Energy is energy whether it comes from oil or coal it still has to be
burned to make the wheels turn. Cars, trucks and trains its all the same.

The problem in the automotive electric industry is the heat produced
when the batteries are being discharged when the vehicle is being operated.

I know these are off the cuff numbers but I have been looking into
converting my old Prelude (a Civic in a sport jacket) to electric and
I have been looking at what is out there. Even if I am off by a factor
of two it is still hard to get the numbers to come out.

Bite your tongue. My Prelude was not a Civic in a sport jacket. When I
put V rated tires on the Prelude it became a real fun ride. Cloverleaf
exits at 80 mph.

When you read the web sites that cater to electric car enthusiasts
they all tell you, "don't plan on this being a cheap hobby".

Carrying a fire extinguisher isn't going to stop the electrical fire
either.

"Johnson" wrote in message
...
jps wrote:

A heap for a truck definitely makes folks think twice about gettin'
too close. Before I had the exhaust redone it had a nasty hole
pre-muffler that was good for attracting attention and scaring the
crap out of nearby drivers and pedestrians.

Did it sound like a gunshot?

Johnson


Remember what we did as kids with new licenses? Drove Dad's car down the
street at speed and shut the ignition switch off for a few seconds, then
turned it back on.
The build up of fuel in the exhaust system usually blew a hole in the
muffler if you were successful. Instant hot rod.

Eisboch