On Fri, 01 May 2009 12:47:35 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 01 May 2009 11:41:34 -0400, HK wrote:

thunder wrote:
On Fri, 01 May 2009 08:26:44 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote:


If you had a gasoline electric a 30 year old truck would be in the junk
by now because of the cost of replacing the battery. From what I have
heard they have to be replaced every 6 to 8 years depending on use. With
that rate of depreciation they become disposable. Every one know the
cost of replacing batteries in your old laptop.

Geez, if everyone was as negative about new technologies as you are, we
would still be driving horse and buggies, and forget computers. Still,
they are now getting 100,000 miles out of present battery technology, and
with standardization, and future innovations, battery life will improve
and cost will come down. Remember the cost of those older laptops?


What's really sad to me is that in the late 1970's, GM or Ford or
Chrysler could have decided to allocate enough funds to develop the sort
of batteries we need now to make "electric" cars affordable and
practical. Twenty five years of solid, advancing development would have
made a real difference for us by now.

Battery technology has moved about as fast as the "battery" industry
can move, not for cars but for portable electronics. Cars can
bootstrap off of that. The real problem is electric cars only move
that load from the gas pump to the electrical grid where we burn coal.
Cars are cleaner than coal.

Probably not for CO2. Coal power plant efficiency is about 40%.
Gas engines are about 20%.
Those figures are from
http://www.defenddemocracy.org/index...3 &Itemid=102
There are other cites out there that might conflict, but because IC
engines are so inefficient in converting fuel to power, there are
"surprising" advantages to electric power.
In the U.S electric power transmission losses are about 7%.
That's pretty well established.
There are misconceptions about this because most people don't realize
how inefficient gasoline engines are compared to modern electric
generation plants burning fossil fuels.
Even though mileage is way up from older cars/engines, IC is still
real inefficient.
I remember reading about a possible cure for heat loss 40 years ago in
Pop Mech. High-temp ceramic engines. Guess that was just a
pipe-dream.
As a former boilerman, I can tell you that even the Navy burning cheap
black oil took heat conservation very seriously in the design of steam
powerplants. The Navy mostly gave up on steam for propulsion, but I
bet their fuel costs are much higher than in the past.
Steam is still king for power generating plants.
Of course there are other emissions from coal/gas plants, but
scrubbing can eliminate most of them.

People think electric cars are "free" but your typical little electric
econobox will take somewhere between 20kwh and 40kwh depending on
typical battery packs (14 or 28 6v batteries @ 240ah each). My
electric bill would be $5 for the 28 battery "100 mile" car. Since the
same Honda Civic (a popular electric conversion) would get about 30MPG
on gas, it is pretty much a wash ... I didn't pay the road tax yet.
Some states are already trying to find a way to road tax electrics.
Better batteries might extend range by storing more energy but you
still have to pay for the energy.

I don't think anybody that puts a plug in or flips a switch thinks
electricity is free. They've paid plenty of electric bills.

Current lead batteries, a very mature technology, are only expected
to have 600-800 charge cycles and they are $100 each. That adds $3.50
to your $5 charge or 8 1/2 cents a mile for the 100 mile car.
The Li/on batteries in the Tesla are so expensive they don't even like
to talk about it.
I know these are off the cuff numbers but I have been looking into
converting my old Prelude (a Civic in a sport jacket) to electric and
I have been looking at what is out there. Even if I am off by a factor
of two it is still hard to get the numbers to come out.

It all depends on the electricity and gas prices.
If gas goes to 5 bucks a gallon and the electric rates stay constant
it's a new ball game. With the nukes in Florida I think your rates
are low, aren't they?

When you read the web sites that cater to electric car enthusiasts
they all tell you, "don't plan on this being a cheap hobby".

I think the Prius batteries have proven to go well over 100k miles.
Aren't the newer models plug-in? If they are, can't they be used for
retrofitting the home-mades?

--Vic