SteveB wrote:

Can someone give me the short answer on if this TC-WII Johnson oil is good
to use in my '89 Merc 4 cyl TWO STROKE motor?
Is there a discernable difference between TC-WII and TC-W3 oil?

Very Quickly then...

TCW = Two cycle water cooled. That means it's an 'ashless' oil and
should NEVER be run in PWC type engines. It also means you NEVER run a
lawnmower or chain saw oil in your outboard. I am NOT going to
entertain debate about what's hype what's crap etc. I will simply state
the following:

I have been inside engines for all of my adult life (and all my teens
too I guess) and can tell you there IS a difference. Just because an oil
meets the spec, doesn't mean it's the best oil you can buy. OEM oils
have more beneficial additives in them than straight spec non-OEM stuff.
Do they make their own oil? No, but they require the oil companies to
make their oil to their spec, and further prevent them from selling that
spec oil as aftermarket. Does it cost that much extra to make? Nope, but
there is no middle ground. You want their special additive packages that
costs an extra nickel, you get to pay through the nose - no argument there.

In final answer to your question, if you have TCW-2 oil, it's VERY old
and worth 50 cents less than you paid for it. ;-)

Now stop being so damn cheap and go enjoy your boat will ya? ;-)

--
Regards,
Dave Brown
Brown's Marina Ltd
http://brownsmarina.com/

"Dave Brown" wrote in message
...
SteveB wrote:

Can someone give me the short answer on if this TC-WII Johnson oil is
good to use in my '89 Merc 4 cyl TWO STROKE motor?
Is there a discernable difference between TC-WII and TC-W3 oil?

Very Quickly then...

TCW = Two cycle water cooled. That means it's an 'ashless' oil and should
NEVER be run in PWC type engines. It also means you NEVER run a lawnmower
or chain saw oil in your outboard. I am NOT going to entertain debate
about what's hype what's crap etc. I will simply state the following:

I have been inside engines for all of my adult life (and all my teens too
I guess) and can tell you there IS a difference. Just because an oil meets
the spec, doesn't mean it's the best oil you can buy. OEM oils have more
beneficial additives in them than straight spec non-OEM stuff. Do they
make their own oil? No, but they require the oil companies to make their
oil to their spec, and further prevent them from selling that spec oil as
aftermarket. Does it cost that much extra to make? Nope, but there is no
middle ground. You want their special additive packages that costs an
extra nickel, you get to pay through the nose - no argument there.

In final answer to your question, if you have TCW-2 oil, it's VERY old and
worth 50 cents less than you paid for it. ;-)

Now stop being so damn cheap and go enjoy your boat will ya? ;-)

--
Total tripe. Straight from the yamaha pwc manual "if yamalube is not
available, any twc3 oil may be used.". You're right, nothing to debate,
you're just plain wrong. Hell, we were running ashless oil in our dirt
bikes 30 years ago. And there's nothing different about the manufacturer
brand oil except the price, you pay through the nose for it.

jamesgangnc wrote:

Total tripe. Straight from the yamaha pwc manual "if yamalube is not
available, any twc3 oil may be used.". You're right, nothing to debate,
you're just plain wrong. Hell, we were running ashless oil in our dirt
bikes 30 years ago. And there's nothing different about the manufacturer
brand oil except the price, you pay through the nose for it.

James,

Please accept my sincere apologies for not following what is now normal
decorum in this NG. I do my best to participate when I think I can add
meaningful insight to those who seek it, and I bow out when it's clear
people want to draw me into something else.

As an aside, BRP is quite specific in their Sea-Doo manuals about TCW-3
oils NOT be used as alternatives, but since I am not a PWC dealer I
shall step aside to let you have the floor on this matter if you wish.

A quick thank you is in order as well. I took a quick trip down memory
lane by googling my name in reference to this Newsgroup and found some
stuff from the 90's.


--
Regards,
Dave Brown
Brown's Marina Ltd
http://brownsmarina.com/

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
"Dave Brown" wrote in message
...
SteveB wrote:

Can someone give me the short answer on if this TC-WII Johnson oil is
good to use in my '89 Merc 4 cyl TWO STROKE motor?
Is there a discernable difference between TC-WII and TC-W3 oil?

Very Quickly then...

TCW = Two cycle water cooled. That means it's an 'ashless' oil and
should NEVER be run in PWC type engines. It also means you NEVER run a
lawnmower or chain saw oil in your outboard. I am NOT going to entertain
debate about what's hype what's crap etc. I will simply state the
following:

I have been inside engines for all of my adult life (and all my teens too
I guess) and can tell you there IS a difference. Just because an oil
meets the spec, doesn't mean it's the best oil you can buy. OEM oils have
more beneficial additives in them than straight spec non-OEM stuff. Do
they make their own oil? No, but they require the oil companies to make
their oil to their spec, and further prevent them from selling that spec
oil as aftermarket. Does it cost that much extra to make? Nope, but there
is no middle ground. You want their special additive packages that costs
an extra nickel, you get to pay through the nose - no argument there.

In final answer to your question, if you have TCW-2 oil, it's VERY old
and worth 50 cents less than you paid for it. ;-)

Now stop being so damn cheap and go enjoy your boat will ya? ;-)

--
Total tripe. Straight from the yamaha pwc manual "if yamalube is not
available, any twc3 oil may be used.". You're right, nothing to debate,
you're just plain wrong. Hell, we were running ashless oil in our dirt
bikes 30 years ago. And there's nothing different about the manufacturer
brand oil except the price, you pay through the nose for it.


I don't know. I think different "blenders" may have better quality control,
etc.
There is (or used to be) a law that required manufacturers to supply
consumables like oil for free, *if* the manufacturer specified a specific
brand name as being the only type that could be used. That may be the
reason for the blurb in your Yamaha manual.

I had an '06 BMW M5 that BMW *required* a special Mobil 1 synthetic blend
designed for racing engines. The 500 hp M5 engine drank oil like it drank
gas and required frequent oil replacement. I thought the BMW dealer was
being nice by giving me oil free whenever I needed any, but it turns out
they were required by law to do so.

Eisboch

On Mar 18, 10:10*am, Dave Brown wrote:
SteveB wrote:
Can someone give me the short answer on if this TC-WII Johnson oil is good
to use in my '89 Merc 4 cyl TWO STROKE motor?
Is there a discernable difference between TC-WII and TC-W3 oil?

Very Quickly then...

TCW = Two cycle water cooled. *That means it's an 'ashless' oil and
should NEVER be run in PWC type engines. It also means you NEVER run a
lawnmower or chain saw oil in your outboard. *I am NOT going to
entertain debate about what's hype what's crap etc. I will simply state
the following:

I have been inside engines for all of my adult life (and all my teens
too I guess) and can tell you there IS a difference. Just because an oil
meets the spec, doesn't mean it's the best oil you can buy. OEM oils
have more beneficial additives in them than straight spec non-OEM stuff.
Do they make their own oil? No, but they require the oil companies to
make their oil to their spec, and further prevent them from selling that
spec oil as aftermarket. Does it cost that much extra to make? Nope, but
there is no middle ground. You want their special additive packages that
costs an extra nickel, you get to pay through the nose - no argument there.

I'm not going to debate you either, but there are a few other points
to ponder...

The additive package is specified by the OEM, but that doesn't mean
it's any better that the oil company's own additive mixture. In fact,
the motor OEM really doesn't have any reason to make their motor last
any longer than the warranty period... they make far more money on
motor sales than oil sales. The oil manufacturers, i.e Penzoil, *do*
rely on their reputation as an oil supplier. They *do* have a reason
to make good oil. It's their main business. Add another 2 cents of
good additives above the OEM package and they're good to go.

The OEM don't really "require" anyone to do anything when making their
OEM oil, anyway. They go out for bid on a certain color oil bottle
with the logo placed just so, with, in your words, an additive package
that "costs an extra nickel", then they charge twice what the oil
company's TC-W3 goes for. All for the LOWEST BID oil to be used in a
motor that they hope wears out soon so you'll buy another.

Now stop being so damn cheap and go enjoy your boat will ya? ;-)

Being a dealer and making your living selling marine equipment and
overpriced oil, would you be a bit biased in your recommendation?
Nah... :-)

Regards,
* * * Dave Brown
* * * Brown's Marina Ltd
* * *http://brownsmarina.com/

wrote:

The additive package is specified by the OEM, but that doesn't mean
it's any better that the oil company's own additive mixture.

Here's one example to at least show my position. BRP's TCW-3 contains
the additive "Carbon Guard" which is also available separately as a
bottled product through its dealers. It's a product I not only believe
in, it's what I use to clean my pistons when rebuilding. I have said
lots on this topic before and I'm afraid I just don't have the time to
re-type it all again - where is Dejanews when you need it? ;-)


In fact,
the motor OEM really doesn't have any reason to make their motor last
any longer than the warranty period... they make far more money on
motor sales than oil sales. The oil manufacturers, i.e Penzoil, *do*
rely on their reputation as an oil supplier. They *do* have a reason
to make good oil. It's their main business. Add another 2 cents of
good additives above the OEM package and they're good to go.

Yes and no. The oil companies RARELY get blamed for an oil failure, and
the truth is, there are few if any true oil quality related failures in
the short term in my business. Where I see the result is years of using
crappy oil that causes carbon build up and 'coking' which cause
detonation and piston failure. People NEVER blame the oil for that, it's
always the OEM that takes it in the pants at the watering hole.

The OEM don't really "require" anyone to do anything when making their
OEM oil, anyway. They go out for bid on a certain color oil bottle
with the logo placed just so, with, in your words, an additive package
that "costs an extra nickel", then they charge twice what the oil
company's TC-W3 goes for. All for the LOWEST BID oil to be used in a
motor that they hope wears out soon so you'll buy another.

I would have to agree to disagree then. I do honestly agree that the oil
is better, but concede the cost of the better product is out of
proportion to the price. I would still pay to get it. You have no idea
of the warranty issues we have with aftermarket parts/products and if
people think they're 'just as good' they should stop in and see the pile
of crap from China sitting on my office floor that the aftermarket guys
are fighting me on. I refuse to use it anymore.

Being a dealer and making your living selling marine equipment and
overpriced oil, would you be a bit biased in your recommendation?
Nah... :-)

I know that's tongue in cheek jab, but I really do get tired of having
to defend my position regarding bias. This NG is international in scope
and what I say in here doesn't make me a single penny (although there is
certainly a cost to productivity at my desk). I have spent most of my
life educating boaters about the correct choices to make, and in the end
it really and truly doesn't matter to me what choice they make once they
have full information. I'd like to think my contributions to this NG
(when I can filter through the crap) merit at least some indication of
my credibility, plus I have "Tech Tip" pages where again, I didn't make
a penny writing any of it, nor do I make anything every time someone
reads and benefits from it (they are the busiest pages on my site BTW).

I better get back to work now.... ;-)

--
Regards,
Dave Brown
Brown's Marina Ltd
http://brownsmarina.com/

Dave Brown wrote:
wrote:

The additive package is specified by the OEM, but that doesn't mean
it's any better that the oil company's own additive mixture.

Here's one example to at least show my position. BRP's TCW-3 contains
the additive "Carbon Guard" which is also available separately as a
bottled product through its dealers. It's a product I not only believe
in, it's what I use to clean my pistons when rebuilding. I have said
lots on this topic before and I'm afraid I just don't have the time to
re-type it all again - where is Dejanews when you need it? ;-)


In fact,
the motor OEM really doesn't have any reason to make their motor last
any longer than the warranty period... they make far more money on
motor sales than oil sales. The oil manufacturers, i.e Penzoil, *do*
rely on their reputation as an oil supplier. They *do* have a reason
to make good oil. It's their main business. Add another 2 cents of
good additives above the OEM package and they're good to go.

Yes and no. The oil companies RARELY get blamed for an oil failure, and
the truth is, there are few if any true oil quality related failures in
the short term in my business. Where I see the result is years of using
crappy oil that causes carbon build up and 'coking' which cause
detonation and piston failure. People NEVER blame the oil for that, it's
always the OEM that takes it in the pants at the watering hole.

The OEM don't really "require" anyone to do anything when making their
OEM oil, anyway. They go out for bid on a certain color oil bottle
with the logo placed just so, with, in your words, an additive package
that "costs an extra nickel", then they charge twice what the oil
company's TC-W3 goes for. All for the LOWEST BID oil to be used in a
motor that they hope wears out soon so you'll buy another.

I would have to agree to disagree then. I do honestly agree that the oil
is better, but concede the cost of the better product is out of
proportion to the price. I would still pay to get it. You have no idea
of the warranty issues we have with aftermarket parts/products and if
people think they're 'just as good' they should stop in and see the pile
of crap from China sitting on my office floor that the aftermarket guys
are fighting me on. I refuse to use it anymore.

Being a dealer and making your living selling marine equipment and
overpriced oil, would you be a bit biased in your recommendation?
Nah... :-)

I know that's tongue in cheek jab, but I really do get tired of having
to defend my position regarding bias. This NG is international in scope
and what I say in here doesn't make me a single penny (although there is
certainly a cost to productivity at my desk). I have spent most of my
life educating boaters about the correct choices to make, and in the end
it really and truly doesn't matter to me what choice they make once they
have full information. I'd like to think my contributions to this NG
(when I can filter through the crap) merit at least some indication of
my credibility, plus I have "Tech Tip" pages where again, I didn't make
a penny writing any of it, nor do I make anything every time someone
reads and benefits from it (they are the busiest pages on my site BTW).

I better get back to work now.... ;-)



Crikey! (my nod to internationalism)

I had a series of Merc two cycles, and never ever used used anything
except the manufacturer's correct and branded oil. The two dealers I
patronized bought their oil in bulk and decanted it into one gallon jugs.

I don't recall the price difference between the Merc-branded oil and the
non-motor-brand stuff, but it wasn't very significant. More important, I
didn't think the price of the oil was a significant factor in the
considerations of what to use in an $8000 (at the time) outboard motor.

I have a four cycle outboard now. The dealer changes the oil and filter
for me at the end of the season, and I can change both mid-season if
need be. I believe the selling price of my current engine is about
$11000 or so. Too expensive for my puttering.

If it is under the hood, I let the dealer handle it.



--
Appearing via Thunderbird on an iMac 3.06
or a Macbook Pro 2.4, running Mac OS 10.56,
*or* Microsoft VISTA through BootCamp.

On Mar 18, 4:42*pm, HK wrote:
Dave Brown wrote:
wrote:

The additive package is specified by the OEM, but that doesn't mean
it's any better that the oil company's own additive mixture.

Here's one example to at least show my position. BRP's TCW-3 contains
the additive "Carbon Guard" which is also available separately as a
bottled product through its dealers. It's a product I not only believe
in, it's what I use to clean my pistons when rebuilding. I have said
lots on this topic before and I'm afraid I just don't have the time to
re-type it all again - where is Dejanews when you need it? ;-)

In fact,
the motor OEM really doesn't have any reason to make their motor last
any longer than the warranty period... they make far more money on
motor sales than oil sales. *The oil manufacturers, i.e Penzoil, *do*
rely on their reputation as an oil supplier. *They *do* have a reason
to make good oil. *It's their main business. *Add another 2 cents of
good additives above the OEM package and they're good to go.

Yes and no. The oil companies RARELY get blamed for an oil failure, and
the truth is, there are few if any true oil quality related failures in
the short term in my business. Where I see the result is years of using
crappy oil that causes carbon build up and 'coking' which cause
detonation and piston failure. People NEVER blame the oil for that, it's
always the OEM that takes it in the pants at the watering hole.

The OEM don't really "require" anyone to do anything when making their
OEM oil, anyway. *They go out for bid on a certain color oil bottle
with the logo placed just so, with, in your words, an additive package
that "costs an extra nickel", then they charge twice what the oil
company's TC-W3 goes for. *All for the LOWEST BID oil to be used in a
motor that they hope wears out soon so you'll buy another.

I would have to agree to disagree then. I do honestly agree that the oil
is better, but concede the cost of the better product is out of
proportion to the price. I would still pay to get it. You have no idea
of the warranty issues we have with aftermarket parts/products and if
people think they're 'just as good' they should stop in and see the pile
of crap from China sitting on my office floor that the aftermarket guys
are fighting me on. I refuse to use it anymore.

Being a dealer and making your living selling marine equipment and
overpriced oil, would you be a bit biased in your recommendation?
Nah... :-)

I know that's tongue in cheek jab, but I really do get tired of having
to defend my position regarding bias. This NG is international in scope
and what I say in here doesn't make me a single penny (although there is
certainly a cost to productivity at my desk). I have spent most of my
life educating boaters about the correct choices to make, and in the end
it really and truly doesn't matter to me what choice they make once they
have full information. I'd like to think my contributions to this NG
(when I can filter through the crap) merit at least some indication of
my credibility, plus I have "Tech Tip" pages where again, I didn't make
a penny writing any of it, nor do I make anything every time someone
reads and benefits from it (they are the busiest pages on my site BTW).

I better get back to work now.... ;-)

Crikey! (my nod to internationalism)

I had a series of Merc two cycles, and never ever used used anything
except the manufacturer's correct and branded oil. The two dealers I
patronized bought their oil in bulk and decanted it into one gallon jugs.

I don't recall the price difference between the Merc-branded oil and the
non-motor-brand stuff, but it wasn't very significant. More important, I
didn't think the price of the oil was a significant factor in the
considerations of what to use in an $8000 (at the time) outboard motor.

I have a four cycle outboard now. The dealer changes the oil and filter
for me at the end of the season, and I can change both mid-season if
need be. I believe the selling price of my current engine is about
$11000 or so. Too expensive for my puttering.

If it is under the hood, I let the dealer handle it.

--
Appearing via Thunderbird on an iMac 3.06
or a Macbook Pro 2.4, running Mac OS 10.56,
*or* Microsoft VISTA through BootCamp.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wait a minute. You have claimed to have a degree in Mechanical
Engineering and are afraid to do anything to something as simple as an
outboard motor??????

Appearing via Google on an ordinary laptop
or an ordinary desktop running Windows XP
*or* Windows XP Media

On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:42:24 -0400, HK wrote:

considerations of what to use in an $8000 (at the time) outboard motor.

I have a four cycle outboard now. The dealer changes the oil and filter
for me at the end of the season, and I can change both mid-season if
need be. I believe the selling price of my current engine is about
$11000 or so.

My wife's Lincoln has a 330 cid four cam 32 valve motor. It developed
a leaky valve guide at 175k. We figured the handwriting was on the
wall, and put in another motor for 5500. The replacement mill has a
75k warranty. Why are outboats so pricy? The motor in my wife's truck
would make a nice inboard motor, for less than 11 000. In the
Navigator they rate it at 300 hp.

Casady

On Mar 18, 5:32*pm, Dave Brown wrote:

You have no idea
of the warranty issues we have with aftermarket parts/products and if
people think they're 'just as good' they should stop in and see the pile
of crap from China sitting on my office floor that the aftermarket guys
are fighting me on. I refuse to use it anymore.

I agree on the influx of aftermarket cheap Chinese crap, but that's
not what we're talking about. Penzoil/Mobil/Havoline/whatever TC-W3
isn't aftermarket, it's top-shelf, brand name oil. I don't know who
made the oil in the Yamalube bottle. It could even be a Chinese oil
company that got the contract this year.


Being a dealer and making your living selling marine equipment and
overpriced oil, would you be a bit biased in your recommendation?
Nah... :-)

I know that's tongue in cheek jab, but I really do get tired of having
to defend my position regarding bias.

Not attacking you, just presenting an opposing view, with a good-
natured, and maybe partially valid jab. I wouldn't expect you to sell
a product if you didn't believe in it, no matter how well (or un)
founded those beliefs are. :-)

Happy boating!