"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Ahhh 401k's.... Too bad about those.


That's one of the reasons why many people are having trouble being
forced to ante up tax dollars to
save GM and it's union in their current form and contractual
relationships. The "majority" are watching their own retirement
investments tank, and are concerned about their jobs, their families,
their financial stability.

If you are still employed where your 401k is located and operating, is
there a mechanism to withdraw those funds without withholding or tax
penalty, and put them into another sort of tax deferred account, some
sort of IRA, where you have some say over where the funds are invested?
I wouldn't trust "the market" with my retirement funds, but I might
trust a federally insurance bank or banks.


I don't know. I don't have a 401K. I know that they may be "rolled
over" when you change employment, but I don't know how it all works.
But that's not the current problem. The problem is that those *with*
401K type plans who have been faithfully contributing for their
retirement nest egg have seen the values of their portfolios drop by
20,30 or even 40 percent in the past few months. Many can no longer
afford to retire, let alone help bail out GM and a union member's
generous employment benefits. Again, this represents the vast *majority*
of people, typically working for small businesses.

Eisboch

I understand *that* problem...I'm wondering what *those people* who no
longer believe in "the market" can do to prevent further losses in their
401k portfolios. I would want to withdraw the funds and put them into
something with more integrity than the stock market.

You know congress isn't going to bail out peoples 401k plan, but GM &
Chrysler is OK.

This smacks of Venezuela corruption. Chrysler for example, bought by
Cerberus, stripped out the cash and good parts, repackages the turkey and
congress bails it out at tax payers expense. And which bank was it that got
loan money and then went and bought a Spanish bank?

Americans should be protesting. Sounds like voters no longer mater a damn.

On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 20:47:08 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:54:11 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

"Boater" wrote in message
...

They don't design the cars and trucks, they just build what they told to
build.
Kinda like Lemmings with an attitude, huh?

Figures.

Can we get back to talking about Supreme Beings - meaning of course,
me.

It is all about me you know.

Some Supreme Being. You called the election wrong.

A truly Supreme Being is all things - including occasionally wrong.

And you still need to get a sense of humor.

Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
I do think Ford and GM would be better off, as would their workers,
if good foreign management took over there, management from Japan or
Korea. with buyouts for the current organized employees, and a new
unionized deal for new hires, with a quality "national" health care
plan so the employers aren't burdened with that.

I have no faith in U.S. corporate management and its B-school mentality.



Overall, I agree. I am not sure that fresh, innovative management
cannot be found here in the US, but I won't argue the need to get away
from traditional business and MBA concepts.

I also believe in and respect the concept of a contract. The current
organized employees need to be considered and fairly treated.
However, contracts, by design, can be renegotiated, particularly in
troubled times when absolute adherence to them puts the whole
operation at risk.

I couldn't agree more that businesses should not be the administrators
of health plans.

Eisboch



I haven't seen the numbers, but I wonder what American corporations
would have to do if they were required to fund their pension liabilities.

My union's pension fund has *no* unfunded liabilities, and we intend to
keep it that way, for moral and legal reasons. The hourly contributions
go where they are supposed to go, and, even though we do not invest in
stocks, we are still several percentage points ahead in earnings so that
we can handle distributions.

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 20:47:08 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:54:11 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

"Boater" wrote in message
...

They don't design the cars and trucks, they just build what they told to
build.
Kinda like Lemmings with an attitude, huh?

Figures.
Can we get back to talking about Supreme Beings - meaning of course,
me.

It is all about me you know.
Some Supreme Being. You called the election wrong.

A truly Supreme Being is all things - including occasionally wrong.

And you still need to get a sense of humor.


I'll laugh when I see the heads of some corporate execs on pikes.

Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Ahhh 401k's.... Too bad about those.



That's one of the reasons why many people are having trouble being
forced to ante up tax dollars to
save GM and it's union in their current form and contractual
relationships. The "majority" are watching their own retirement
investments tank, and are concerned about their jobs, their families,
their financial stability.



If you are still employed where your 401k is located and operating, is
there a mechanism to withdraw those funds without withholding or tax
penalty, and put them into another sort of tax deferred account, some
sort of IRA, where you have some say over where the funds are invested?
I wouldn't trust "the market" with my retirement funds, but I might
trust a federally insurance bank or banks.


Are you that clueless? Do you know what the difference between a 401k
and an IRA is?

I guess you should get your buddies in Congress to have a mattress
account in every 401k.

Boater wrote:
Don White wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
...
"Boater" wrote in message
...
I understand *that* problem...I'm wondering what *those people* who
no longer believe in "the market" can do to prevent further losses
in their 401k portfolios. I would want to withdraw the funds and put
them into something with more integrity than the stock market.

That's a question asked everyday on the various financial planning TV
and radio talk shows.
Without exception, all the "experts" advise people to leave their
investments alone.
They sometimes recommend shifting to less risky, lower yield type
investments, but they all say *DO NOT* take your money out.

I don't know. I keep mine in a hidden mattress.

Eisboch


Being a somewhat cynical person, I wonder whos' best interests those
financial people are looking after...the poor sap who sees his
investment shrinking with every monthy report...or the system they've
set up with their rich fee structure.



Gee, that's a toughie! :)

Fee's'R'Us.

Same sort of advice you'll get from "financial advisers" who sell
product. They're going to sell you the products that generate fees for
them.

Where are the unions pension fund's invested? Do you they get to buy
the shares for free?

Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 09:18:33 -0600, wrote:

On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 08:52:25 -0500, Eisboch wrote:


They may have 401k's and/or similar and may make some form of matching
contributions, along with matching contributions to SS benefits.
That's about it, and that's how the majority of people plan for
retirement.
Funny, I haven't heard much talk of "privatizing" Social Security
lately. I wonder why that is. ;-(

Savings and SS were the factors I used in planning retirement.
Never bought into the equity craze.

All of my planning for retirement has been under the assumption that SS
will be empty when I can start collecting. I look at any SS money I get
as icing on my cake.

Jim wrote:
Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 04:32:22 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

"Boater" wrote in message
...
My understanding is that the Toyota we have was not built by
non-union
workers in the USA.

Why did I choose it? Because at the time I purchased it, the
corresponding
Ford and GM vehicles were too large.

I assume you bought a used Tundra.

Eisboch

I believe he said he had a 4Runner.
--
John H.


Oh. I was wrong. I thought he mentioned a Tundra.
I assume it is an older, used model.

Eisboch


4Runner with 100,000 miles. Still in good shape, but only used as a
boat ramp tow vehicle these days. When we got it, Ford and GM didn't
make a mid-sized SUV with similar tow capacity, as I recall, and, of
course, I wouldn't take a Chrysler product on a bet, not with those
old-tech pushrod engines.

That was almost six years ago, though. I haven't stayed "current" with
what is being offered by Ford or GM these days. In fact, I'm not
really that interested in cars these days.

I do think Ford and GM would be better off, as would their workers, if
good foreign management took over there, management from Japan or
Korea. with buyouts for the current organized employees, and a new
unionized deal for new hires, with a quality "national" health care
plan so the employers aren't burdened with that.

I have no faith in U.S. corporate management and its B-school mentality.

Your lack of faith is apparent. GM is Better off in chapter 11 with no
bailout money. Pay the union members off with 10 cents per benefit
dollar and lock out the unions permanently. Executive bonus should be
tied to profit. Worker bonus and pay should be tied to individual
productivity. Simply put. "Earn your pay"

Executive bonuses should be paid out 5 years later.

On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:08:15 -0500, BAR wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 09:18:33 -0600, wrote:

On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 08:52:25 -0500, Eisboch wrote:


They may have 401k's and/or similar and may make some form of matching
contributions, along with matching contributions to SS benefits.
That's about it, and that's how the majority of people plan for
retirement.
Funny, I haven't heard much talk of "privatizing" Social Security
lately. I wonder why that is. ;-(

Savings and SS were the factors I used in planning retirement.
Never bought into the equity craze.

All of my planning for retirement has been under the assumption that SS
will be empty when I can start collecting. I look at any SS money I get
as icing on my cake.

Though it's a good strategy to look at SS as icing, if SS is empty so
will be bank deposits, the stock market, and the dollar. Simple
economic/political fact.
That's why it comes second after savings for me.
If that weren't true my retirement planning would have went into land
with good soil, trees, tools, livestock and guns.

--Vic

BAR wrote:
Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Ahhh 401k's.... Too bad about those.



That's one of the reasons why many people are having trouble being
forced to ante up tax dollars to
save GM and it's union in their current form and contractual
relationships. The "majority" are watching their own retirement
investments tank, and are concerned about their jobs, their families,
their financial stability.



If you are still employed where your 401k is located and operating, is
there a mechanism to withdraw those funds without withholding or tax
penalty, and put them into another sort of tax deferred account, some
sort of IRA, where you have some say over where the funds are invested?
I wouldn't trust "the market" with my retirement funds, but I might
trust a federally insurance bank or banks.


Are you that clueless? Do you know what the difference between a 401k
and an IRA is?

I guess you should get your buddies in Congress to have a mattress
account in every 401k.


What I was curious about was whether there was an escape valve for an
employee who wanted to get the hell out of 401k's and put his funds
somewhere reliable and rational. That's all. Yes, I know the difference.
Read for content, dropout.