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#11
posted to rec.boats.electronics
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Overspeed alarm based on alternator frequency
Look at any alternator output curve and you will see that amps increase as RPM increases up to the point where they approach full output and then level out. That point is usually between 2500 and 3500 shaft RPM. There are a very few very expensive alternators, like the Eco-Tech, that are built to produce close to full output at less than 2000 RPM that have a very steep curve but most alternators require a minimum 2500 RPM to reach any significant output. Look at the LN curve I've posted - it is not as stated above. Full output is at 5000 alt rpm and it then levels out. That said, the OP's choice of alternators may not be the best if he wants to charge at dead idle. The output curve has a particularly slow slope. He should also consider that it takes a certain amount of power to produce 85 amps. Besides the output, the other item on that chart he should consider is the Torque curve. When you use a pulley ratio that allows close to full output at 800 engine RPM the torque increases to the point that invites belt failure and excessive side loads on bearings. My engine can deliver up to 20kW at engine idle according to the makers engine manual - more than enough for the 2 - 3 kW taken by the alternator. Torque will also not be an issue with dual belts. |
#12
posted to rec.boats.electronics
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Overspeed alarm based on alternator frequency
Look at the LN curve I've posted - it is not as stated above. Full output is at 5000 alt rpm and it then levels out. That is what I meant about "OP's choice of alternators may not be the best ". That particular alternator has a relatively slow slope up to full power. My engine can deliver up to 20kW at engine idle according to the makers engine manual - more than enough for the 2 - 3 kW taken by the alternator. Torque will also not be an issue with dual belts. Off which end? My Yanmar can handle a lot of torque off the back end but the front crankshaft bearings are not designed to handle a lot of side load. Double belts will stop the slippage but a double pulley extends the center of load further from the bearing increasing the leverage of the side load. There is also the principle that diesel engines are much happier running at 1800 RPM than they are at 800. For many reasons running at idle under light loads for long periods is hard on diesels. I am not saying don't do it. Just that there are better ways to tackle the problem. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
#13
posted to rec.boats.electronics
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Overspeed alarm based on alternator frequency
Fundamental AC - the higher the freq (= more rpm) the greater the power
that can be transmitted. Which is why aircraft AC systems are often at 400Hz - smaller kit but higher power. I was explaining why aircraft sometimes use 400Hz AC -- because they can carry smaller transformers. I won't disagree that you can generate (not transmit) more power by spinning the alternator faster (up to a limit). "CS" wrote in message ups.com... Higher AC frequencies are good for transformers, but don't have an effect on the transmission of power reasonable distances and a boat is way smaller than that. But since your AC is being converted to DC, the transformer argument is irrelevant. I'm lost - I have not mentioned transformers??? And your AC frequency will be pretty high start with -- there's more than one cycle per rev. Yes, a 10 pole alt at 8000 rpm is generating AC at around 1332Hz. More A can be produced at 1332Hz than at 50Hz. |
#14
posted to rec.boats.electronics
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Overspeed alarm based on alternator frequency
Glenn Ashmore wrote: Look at the LN curve I've posted - it is not as stated above. Full output is at 5000 alt rpm and it then levels out. That is what I meant about "OP's choice of alternators may not be the best ". That particular alternator has a relatively slow slope up to full power. My engine can deliver up to 20kW at engine idle according to the makers engine manual - more than enough for the 2 - 3 kW taken by the alternator. Torque will also not be an issue with dual belts. Off which end? My Yanmar can handle a lot of torque off the back end but the front crankshaft bearings are not designed to handle a lot of side load. Double belts will stop the slippage but a double pulley extends the center of load further from the bearing increasing the leverage of the side load. Off the front crankshaft and or a PTO shaft. The engine is an 8 litre 6 cyl natural aspirated 160 Hp engine which weights 1000kg and is a proper industrial marine engine as used by fishing vessels - not a bleeding micky mouse Yanmar engine designed for pleasure yachts. I have done a certain amount of research and I am amazed by the complete rubbish being spouted about alternators. |
#15
posted to rec.boats.electronics
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Overspeed alarm based on alternator frequency
Colin,
Don't sweat the overspeed. Unfortunately, this engine is too new for my catalogues, but I and quite sure that it is using a Hitachi copy of a Bosch TE injection pump. This pump includes a controlling governor that not only controls the engine to produce the ordered crankshaft speed but also limits the speed to a safe maximum. The only way to exceed that speed is by introducing additional fuel (often that is injested lube oil) and it that occurs there is often little the operator can do without getting too close to the engine. I was glad to see that you are running double belts because that is just about and maybe a little bit over the capability of a single belt. Matt Colie Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner (Diesel Chief...) CS wrote: Engine is a Daewoo L136 and the original alternator, 50A 5000 rpm max continuous, was replaced by a Leece Neville unit, 110A 8000 rpm max cont . To get more amps from the alternator, I reduced the pulley so 8000 alt rpm is now achieved at just over 2300 engine rpm - engien normal max is 2200 rpm. The engine is beneath my feet in a luxemotor barge - so I think the oversped is somewhat superfluous. |
#16
posted to rec.boats.electronics
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Overspeed alarm based on alternator frequency
Colin,
I'm really confused. If you already know so much about alternators, why ask your question to the group in the first place? Glenn has expressed very valid concerns when equiping an engine with an alternator. It appears that you have out engineered yourself. If you need to spin your alternator 8k rpm to get it to perform, you have clearly chosen the wrong alternator. Go out and buy a proper large magnet Leese-Neville industrial grade alternator and spin the thing acording to OEM instructions. Problem solved. Steve "CS" wrote in message ups.com... Glenn Ashmore wrote: Look at the LN curve I've posted - it is not as stated above. Full output is at 5000 alt rpm and it then levels out. That is what I meant about "OP's choice of alternators may not be the best ". That particular alternator has a relatively slow slope up to full power. My engine can deliver up to 20kW at engine idle according to the makers engine manual - more than enough for the 2 - 3 kW taken by the alternator. Torque will also not be an issue with dual belts. Off which end? My Yanmar can handle a lot of torque off the back end but the front crankshaft bearings are not designed to handle a lot of side load. Double belts will stop the slippage but a double pulley extends the center of load further from the bearing increasing the leverage of the side load. Off the front crankshaft and or a PTO shaft. The engine is an 8 litre 6 cyl natural aspirated 160 Hp engine which weights 1000kg and is a proper industrial marine engine as used by fishing vessels - not a bleeding micky mouse Yanmar engine designed for pleasure yachts. I have done a certain amount of research and I am amazed by the complete rubbish being spouted about alternators. |
#17
posted to rec.boats.electronics
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Overspeed alarm based on alternator frequency
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 05:52:24 +0200, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote: Colin, I'm really confused. If you already know so much about alternators, why ask your question to the group in the first place? Glenn has expressed very valid concerns when equiping an engine with an alternator. It appears that you have out engineered yourself. If you need to spin your alternator 8k rpm to get it to perform, you have clearly chosen the wrong alternator. Go out and buy a proper large magnet Leese-Neville industrial grade alternator and spin the thing acording to OEM instructions. Problem solved. Steve Colin did not originally ask about specifying an alternator,he was discussing engine overspeed alarm requirements. The alternator he indicated is a Leece-Neville! I cannot see the problem with his setup! Richard Nb "Pound Eater" Parkend G+S |
#18
posted to rec.boats.electronics
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Overspeed alarm based on alternator frequency
Richard,
Colin's overspeed problem started when he changed the speed of the alternator. He needs to use an alternator that generates the required power at the original alternator speed. He may have a Leece-Neville alternator, but it is not the large magnet variety, if he has to spin it at 8K rpm. Steve "Electricky Dicky" wrote in message ... On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 05:52:24 +0200, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: Colin, I'm really confused. If you already know so much about alternators, why ask your question to the group in the first place? Glenn has expressed very valid concerns when equiping an engine with an alternator. It appears that you have out engineered yourself. If you need to spin your alternator 8k rpm to get it to perform, you have clearly chosen the wrong alternator. Go out and buy a proper large magnet Leese-Neville industrial grade alternator and spin the thing acording to OEM instructions. Problem solved. Steve Colin did not originally ask about specifying an alternator,he was discussing engine overspeed alarm requirements. The alternator he indicated is a Leece-Neville! I cannot see the problem with his setup! Richard Nb "Pound Eater" Parkend G+S |
#19
posted to rec.boats.electronics
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Overspeed alarm based on alternator frequency
Steve Lusardi wrote: Richard, Colin's overspeed problem started when he changed the speed of the alternator. He needs to use an alternator that generates the required power at the original alternator speed. He may have a Leece-Neville alternator, but it is not the large magnet variety, if he has to spin it at 8K rpm. Steve OK - I've just looked at the military alternators and indeed some do generate full power at a lowly 2500/3000 rpm. But they are pretty vast bits of kit and will not readily mount on my engine. The work involved to fit would immense. A small pulley for £10 and disconnect a wire is a simple cost effective option. BTW my 240v AC alternator on the same engine spins up to 14000 rpm quite happily. |
#20
posted to rec.boats.electronics
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Overspeed alarm based on alternator frequency
CS,
They are not just Military, they are industrial as well. They can be found on all big trucks, gererators, water pumps and other stationary diesel applications. I assume you are in England. If so go to www.valkenpower.com Call or send an email to Jack. They are in Holland and the prices are good. Tell him Steve sent you. Steve "CS" wrote in message ups.com... Steve Lusardi wrote: Richard, Colin's overspeed problem started when he changed the speed of the alternator. He needs to use an alternator that generates the required power at the original alternator speed. He may have a Leece-Neville alternator, but it is not the large magnet variety, if he has to spin it at 8K rpm. Steve OK - I've just looked at the military alternators and indeed some do generate full power at a lowly 2500/3000 rpm. But they are pretty vast bits of kit and will not readily mount on my engine. The work involved to fit would immense. A small pulley for £10 and disconnect a wire is a simple cost effective option. BTW my 240v AC alternator on the same engine spins up to 14000 rpm quite happily. |
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