Ted wrote:

snip
Now that we have GPS, why are buoys needed anymore? Aren't you really
interested in where the channel is located and not the location of some buoy
that also happens to be trying to show you where the channel is located?
When did buoys become a destinatiion in and of themselves instead of merely
a source of nautical information guiding us around underwater obstructions?

Ted,

Let me ask, have you ever actually spent any time doing coastal
navigation? And if so, what navigation resources were available to you
and which ones did you use?

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
Ted wrote:

snip
Now that we have GPS, why are buoys needed anymore? Aren't you really
interested in where the channel is located and not the location of some
buoy that also happens to be trying to show you where the channel is
located? When did buoys become a destination in and of themselves instead
of merely a source of nautical information guiding us around underwater
obstructions?

Ted,

Let me ask, have you ever actually spent any time doing coastal
navigation? And if so, what navigation resources were available to you
and which ones did you use?

I used pilotage until GPS came along - a map and compass and dead reckoning
with an occasional reference to a landmark on shore confirmed my position. I
use range lights and my depth sounder to verify my location in the channel.

See figure 13-10 on the following link.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/cgaux/Pub...tcrew/ch13.pdf

I have a directional antenna to track the Coast Guard's medium frequency
radiobeacons but have never needed to use it - never got lost.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/ftp/RADIONAV/rbeacon.txt

One can also track AM radio broadcast stations with this device if needed.

When offshore, if you are able to remember which ocean you are in, then its
not very difficult to know what direction on the compass land can be found.
I measure distance in gallons of fuel. While heading offshore, when one
third of my fuel supply is exhausted then I'm as far out to sea as is
allowed by the skipper (me). After GPS, my map and compass stay in my
emergency kit. They haven't seen the light of day in years. I have only lost
the GPS signal in two places on earth - north of the royal observatory in
Greenwich England and in the harbor west of Naples Italy.

Years ago, before GPS, a friend of mine returning from sea had an unexpected
magnetic source on his boat that affected his compass and took him fifty
miles off course. This "compass failure" almost ran him out of fuel before
he reached shore. I don't put much faith in the cry of the geezers about the
undisputed reliability of the simple magnetic compass and the paper map. I
don't believe that most of them even go boating. They just sit on the
internet and run their mouth.

"Ted" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
Ted wrote:

snip
Now that we have GPS, why are buoys needed anymore? Aren't you really
interested in where the channel is located and not the location of some
buoy that also happens to be trying to show you where the channel is
located? When did buoys become a destination in and of themselves
instead of merely a source of nautical information guiding us around
underwater obstructions?

Ted,

Let me ask, have you ever actually spent any time doing coastal
navigation? And if so, what navigation resources were available to you
and which ones did you use?

I used pilotage until GPS came along - a map and compass and dead
reckoning with an occasional reference to a landmark on shore confirmed my
position. I use range lights and my depth sounder to verify my location in
the channel.

See figure 13-10 on the following link.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/cgaux/Pub...tcrew/ch13.pdf

I have a directional antenna to track the Coast Guard's medium frequency
radiobeacons but have never needed to use it - never got lost.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/ftp/RADIONAV/rbeacon.txt

One can also track AM radio broadcast stations with this device if needed.

When offshore, if you are able to remember which ocean you are in, then
its not very difficult to know what direction on the compass land can be
found. I measure distance in gallons of fuel. While heading offshore,
when one third of my fuel supply is exhausted then I'm as far out to sea
as is allowed by the skipper (me). After GPS, my map and compass stay in
my emergency kit. They haven't seen the light of day in years. I have only
lost the GPS signal in two places on earth - north of the royal
observatory in Greenwich England and in the harbor west of Naples Italy.

Years ago, before GPS, a friend of mine returning from sea had an
unexpected magnetic source on his boat that affected his compass and took
him fifty miles off course. This "compass failure" almost ran him out of
fuel before he reached shore. I don't put much faith in the cry of the
geezers about the undisputed reliability of the simple magnetic compass
and the paper map. I don't believe that most of them even go boating.
They just sit on the internet and run their mouth.


By the way... I have also been in weather bad enough that my paper chart
fell off the table into the 4 inches of salt water on the floor and then
floated away into the engine compartment while my GPS stayed firmly bolted
to the wall in front of the helm. After an experience like that you might
be able to imagine why I don't have much patience for geezers who ignorantly
sing the praises of paper maps as the be-all and end-all in marine
navigation and why I don't believe that most of them have ever been to sea.

Ted wrote:

snip
I don't put much faith in the cry of the
geezers about the undisputed reliability of the simple magnetic compass
and the paper map. I don't believe that most of them even go boating.
They just sit on the internet and run their mouth.


snip
..why I don't have much patience for geezers who ignorantly
sing the praises of paper maps as the be-all and end-all in marine
navigation and why I don't believe that most of them have ever been to sea.

Thanks for the details. You seem a little fixated on older people and
people that use charts. I have nothing against either one of those
groups.

When I go to sea it is usually to deliver someone else's boat and my
focus is to do it without damaging the boat or getting lost. I usually
have at least three frames of reference available for navigation and I
use them all. But I never put my trust in any one of them exclusively.

Coastal Maine is not a good place for relying on one thing, I like the
warm fuzzy feeling I got when I have two or three things telling me that
I probably am where I think I am.

Between the navaids, the chartbook, and the GPS chart plotter, I'm the
only one that has to be right all of the time.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
Ted wrote:

snip
I don't put much faith in the cry of the geezers about the undisputed
reliability of the simple magnetic compass and the paper map. I don't
believe that most of them even go boating. They just sit on the internet
and run their mouth.


snip
..why I don't have much patience for geezers who ignorantly sing the
praises of paper maps as the be-all and end-all in marine navigation and
why I don't believe that most of them have ever been to sea.

Thanks for the details. You seem a little fixated on older people and
people that use charts. I have nothing against either one of those
groups.

When I go to sea it is usually to deliver someone else's boat and my focus
is to do it without damaging the boat or getting lost. I usually have at
least three frames of reference available for navigation and I use them
all. But I never put my trust in any one of them exclusively.

Jack, the subject line says "...why do we use GPS to track buoys??"
Do you use your GPS to navigate to buoys?
With how many of them have you collided?


Coastal Maine is not a good place for relying on one thing, I like the
warm fuzzy feeling I got when I have two or three things telling me that I
probably am where I think I am.

Between the navaids, the chartbook, and the GPS chart plotter, I'm the
only one that has to be right all of the time.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

Ted wrote:

snip
Jack, the subject line says "...why do we use GPS to track buoys??"
Do you use your GPS to navigate to buoys?
With how many of them have you collided?

You changed the subject to read that way, and you asked "Now that we
have GPS, why are buoys needed anymore?" The subject, the rhetorical
question, and the following posts lead me to conclude that you meant
that buoys are unnecessary with GPS. Did I get that wrong?

I have used GPS to navigate to within a reasonable distance of buoys.
If I put a GPS waypoint near a buoy, I offset the waypoint from where
the GPS thinks the buoy is. And if I or the autopilot steer to the
waypoint, I don't expect that to hit the buoy or count on it to miss it.
I use my eyes and/or maybe radar to do that.

I've not hit one. Not yet anyway. I can remember a couple of times of
bad conditions and equipment breakdown or uncertainty when I would have
been glad for a very near miss on one though. Just to acquire it
visually, read its markings, and get that warm fuzzy feeling again.

I'm one of the old geezers that is looking at charts too. I've not kept
a pure DR plot on paper in a long time but would do it if was the only
way I could get a warm fuzzy feeling.

To answer your question, "..why are buoys needed anymore?" I'd say they
they great for inducing warm fuzzy feelings in the hearts and minds of
those of us who consider it unwise to put all our eggs in one basket.
Hey! That's almost an Easter joke.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
Ted wrote:

I don't put much faith in the cry of the geezers about the undisputed
reliability of the simple magnetic compass and the paper map. I don't
believe that most of them even go boating. They just sit on the internet
and run their mouth.

..why I don't have much patience for geezers who ignorantly sing the
praises of paper maps as the be-all and end-all in marine navigation and
why I don't believe that most of them have ever been to sea.

You seem a little fixated on older people and people that use charts.

You haven't been paying attention. I'm a little impatient with geezers who
lecture the maritime world about how they believe that paper maps are the
end-all and be-all of navigation. I have listened to them rant and fuss
over the demise of paper maps for over ten years and its getting old. I use
paper maps myself but never feel the need to lecture the world about paper
maps are the greatest thing that ever will be. I have not yet seen a young
person behaving like a geezer. Its always an older person who has fallen
behind the times and feels threatened by that fact. Its also very often an
overweight older person who is no longer participating in the activity he is
lecturing about. It brings new meaning to the old saying: those who can, do,
and those who can't, teach. (or in this case, lecture)

Take notice of the subject line of this thread. Buoys clutter the chart and
provide a dangerous collision hazard on the water. We have put up with this
hazard for years because in the past we needed buoys. With the arrival of
GPS, they should be removed.

http://www.california-car-accident-l...s/pic_boat.jpg

Ted wrote:

snip
Take notice of the subject line of this thread. Buoys clutter the chart and
provide a dangerous collision hazard on the water. We have put up with this
hazard for years because in the past we needed buoys. With the arrival of
GPS, they should be removed.

http://www.california-car-accident-l...s/pic_boat.jpg

Ted,

That's not a buoy, its a daymark.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
Ted wrote:

snip
Take notice of the subject line of this thread. Buoys clutter the chart
and provide a dangerous collision hazard on the water. We have put up
with this hazard for years because in the past we needed buoys. With the
arrival of GPS, they should be removed.

http://www.california-car-accident-l...s/pic_boat.jpg

Ted,

That's not a buoy, its a daymark.

Jack

LOL! Yes, Jack, That's true. Well, its almost true. The Coast Guard also
calls them dayboards.

If I were to give a legalistic response I would have pointed out to you that
I never claimed that the collision object in the photo was a buoy but the
real answer is that I'm using the word "buoy" to mean any and all objects
placed in the water in an attempt to assist in navigation. Whether the
object is a floating buoy or a wooden post driven into the mud or a tower
mounted on a concrete base (or even a simple piece of 3/4" PVC water pipe
stuck into the mud with a rid tip as is common around here) is irrelevant to
this discussion. I use the word buoy because there may be many people
reading this thread who are new to boating and might not know what a daymark
is. Just about everyone in the world knows what a buoy is.

For anyone who wants to know more about navigation marks, here are some
links:

http://www.auxetrain.org/atn2.html#Shapes

http://www.boatwashington.org/navigation_aids.htm

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/LightLists/Ref2005W.pdf

http://www.auxetrain.org/Buoys.html

http://www.auxetrain.org/atons.html

http://www.auxetrain.org/atn3.html

Also see chart number 1

http://www.nga.mil/portal/site/marit...2a7fbd3227a759

http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/chart1/chart1hr.htm