SNIP
If you are offshore in a small boat *assume that you are *not* being
seen, and *be prepared to take effective evasive action regardless of
your percieved right-of-way.

Agreed!!

For that matter assume you're invisible anytime you're out, offshore
or for a day sail.

Matt

wrote in message
...
Not looking behind you would be a serious error in operation of your
boat. You need to stay aware of all 360 degrees.

That was brought home to me many years ago. I was (in UK then) leaving the
Solent by the easterly channel in darkness.
Nice calm night, good visibility, beautiful display of shore lights, so no
problem.
Then I looked behind and to my horror saw a large dark shape with port and
starboard lights both showing with a white masthead light dead centre
between them. In other words a large ship was rapidly overtaking me. I got
out of the channel sharpish and ever since then have never failed to keep an
allround lookout.

Edgar wrote:

wrote in message
...
Not looking behind you would be a serious error in operation of your

boat. You need to stay aware of all 360 degrees.


That was brought home to me many years ago. I was (in UK then) leaving the
Solent by the easterly channel in darkness.
Nice calm night, good visibility, beautiful display of shore lights, so no
problem.
Then I looked behind and to my horror saw a large dark shape with port and
starboard lights both showing with a white masthead light dead centre
between them. In other words a large ship was rapidly overtaking me. I got
out of the channel sharpish and ever since then have never failed to keep an
allround lookout.




That's why I've been more iterested in radar monitors that radar systems
for sailboats. Besides the power drain.



--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

wrote in message
...
: On Sep 18, 7:39 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
: wrote:
: wrote in message
:
:
...
: : If someone has unlimited electrical power, is he likely to keep his
: : Radar on all the time when he is far offshore? Offshore, far from
: : anything else with a functioning radar system, what would prevent
: : someone from detecting a sailboat before a collision. Assume clear
: : weather.
:
: Stupid question, I'm afraid. This is from the 72 COLREGS
:
: INTERNATIONAL-
: Steering and Sailing Rules
: RULE 7
: Risk of Collision
: (a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the
prevailing
: circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists.
If
: there
: is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.
: (b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and
operational,
: including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of
collision
: and
: radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.
:
: In clear language if you have operational radar it must be used when
: underway.
:
: I hope this helps.
:
: Wilbur Hubbard
:
: Wilbur, you are a dumbass. I asked because this did happen. The
: question is why it happened.


Like I explained and you failed to comprehend, it happened because there
wasn't a watch posted as required by the rules. A radar watch should have
been maintained because operational radar was on board. And a visual watch
should have been maintained because it is understood that radar is a
"supplemental" watch *in addition to* and not superceding a visual watch.

: Would someone far offshore turn off his radar if he had unlimited
: power?

Yes, because they are ignorant of the Rules and have a total disregard for
safety at sea.

: What would keep a radar from seeing an approaching sailboat. The
: sailboat had right of way but neither vessel had a lookout.

You just answered you own question. Neither boat had a lookout. If they
aren't maintaining a visual watch as required by the rules what makes you
think they care enough to keep a radar watch?

snip the rambling on and on with the display of ignorance of the real
world of sailing.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Sep 18, 5:33 pm, wrote:
On Sep 18, 7:39 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:



wrote in message

...
: If someone has unlimited electrical power, is he likely to keep his
: Radar on all the time when he is far offshore? Offshore, far from
: anything else with a functioning radar system, what would prevent
: someone from detecting a sailboat before a collision. Assume clear
: weather.

Stupid question, I'm afraid. This is from the 72 COLREGS

INTERNATIONAL-
Steering and Sailing Rules
RULE 7
Risk of Collision
(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing
circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If
there
is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.
(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational,
including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision
and
radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.

In clear language if you have operational radar it must be used when
underway.

I hope this helps.

Wilbur Hubbard

Wilbur, you are a dumbass. I asked because this did happen. The
question is why it happened.
Would someone far offshore turn off his radar if he had unlimited
power?
What would keep a radar from seeing an approaching sailboat. The
sailboat had right of way but neither vessel had a lookout. The boat
with radar may or may not have had it on. Weather was clear and seas
were said to be 4-6'.
Related question, if the person(s) on the radar equipped boat had his
radar on and it gave an indication of a target on a specific bearing
but every time the person looked outside he did not see anything,
would he maybe think his radar was malfunctioning and ignore it
I see from ads that radars have different modes for "offshore",
"nearshore", "harbor". What do these modes do?

IME sail boats are hard to see from some angles due to much of the
reflective bits being down in the boat.
however i would ask how large the boats where?
if a ship is sailing around and has his radar set correctly he ought
to be able to see most boats signatures. Sea clutter can be a problem
but IMO its not to difficult to tune out most clutter. you watch for
the returns that are somewhat constant and use your glasses to
confirm. it is not standard practice to shut down radar when out of
the common sea lanes in fact on really big ships it is foolish, not
only can high end radars read known ships and let you know who it is
but some have a tracking system for up to 140 targets which it assigns
by signal strength and repetition.

I have never missed a sail boat with one of these systems (not saying
it cant happen). fact of the matter is that i have seldom missed even
floating logs and i can tell you that they work like a dream for pack
ice (two other things that tend to get lost in the clutter.)

most of the Modes the radar manufacturer's are touting are power
settings, long, medium or short range. some actually change the
emitter angle to give better returns at these ranges. Sounds to me
that both ends of this accident have fault. there should have been
watches on both boats.

my 2 cents

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
Not looking behind you would be a serious error in operation of your
boat. You need to stay aware of all 360 degrees.

That was brought home to me many years ago. I was (in UK then) leaving the
Solent by the easterly channel in darkness.
Nice calm night, good visibility, beautiful display of shore lights, so no
problem.
Then I looked behind and to my horror saw a large dark shape with port and
starboard lights both showing with a white masthead light dead centre
between them. In other words a large ship was rapidly overtaking me. I got
out of the channel sharpish and ever since then have never failed to keep
an allround lookout.



Didn't have quite the thrilling experience... we were offshore, sailing
south from SF to Cabo (non-stop delivery), out about 80nm or so. Always kept
a watch and during the day saw a large vessel on the horizon behind us and
closing. Sure, we're stand-on. In any case, we made preparation to remove
the jibe preventer to head up from a broad to beam reach just in case.
Didn't like the idea of playing chicken with a 200m tanker. However, after a
few minutes it was clear that she was changing course to avoid us, so we
held our course. They never answered our hails, but we thanked them anyway.
We were on a 48' ketch.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Two meter troll wrote:
On Sep 18, 5:33 pm, wrote:
On Sep 18, 7:39 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:



wrote in message
...
: If someone has unlimited electrical power, is he likely to keep his
: Radar on all the time when he is far offshore? Offshore, far from
: anything else with a functioning radar system, what would prevent
: someone from detecting a sailboat before a collision. Assume clear
: weather.
Stupid question, I'm afraid. This is from the 72 COLREGS
INTERNATIONAL-
Steering and Sailing Rules
RULE 7
Risk of Collision
(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing
circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If
there
is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.
(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational,
including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision
and
radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.
In clear language if you have operational radar it must be used when
underway.
I hope this helps.
Wilbur Hubbard
Wilbur, you are a dumbass. I asked because this did happen. The
question is why it happened.
Would someone far offshore turn off his radar if he had unlimited
power?
What would keep a radar from seeing an approaching sailboat. The
sailboat had right of way but neither vessel had a lookout. The boat
with radar may or may not have had it on. Weather was clear and seas
were said to be 4-6'.
Related question, if the person(s) on the radar equipped boat had his
radar on and it gave an indication of a target on a specific bearing
but every time the person looked outside he did not see anything,
would he maybe think his radar was malfunctioning and ignore it
I see from ads that radars have different modes for "offshore",
"nearshore", "harbor". What do these modes do?

IME sail boats are hard to see from some angles due to much of the
reflective bits being down in the boat.
however i would ask how large the boats where?
if a ship is sailing around and has his radar set correctly he ought
to be able to see most boats signatures. Sea clutter can be a problem
but IMO its not to difficult to tune out most clutter. you watch for
the returns that are somewhat constant and use your glasses to
confirm. it is not standard practice to shut down radar when out of
the common sea lanes in fact on really big ships it is foolish, not
only can high end radars read known ships and let you know who it is
but some have a tracking system for up to 140 targets which it assigns
by signal strength and repetition.

I have never missed a sail boat with one of these systems (not saying
it cant happen). fact of the matter is that i have seldom missed even
floating logs and i can tell you that they work like a dream for pack
ice (two other things that tend to get lost in the clutter.)

most of the Modes the radar manufacturer's are touting are power
settings, long, medium or short range. some actually change the
emitter angle to give better returns at these ranges. Sounds to me
that both ends of this accident have fault. there should have been
watches on both boats.

my 2 cents


Two Meter,

I thought that was a really good reply. I would add a couple of things.

One is that reading a radar display is a bit of art and not all have
either the skill (desire/drive) to acquire.

I have seen radars malfunction and it is not always apparent. I got
severely embarrassed once by missing an aircraft carrier from a C-130.
I had the gain set to not see sea return and the gain drifted off even
further without my knowledge.

I bought a "blipper" or transponder for off shore runs. I don't have
unlimited power but it is "helpful" to a shorthanded sailor to have the
blipper alarm on. For those who may not know a transponder will give
you an alarm and send a large signal to the ship with the radar.

Thanks again.

On 19 Sep 2008 15:30:02 -0500, Dave wrote:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:21:19 -0700 (PDT), said:

Surely the sailboat would give some radar return before the collision
(assuming it is on).

Not at all surely. I recall many occasions on the bridge of a Navy ship when
sailboats were not picked up on radar. And as you know, Navy vessels have
their radar on all the time, and someone monitoring it constantly in CIC.
It's particularly likely the sailboat won't be seen if it doesn't have a
large inboard.

While it may, or may not, apply to western flagged vessels, I have
twice called passing merchant vessels and asked if I was showing a
good return on their radar. In both cases there was a long enough wait
for a response to have allowed them to turn on the radar.

I don't *know* that their sets were off but it certainly appeared so
to me.

Both cases were S.E.A. flagged vessels.

The case in New Zealand of the Korean log carrier running down the
yacht seems to reinforce that premise.



Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

hpeer wrote:
Two meter troll wrote:
On Sep 18, 5:33 pm, wrote:
On Sep 18, 7:39 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:



wrote in message
...

: If someone has unlimited electrical power, is he likely to keep his
: Radar on all the time when he is far offshore? Offshore, far from
: anything else with a functioning radar system, what would prevent
: someone from detecting a sailboat before a collision. Assume clear
: weather.
Stupid question, I'm afraid. This is from the 72 COLREGS
INTERNATIONAL-
Steering and Sailing Rules
RULE 7
Risk of Collision
(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the
prevailing
circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision
exists. If
there
is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.
(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and
operational,
including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of
collision
and
radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected
objects.
In clear language if you have operational radar it must be used when
underway.
I hope this helps.
Wilbur Hubbard
Wilbur, you are a dumbass. I asked because this did happen. The
question is why it happened.
Would someone far offshore turn off his radar if he had unlimited
power?
What would keep a radar from seeing an approaching sailboat. The
sailboat had right of way but neither vessel had a lookout. The boat
with radar may or may not have had it on. Weather was clear and seas
were said to be 4-6'.
Related question, if the person(s) on the radar equipped boat had his
radar on and it gave an indication of a target on a specific bearing
but every time the person looked outside he did not see anything,
would he maybe think his radar was malfunctioning and ignore it
I see from ads that radars have different modes for "offshore",
"nearshore", "harbor". What do these modes do?

IME sail boats are hard to see from some angles due to much of the
reflective bits being down in the boat.
however i would ask how large the boats where?
if a ship is sailing around and has his radar set correctly he ought
to be able to see most boats signatures. Sea clutter can be a problem
but IMO its not to difficult to tune out most clutter. you watch for
the returns that are somewhat constant and use your glasses to
confirm. it is not standard practice to shut down radar when out of
the common sea lanes in fact on really big ships it is foolish, not
only can high end radars read known ships and let you know who it is
but some have a tracking system for up to 140 targets which it assigns
by signal strength and repetition.

I have never missed a sail boat with one of these systems (not saying
it cant happen). fact of the matter is that i have seldom missed even
floating logs and i can tell you that they work like a dream for pack
ice (two other things that tend to get lost in the clutter.)

most of the Modes the radar manufacturer's are touting are power
settings, long, medium or short range. some actually change the
emitter angle to give better returns at these ranges. Sounds to me
that both ends of this accident have fault. there should have been
watches on both boats.

my 2 cents


Two Meter,

I thought that was a really good reply. I would add a couple of things.

One is that reading a radar display is a bit of art and not all have
either the skill (desire/drive) to acquire.

I have seen radars malfunction and it is not always apparent. I got
severely embarrassed once by missing an aircraft carrier from a C-130. I
had the gain set to not see sea return and the gain drifted off even
further without my knowledge.

I bought a "blipper" or transponder for off shore runs. I don't have
unlimited power but it is "helpful" to a shorthanded sailor to have the
blipper alarm on. For those who may not know a transponder will give
you an alarm and send a large signal to the ship with the radar.

Thanks again.
Knowing nothing about radars and transponders could you tell us what
brands are there and how they function. Do they need to be attached to
a radar or standalone and do they respond only to Search and Rescue
radar signals?
Thanks

In article
,
Two meter troll wrote:

some actually change the
emitter angle to give better returns at these ranges.

can you give us a Model Number of a Marine Radar that does the above?

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply