On 2008-06-09 20:35:32 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

3) aged mid-sixties with the mind and body of a 30-year-old

Evidence shows the mind of maybe a 12 year-old.

17) know for a fact that women have no place aboard a well-found cruiser

Further evidence. Sailing/voyaging without a well-found woman may be
many things, the least of which is "alone", but it's not well-found
cruising.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008061019440016807-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-06-09 20:35:32 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

3) aged mid-sixties with the mind and body of a 30-year-old

Evidence shows the mind of maybe a 12 year-old.

17) know for a fact that women have no place aboard a well-found cruiser

Further evidence. Sailing/voyaging without a well-found woman may be many
things, the least of which is "alone", but it's not well-found cruising.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/


Have been checking your site. Nice boat but not too well integrated in the
accommodation. Looks like it's sort of flimsy furniture-wise and I had a
good laugh at the picture of the engine that brags about the access. Looks
pretty cramped in there to me.

Now, if you'd lose the womenfolk perhaps you'd be able to really take
advantage of the boat. If you were a dedicated lone-hander you would modify
the interior so it had two real sea berths, a better galley, a decent chart
table, more storage space for groceries, more water tankage and I sure hope
those aren't opening ports in the v-berth. If so, get rid of them or they
will surely sink your vessel if you ever do any serious off shore voyaging.

And that unbalance rudder is sure to be way too much of a chore, especially
when close-hauled. That keel, I don't think I'd trust it in heavy weather.
It looks to be only about four inches thick where it connects to the hull.
It's got to be way overstressed in that area.

The gel coat is very nice but, then again, that's something women appreciate
more.

The bulkhead repair looks to have been quite a job. Too bad they didn't do
it right in the first place.

You won't find a Coronado 27, for example, with any of the shortcomings I
listed above.

Too bad Capt. Neal took down his world famous mariner website. The
differences in quality between the Tanzer and the Coronado are readily
apparent. The Coronado is an obvious offshore capable yacht while the Tanzer
is a near coastal week-ender. But, to each his own.


Wilbur Hubbard

On 2008-06-10 20:09:11 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/

Have been checking your site. Nice boat but not too well integrated in
the accommodation. Looks like it's sort of flimsy furniture-wise and I
had a good laugh at the picture of the engine that brags about the
access. Looks pretty cramped in there to me.

Was a tough pic to take, but everything aft of the doors is stowage,
tankage or engine. It echoes. You really have to see it to believe how
easy it is to access everything -- without taking anything apart or
removing panels. Morning checks are a 5-minute deal.

If you were a dedicated lone-hander

Don't want to be a lone-hander! That's what started this all.

you would modify the interior so it had two real sea berths

You didn't notice the "coffin berth" to starboard? Quite comfy on
either tack and you're not going to roll out. You also might have
missed how *comfy* the "V" is, with real foot-space for two and 6'8"
length. (I'm more interested the rack almost-always enjoyed.)

, a better galley,

Only used for coffee. In fact, since switched to a portable stove so I
could stay outside.

a decent chart table, more storage space for groceries,

Oh, you didn't notice how much stowage I have for groceries? -- two
deep shelves along most of the perimeter and caverns under all berths.

more water tankage and I sure hope those aren't opening ports in the v-berth.

Nope. Not needed.

And that unbalance rudder is sure to be way too much of a chore, especially
when close-hauled.

It's one-finger steering up through 20+ knots. (NACA 0012, with center
of lift 1" behind the pintles.)

That keel, I don't think I'd trust it in heavy weather. It looks to be
only about four inches thick where it connects to the hull. It's got to
be way overstressed in that area.

What you don't see is the flange above, MUCH wider. That thinness, btw,
improves the water flow right where it counts. You missed that the
keel's not NACA, but sorta slabby tapered.

The bulkhead repair looks to have been quite a job. Too bad they didn't
do it right in the first place.

That was my error in not fixing a persistent leak. Replacement pretty
easy, most of it done single-handed over a weekend. (and I varnished a
bunch of the furniture the same weekend.)

You won't find a Coronado 27, for example, with any of the shortcomings
I listed above.

snicker We saw some when we were doing "the search".

Too bad Capt. Neal took down his world famous mariner website. The
differences in quality between the Tanzer and the Coronado are readily
apparent.

You missed a *number* of points -- not unexpected as they're subtle,
such as the oak beam above the bulkhead and the longitudinal oak beam
above

The Coronado is an obvious offshore capable yacht while the Tanzer is a
near coastal week-ender. But, to each his own.

They're both rated near-coastal, though a couple of Xan's sisters have
done the Med and back on their own keels (one twice) and I am in
occasional contact with two doing some years in the Caribbean.

But coastal's fine for me for the foreseeable future, island-hopping
with a couple of 1-2 day legs between anchorages. I've no interest in
going outside of the east coast and Caribbean for a while, and there
are a bunch of places along that path we want to visit. Why rush,
bypassing all of them?

Now, where Xan will really show the Coronado up is under sail. She
leaves them in her wake without even working hard. In a race, we'd have
to give them 20 seconds a mile.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008061203070616807-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-06-10 20:09:11 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/

Have been checking your site. Nice boat but not too well integrated in
the accommodation. Looks like it's sort of flimsy furniture-wise and I
had a good laugh at the picture of the engine that brags about the
access. Looks pretty cramped in there to me.

Was a tough pic to take, but everything aft of the doors is stowage,
tankage or engine. It echoes. You really have to see it to believe how
easy it is to access everything -- without taking anything apart or
removing panels. Morning checks are a 5-minute deal.

If you were a dedicated lone-hander

Don't want to be a lone-hander! That's what started this all.

you would modify the interior so it had two real sea berths

You didn't notice the "coffin berth" to starboard? Quite comfy on either
tack and you're not going to roll out. You also might have missed how
*comfy* the "V" is, with real foot-space for two and 6'8" length. (I'm
more interested the rack almost-always enjoyed.)

, a better galley,

Only used for coffee. In fact, since switched to a portable stove so I
could stay outside.

a decent chart table, more storage space for groceries,

Oh, you didn't notice how much stowage I have for groceries? -- two deep
shelves along most of the perimeter and caverns under all berths.

more water tankage and I sure hope those aren't opening ports in the
v-berth.

Nope. Not needed.

And that unbalance rudder is sure to be way too much of a chore,
especially
when close-hauled.

It's one-finger steering up through 20+ knots. (NACA 0012, with center of
lift 1" behind the pintles.)

That keel, I don't think I'd trust it in heavy weather. It looks to be
only about four inches thick where it connects to the hull. It's got to
be way overstressed in that area.

What you don't see is the flange above, MUCH wider. That thinness, btw,
improves the water flow right where it counts. You missed that the keel's
not NACA, but sorta slabby tapered.

The bulkhead repair looks to have been quite a job. Too bad they didn't
do it right in the first place.

That was my error in not fixing a persistent leak. Replacement pretty
easy, most of it done single-handed over a weekend. (and I varnished a
bunch of the furniture the same weekend.)

You won't find a Coronado 27, for example, with any of the shortcomings I
listed above.

snicker We saw some when we were doing "the search".

Too bad Capt. Neal took down his world famous mariner website. The
differences in quality between the Tanzer and the Coronado are readily
apparent.

You missed a *number* of points -- not unexpected as they're subtle, such
as the oak beam above the bulkhead and the longitudinal oak beam above

The Coronado is an obvious offshore capable yacht while the Tanzer is a
near coastal week-ender. But, to each his own.

They're both rated near-coastal, though a couple of Xan's sisters have
done the Med and back on their own keels (one twice) and I am in
occasional contact with two doing some years in the Caribbean.

But coastal's fine for me for the foreseeable future, island-hopping with
a couple of 1-2 day legs between anchorages. I've no interest in going
outside of the east coast and Caribbean for a while, and there are a bunch
of places along that path we want to visit. Why rush, bypassing all of
them?

Now, where Xan will really show the Coronado up is under sail. She leaves
them in her wake without even working hard. In a race, we'd have to give
them 20 seconds a mile.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



I like the look of the Tanzer... sort of a flat-top like some of the Cals,
but it has portlights aplenty.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008061203070616807-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-06-10 20:09:11 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/

Have been checking your site. Nice boat but not too well integrated in
the accommodation. Looks like it's sort of flimsy furniture-wise and I
had a good laugh at the picture of the engine that brags about the
access. Looks pretty cramped in there to me.

Was a tough pic to take, but everything aft of the doors is stowage,
tankage or engine. It echoes. You really have to see it to believe how
easy it is to access everything -- without taking anything apart or
removing panels. Morning checks are a 5-minute deal.

If you were a dedicated lone-hander

Don't want to be a lone-hander! That's what started this all.

That tells me you'd rather sail by committee. That's the path to failure -
remember the fate of the erstwhile "Red Cloud" which was abandoned and lost
due to the whinings of a wimp crew.

you would modify the interior so it had two real sea berths

You didn't notice the "coffin berth" to starboard? Quite comfy on either
tack and you're not going to roll out. You also might have missed how
*comfy* the "V" is, with real foot-space for two and 6'8" length. (I'm
more interested the rack almost-always enjoyed.)

I guess I missed the coffin berth. Good that Xan has at least one decent sea
berth because every real off shore sailor know the v-verth is untenable most
of the time as its motion is a bit to brisk for comfort. Real voyagers often
use the v-berth for storing light but bulky items as it is only a viable
berth at anchor.


, a better galley,

Only used for coffee. In fact, since switched to a portable stove so I
could stay outside.

Coffee isn't going to get the job done. You need a real galley where hot
meals can be produced while underway. At least one good hot meal a day is a
necessary thing when voyaging for maintaining strength and moral.


a decent chart table, more storage space for groceries,

Oh, you didn't notice how much stowage I have for groceries? -- two deep
shelves along most of the perimeter and caverns under all berths.

Groceries stored on those so-called deep shelves will all end up on the sole
in a big, dangerous mess when the going gets rough. You'll be lucky to not
be knocked on the head by canned goods and such storing them there. Storage
under the berths is acceptable but I bet you don't have any way to secure
the access boards under the cushions. Few stock boats do. You've got to get
real and make your boat's interior proof from a 360 degree rollover. Every
hatch has to have the ability to be dogged down. Batteries and other heavy
items MUST be strapped securely in place. Anything on shelves needs to be
stowed inside a locker which also must have a latch so it cannot pop open in
a knock down or a roll over.

more water tankage and I sure hope those aren't opening ports in the
v-berth.

Nope. Not needed.

Easy to say now but you'll regret saying it if you very find yourself off
shore and dying of thirst. . .



And that unbalance rudder is sure to be way too much of a chore,
especially
when close-hauled.

It's one-finger steering up through 20+ knots. (NACA 0012, with center of
lift 1" behind the pintles.)

Poppycock! No transom hung rudder is balanced unless they dogleg under the
transome on the lower part. Straight ones like yours all have severe
imbalance problems by their very design. Do you even know what a balanced
rudder is?



That keel, I don't think I'd trust it in heavy weather. It looks to be
only about four inches thick where it connects to the hull. It's got to
be way overstressed in that area.

What you don't see is the flange above, MUCH wider. That thinness, btw,
improves the water flow right where it counts. You missed that the keel's
not NACA, but sorta slabby tapered.

Sorry but thicker above the thin still results in the thin part being the
weakest. Not only that but the thicker part atop the thin concentrates the
forces onto the thin portion. Believe me that is a weakness about which you
should concern yourself. If the keel is not a NACA foil then it is
inefficient compared to the proper NACA foil.


The bulkhead repair looks to have been quite a job. Too bad they didn't
do it right in the first place.

That was my error in not fixing a persistent leak. Replacement pretty
easy, most of it done single-handed over a weekend. (and I varnished a
bunch of the furniture the same weekend.)

Quality boats don't have "persistent leaks!"

You won't find a Coronado 27, for example, with any of the shortcomings I
listed above.

snicker We saw some when we were doing "the search".

Too bad Capt. Neal took down his world famous mariner website. The
differences in quality between the Tanzer and the Coronado are readily
apparent.

You missed a *number* of points -- not unexpected as they're subtle, such
as the oak beam above the bulkhead and the longitudinal oak beam above

Not smart putting all that weight high up like that. And, I couldn't help
but notice the deck about which you swell with pride looks like a layman's
copy of a Morgan Out Island 33 deck. Butt ugly!


The Coronado is an obvious offshore capable yacht while the Tanzer is a
near coastal week-ender. But, to each his own.

They're both rated near-coastal, though a couple of Xan's sisters have
done the Med and back on their own keels (one twice) and I am in
occasional contact with two doing some years in the Caribbean.

But Capt. Neal's blue water Coronado was modified in several ways to make it
a capable blue water voyager. It didn't take much to accomplish the deed.
You'd probably have to spend 20-30 large to make your Xan as seaworthy.


But coastal's fine for me for the foreseeable future, island-hopping with
a couple of 1-2 day legs between anchorages. I've no interest in going
outside of the east coast and Caribbean for a while, and there are a bunch
of places along that path we want to visit. Why rush, bypassing all of
them?

Nothing wrong with short legs but short legs can often throw at you
conditions worse than you'll find further offshore by virtue of shoal water,
currents and seas with very short periods and wavelengths. In other words
even a coastal cruiser needs to be as stout as a blue water yacht. Failure
to understand this fact will land you in trouble one of these days.


Now, where Xan will really show the Coronado up is under sail. She leaves
them in her wake without even working hard. In a race, we'd have to give
them 20 seconds a mile.

Until you run out of water in about three days and until you get famished
trying to survive on coffee and peanut butter and crackers then the more
capable Coronado will sail right by while you weakly shout, "A meal, a hot
meal, a kindgom for a meal and a drink of water!"


Wilbur Hubbard

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008061203070616807-jerelull@maccom...

snipped


But, you conveniently side-stepped the issue of a decent chart table. If
there is one thing that is not arguable it that EVERY cruising or voyaging
boat needs a decent chart table and chart stowage.

It is hard to muster much respect for any so-called sailor who doesn't
demand a dedicated, large and workable chart table with chart stowage
nearby.

Wilbur Hubbard

You won't find a Coronado 27, for example, with any of the shortcomings
I listed above.

snicker We saw some when we were doing "the search".


Yep, been aboard several Coronados of varying sizes including the 27
(and the 45 FWIW).
Basically they were marketed towards guys whose wives didn't like
sailing but could be
persuaded into a "biggest interior for the price point" boat. Build
quality is what you'd expect
for such.



The Coronado is an obvious offshore capable yacht while the Tanzer is a
near coastal week-ender.

??!??
Oh wait, consider the source.


They're both rated near-coastal, though a couple of Xan's sisters have
done the Med and back on their own keels (one twice) and I am in
occasional contact with two doing some years in the Caribbean.


The lift-keel version?


Now, where Xan will really show the Coronado up is under sail. She
leaves them in her wake without even working hard. In a race, we'd have
to give them 20 seconds a mile.


Yeah but you know "real cruisers" don't care about that. What's funny
is the
number of boats that are claimed to be "faster than XYZ" (giving name
or type
of boat widely recognized for performance) on the basis that they
passed one,
once, years ago, when boat XYZ was aground or being sailed by a rookie
or
just loafing along under reduced sail.

A cruiser we know has bragged many times about how his boat is "faster
than
a J-35" because once, several years back, he passed a J-35 that was
sailing under
blade jib alone because there was a crowd of grandkids aboard. Faster,
yep.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Jere Lull" wrote
the mind of maybe a 12 year-old.

[Vox Groucho] ...and I'll bet he was glad to get rid of it.

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:35:32 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

17) know for a fact that women have no place aboard a well-found cruiser

Translation: I'm a wimpy English major who can't find another gay guy
to sail with.



Does that mean you're interested in a berth?

Wilbur Hubbard

In article ,
"Road Rage!" wrote:

That's the impression I get.

Your an Idiot....