"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008061203070616807-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-06-10 20:09:11 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/

Have been checking your site. Nice boat but not too well integrated in
the accommodation. Looks like it's sort of flimsy furniture-wise and I
had a good laugh at the picture of the engine that brags about the
access. Looks pretty cramped in there to me.

Was a tough pic to take, but everything aft of the doors is stowage,
tankage or engine. It echoes. You really have to see it to believe how
easy it is to access everything -- without taking anything apart or
removing panels. Morning checks are a 5-minute deal.

If you were a dedicated lone-hander

Don't want to be a lone-hander! That's what started this all.

That tells me you'd rather sail by committee. That's the path to failure -
remember the fate of the erstwhile "Red Cloud" which was abandoned and lost
due to the whinings of a wimp crew.

you would modify the interior so it had two real sea berths

You didn't notice the "coffin berth" to starboard? Quite comfy on either
tack and you're not going to roll out. You also might have missed how
*comfy* the "V" is, with real foot-space for two and 6'8" length. (I'm
more interested the rack almost-always enjoyed.)

I guess I missed the coffin berth. Good that Xan has at least one decent sea
berth because every real off shore sailor know the v-verth is untenable most
of the time as its motion is a bit to brisk for comfort. Real voyagers often
use the v-berth for storing light but bulky items as it is only a viable
berth at anchor.


, a better galley,

Only used for coffee. In fact, since switched to a portable stove so I
could stay outside.

Coffee isn't going to get the job done. You need a real galley where hot
meals can be produced while underway. At least one good hot meal a day is a
necessary thing when voyaging for maintaining strength and moral.


a decent chart table, more storage space for groceries,

Oh, you didn't notice how much stowage I have for groceries? -- two deep
shelves along most of the perimeter and caverns under all berths.

Groceries stored on those so-called deep shelves will all end up on the sole
in a big, dangerous mess when the going gets rough. You'll be lucky to not
be knocked on the head by canned goods and such storing them there. Storage
under the berths is acceptable but I bet you don't have any way to secure
the access boards under the cushions. Few stock boats do. You've got to get
real and make your boat's interior proof from a 360 degree rollover. Every
hatch has to have the ability to be dogged down. Batteries and other heavy
items MUST be strapped securely in place. Anything on shelves needs to be
stowed inside a locker which also must have a latch so it cannot pop open in
a knock down or a roll over.

more water tankage and I sure hope those aren't opening ports in the
v-berth.

Nope. Not needed.

Easy to say now but you'll regret saying it if you very find yourself off
shore and dying of thirst. . .



And that unbalance rudder is sure to be way too much of a chore,
especially
when close-hauled.

It's one-finger steering up through 20+ knots. (NACA 0012, with center of
lift 1" behind the pintles.)

Poppycock! No transom hung rudder is balanced unless they dogleg under the
transome on the lower part. Straight ones like yours all have severe
imbalance problems by their very design. Do you even know what a balanced
rudder is?



That keel, I don't think I'd trust it in heavy weather. It looks to be
only about four inches thick where it connects to the hull. It's got to
be way overstressed in that area.

What you don't see is the flange above, MUCH wider. That thinness, btw,
improves the water flow right where it counts. You missed that the keel's
not NACA, but sorta slabby tapered.

Sorry but thicker above the thin still results in the thin part being the
weakest. Not only that but the thicker part atop the thin concentrates the
forces onto the thin portion. Believe me that is a weakness about which you
should concern yourself. If the keel is not a NACA foil then it is
inefficient compared to the proper NACA foil.


The bulkhead repair looks to have been quite a job. Too bad they didn't
do it right in the first place.

That was my error in not fixing a persistent leak. Replacement pretty
easy, most of it done single-handed over a weekend. (and I varnished a
bunch of the furniture the same weekend.)

Quality boats don't have "persistent leaks!"

You won't find a Coronado 27, for example, with any of the shortcomings I
listed above.

snicker We saw some when we were doing "the search".

Too bad Capt. Neal took down his world famous mariner website. The
differences in quality between the Tanzer and the Coronado are readily
apparent.

You missed a *number* of points -- not unexpected as they're subtle, such
as the oak beam above the bulkhead and the longitudinal oak beam above

Not smart putting all that weight high up like that. And, I couldn't help
but notice the deck about which you swell with pride looks like a layman's
copy of a Morgan Out Island 33 deck. Butt ugly!


The Coronado is an obvious offshore capable yacht while the Tanzer is a
near coastal week-ender. But, to each his own.

They're both rated near-coastal, though a couple of Xan's sisters have
done the Med and back on their own keels (one twice) and I am in
occasional contact with two doing some years in the Caribbean.

But Capt. Neal's blue water Coronado was modified in several ways to make it
a capable blue water voyager. It didn't take much to accomplish the deed.
You'd probably have to spend 20-30 large to make your Xan as seaworthy.


But coastal's fine for me for the foreseeable future, island-hopping with
a couple of 1-2 day legs between anchorages. I've no interest in going
outside of the east coast and Caribbean for a while, and there are a bunch
of places along that path we want to visit. Why rush, bypassing all of
them?

Nothing wrong with short legs but short legs can often throw at you
conditions worse than you'll find further offshore by virtue of shoal water,
currents and seas with very short periods and wavelengths. In other words
even a coastal cruiser needs to be as stout as a blue water yacht. Failure
to understand this fact will land you in trouble one of these days.


Now, where Xan will really show the Coronado up is under sail. She leaves
them in her wake without even working hard. In a race, we'd have to give
them 20 seconds a mile.

Until you run out of water in about three days and until you get famished
trying to survive on coffee and peanut butter and crackers then the more
capable Coronado will sail right by while you weakly shout, "A meal, a hot
meal, a kindgom for a meal and a drink of water!"


Wilbur Hubbard

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008061203070616807-jerelull@maccom...

snipped


But, you conveniently side-stepped the issue of a decent chart table. If
there is one thing that is not arguable it that EVERY cruising or voyaging
boat needs a decent chart table and chart stowage.

It is hard to muster much respect for any so-called sailor who doesn't
demand a dedicated, large and workable chart table with chart stowage
nearby.

Wilbur Hubbard

You won't find a Coronado 27, for example, with any of the shortcomings
I listed above.

snicker We saw some when we were doing "the search".


Yep, been aboard several Coronados of varying sizes including the 27
(and the 45 FWIW).
Basically they were marketed towards guys whose wives didn't like
sailing but could be
persuaded into a "biggest interior for the price point" boat. Build
quality is what you'd expect
for such.



The Coronado is an obvious offshore capable yacht while the Tanzer is a
near coastal week-ender.

??!??
Oh wait, consider the source.


They're both rated near-coastal, though a couple of Xan's sisters have
done the Med and back on their own keels (one twice) and I am in
occasional contact with two doing some years in the Caribbean.


The lift-keel version?


Now, where Xan will really show the Coronado up is under sail. She
leaves them in her wake without even working hard. In a race, we'd have
to give them 20 seconds a mile.


Yeah but you know "real cruisers" don't care about that. What's funny
is the
number of boats that are claimed to be "faster than XYZ" (giving name
or type
of boat widely recognized for performance) on the basis that they
passed one,
once, years ago, when boat XYZ was aground or being sailed by a rookie
or
just loafing along under reduced sail.

A cruiser we know has bragged many times about how his boat is "faster
than
a J-35" because once, several years back, he passed a J-35 that was
sailing under
blade jib alone because there was a crowd of grandkids aboard. Faster,
yep.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:17:16 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

At least one good hot meal a day is a
necessary thing when voyaging for maintaining strength and moral.

I agree with that, and the only thing that will get it done is a fully
gimbled, one burner, SeaSwing stove. I still have one of the original
models and they are worth their weight in gold on a cold windy night.

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:24:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

It is hard to muster much respect for any so-called sailor who doesn't
demand a dedicated, large and workable chart table with chart stowage
nearby.

And exactly how do you do that on your 27 ft boat?

On 2008-06-12 12:38:30 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

I like the look of the Tanzer... sort of a flat-top like some of the
Cals, but it has portlights aplenty.

Truth be told, it took us a while to appreciate her unconventional beauty.

She was nicknamed "A schoolbus with sails" by another Tanzer owner.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:24:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

It is hard to muster much respect for any so-called sailor who doesn't
demand a dedicated, large and workable chart table with chart stowage
nearby.

And exactly how do you do that on your 27 ft boat?

My 32 foot boat you mean? But perhaps you don't remember my mentor, Capt.
Neal's, chart table that he built and installed. It was really nice and had
chart storage underneath. Looked like something a factory would install.
Practical as hell and could even be used as extra galley space when not
needed as a chart table like at anchor.

Maybe I can find it: Ah, ah. Here it is -
http://www.badongo.com/pic/3768007

Now, does than answer your question. Even a 27-footer can have and must have
a dedicated chart table of sufficient size to make working there practical.
It obviously can be integrated well into the accommodation. But, then again
the Good Capt. Neal was a perfectionist.


Wilbur Hubbard

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008061220593875249-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-06-12 12:38:30 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

I like the look of the Tanzer... sort of a flat-top like some of the
Cals, but it has portlights aplenty.

Truth be told, it took us a while to appreciate her unconventional beauty.

She was nicknamed "A schoolbus with sails" by another Tanzer owner.


More like a wannabe of Morgan Out Island 33.
http://www.yachttraderonline.com/lis...nd-33-89833406

Wilbur Hubbard

Sorry guys, I'm having too much fun.....

On 2008-06-12 13:17:16 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008061203070616807-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-06-10 20:09:11 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

If you were a dedicated lone-hander

Don't want to be a lone-hander! That's what started this all.

That tells me you'd rather sail by committee. That's the path to
failure - remember the fate of the erstwhile "Red Cloud" which was
abandoned and lost due to the whinings of a wimp crew.

Oh, we don't *sail* by committee. My primary "crew" are the autopilot
and tiller tamer. Pat's capable and sometimes stands watch, but her
primary duty is to stay happy. My job is to make the voyage enjoyable,
not some testosterone-poisoned survival exercise.

We do determine the range of possible destinations by committee though.

, a better galley,

Only used for coffee. In fact, since switched to a portable stove so I
could stay outside.

Coffee isn't going to get the job done. You need a real galley where
hot meals can be produced while underway. At least one good hot meal a
day is a necessary thing when voyaging for maintaining strength and
moral.

When our longest legs *might* be two days, it's far less a necessity.
Truth be told, the galley is somewhat under discussion, but it's not a
high priority at this time.

Oh, you didn't notice how much stowage I have for groceries? -- two
deep shelves along most of the perimeter and caverns under all berths.

Groceries stored on those so-called deep shelves will all end up on the
sole in a big, dangerous mess when the going gets rough.

The lower shelves (where we put the few cans we carry) are enclosed.
Top shelves are for light stuff and has a 6" 'fiddle'. Some of our
larger stowage areas don't have but a small access on the side, and
none have a full-length or width board on top. We're good to 90 degrees
as we sit, and I've yet to get past 45 despite some pretty nasty
squalls and stupid moves, once or twice at the same time.

Limiting ourselves to short legs will minimize the sort of insanity you
seem to be expecting. What you describe would telegraph it's existence
well in advance. And if we're a slogging upwind a day out and a storm
develops, we'll get back to where we started quite a bit faster.

I learned a long time ago that if conditions deteriorate, it's best to
turn tail and hide out. If it ain't fun for all, it ain't fun.

more water tankage and I sure hope those aren't opening ports in the v-berth.

Nope. Not needed.

Easy to say now but you'll regret saying it if you very find yourself
off shore and dying of thirst. . .

Sorry, bad snip. More water tankage would be added before we took an
extended trip, low and near the mast. We could add 100 gallons easily.

And that unbalanced rudder is sure to be way too much of a chore,
especially when close-hauled.

It's one-finger steering up through 20+ knots. (NACA 0012, with center
of lift 1" behind the pintles.)

Poppycock! No transom hung rudder is balanced unless they dogleg under
the transome on the lower part. Straight ones like yours all have
severe imbalance problems by their very design. Do you even know what a
balanced rudder is?

Yup! Designed and built that one. IdaSailor produces a near-identical
blade. Really, it's got one-finger balance at all points of sail.

That keel, I don't think I'd trust it in heavy weather. It looks to be
only about four inches thick where it connects to the hull. It's got to
be way overstressed in that area.

What you don't see is the flange above, MUCH wider. That thinness, btw,
improves the water flow right where it counts.

Sorry but thicker above the thin still results in the thin part being
the weakest. Not only that but the thicker part atop the thin
concentrates the forces onto the thin portion.

And the stress that a 4 inch by 3 foot cross section can take is ...? A
quick calc tells me that if anything submits us to that sort of force,
we have far worse things to worry about. The 1+ inches of fiberglass a
bit away from the keel reinforcement will certainly have turned to
powder, and anything once-living would be tomato paste.

Quality boats don't have "persistent leaks!"

All boats have leaks. They get worse over time, particularly when not fixed.

And, I couldn't help but notice the deck about which you swell with
pride looks like a layman's copy of a Morgan Out Island 33 deck. Butt
ugly!

No disagreement, there.

But one thing it gives us is *enormous* reserve buoyancy against a
knock-down. At 90 degrees, the center of mass of the keel is a good 7'
from the center of buoyancy.

But coastal's fine for me for the foreseeable future, island-hopping
with a couple of 1-2 day legs between anchorages. I've no interest in
going outside of the east coast and Caribbean for a while, and there
are a bunch of places along that path we want to visit. Why rush,
bypassing all of them?

Nothing wrong with short legs but short legs can often throw at you
conditions worse than you'll find further offshore by virtue of shoal
water, currents and seas with very short periods and wavelengths.

Excuse me, but that describes our usual cruising area to a "T", so we
are comfortable with that sort of triviality. (Every once in a while
around here, the knotmeter reads higher than the depth ;-)

In most areas I'm talking about, it's no big thing to get out a couple
of miles to deep water, but we could comfortably choose to take the
"shoal" hit to take advantage of the wind shift and lesser current.
Would feel just like home.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On 2008-06-12 17:26:21 -0400, said:

a couple of Xan's sisters have done the Med and back on their own keels
(one twice) and I am in occasional contact with two doing some years in
the Caribbean.

The lift-keel version?

No, you're thinking of her big sister(s) (10.5 and/or 11.5) I'm told
they're a sweet ride, but haven't seen one. The 28 and same-hulled 8.5
are fixed at 4.2', which is fine for where we'd want to go.

Now, where Xan will really show the Coronado up is under sail. She
leaves them in her wake without even working hard. In a race, we'd have
to give them 20 seconds a mile.

Yeah but you know "real cruisers" don't care about that.

Sorry, but I started as a Laser racer and can't break the habit (addiction?).

What's funny is the number of boats that are claimed to be "faster than
XYZ" (giving name or type of boat widely recognized for performance) on
the basis that they passed one, once, years ago, when boat XYZ was
aground or being sailed by a rookie or just loafing along under reduced
sail.

That's why I compared PHRFs.

Truth be told, over 16 years, I know of exactly one 28 that did one
PHRF race, and that with blown-out sails. I expect a good crew with
modern sails could scoop up a bunch of easy silver until they got
re-rated.

I've got a pic on the pages of our knotmeter reading 7.4, nearly a knot
above "hull" speed, but not our top speed that day. For a while, we
were clocking over 8 on various points of sail, but we didn't get pics
because the guy with the camera was verifying the speed on the gps,
saying over and over that it was impossible, had to be mph or kph ;-)
Fun day. [Oh, and he determined that we're reading a bit low.]

Yeah, she's our "ugly duckling", "schoolbus with sails" or "pregnant
guppy", but she treats us well and seems to enjoy our stewardship.

She just considers hull speed a suggestion, not the law. And she's a show-off.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/