In article ,
Dave wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:18:16 -0000, lid (Jonathan Ganz)
said:

Guess you haven't been listening to all of the things the Dems want to
"invest" in. Like throwing more money in the direction of the teachers'
unions.

I don't think that anyone in the Dem party is throwing money at the unions. Perhaps throwing money at teachers,
who are vastly underpaid.

And the teachers aren't "in the direction" of the teachers' unions? Good
point, perhaps. Union folks frequently have their own separate agendas.

No. They're represented by the union for lots of things, but no one advocated giving tax money to the union, which is what you tried to claim.

As to the vastly underpaid matter, I'd say that in many cases they're paid
more than their performance justifies.

Perhaps, but the vast majority are underpaid and do a great job. Sorry you had some bad experiences!

On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:18:16 -0000, lid (Jonathan Ganz)
said:

I don't think that anyone in the Dem party is throwing money at the
unions. Perhaps throwing money at teachers, who are vastly underpaid.

I don't know where you live, but they're paid pretty well in
Philadelphia, never mind what they get in the 'burbs.

My ex was in that system, was paid a bit more than I was (as a
not-underpaid-by-much senior programmer) AND was given time and money
to pursue "professional certifications" that further increased her pay.
Could likely have retired at 50 with both a pension and 403b (a 401k
for teachers), both heavily subsidized, the pension indexed for
inflation.

And Philly isn't known for being particularly effective in the teaching
biz nor for being able to get rid of the truly, hopelessly clueless
"teachers" or "administrators". Too many had insufficient skills to
make it in the real work-world, but held the expectations of
prima-donnas (as is usual in such cases). Oh, the stories I heard....

"Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach."

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Jan 6, 9:25*pm, Jere Lull wrote:

I don't know where you live, but they're paid pretty well in
Philadelphia, never mind what they get in the 'burbs.

"Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach."

Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD


how about some facts...................

I went back to school to get a teaching lisense K-8, self contained
classroom in Oregon. I substute taught for a a year cause the
republicans cut money to the schools. I finaly got a fulltime job
teaching 2nd grade.My first day was August 2001.

My take home after taxes, healthcare ( i paid $500/mo for a ****ty
family of 3 plan , retirement (they paid 1/2), union dues $25
was...............

$1745/mo take home
In my contract I had to work TWO days for free. It was called a
"service day."

After I spent 8 hours in the classroom I spent another 1-2 hours
preparing for the next day. Made for 10 hour days five days a week.
Oh, except on Sunday when I put an additional 2-3 hours in getting
ready for the week.

I lasted two years. Never worked so hard for so little in my life.

Another though............................................ ..
you have blue collar, white collar, and pink collar
jobs.................... The fact still remans that women make $0.72 -
$0.78 to a mans dollar. Why : to quote james Brown. "its a mans
world!"

Free market my ass. Woman could be a nurse , secratary or teacher. So
why do nurses get $25-45/ hr with sign on bonus of $5-10K and teachers
get 30-35K to start? Cause nursing doesnt have a bunch of Republikans
mandating ****ty wages from the state legislature. Nurses work at a
for-proffit business. Teachers have to beg a repubican for money.
Nurses dont. they just go to a better paying hospital. teachers cant
do that when the republicans have created a state wide controlled
industry. Remember.... keep big goventment off our back. well we got
it in Oregon. 10 years ago we had 500 state troopers. We got less than
200 now. that will keep traffic meth off our interstate
freeways....not!

Yep, $1745/month sure is a lot of money for a family of three.
Bob

On 2008-01-07 01:01:32 -0500, Bob said:

I finaly got a fulltime job teaching 2nd grade.My first day was August 2001.

My take home after taxes, healthcare ( i paid $500/mo for a ****ty
family of 3 plan , retirement (they paid 1/2), union dues $25
was...............

$1745/mo take home

And I started at $9 an hour --gross, with no benefits-- as a
programmer, admittedly a few years earlier. In any new career, you
often start at the bottom and pay your dues....

Main problem I see at the level you're talking about is that there has
historically been a glut of teachers who are willing to start work for
those low wages. Of late, there have been fewer so the legislatures
loosened the requirements to keep the labor force cheap.

Oh, and my current wife taught for 20+ years at the university level
before moving down. We eventually decided that the price of re-entry
here just wasn't worth it, as the most she could make as an adjunct was
20k.

Teachers have to beg a repubican for money. Nurses dont. they just go
to a better paying hospital. teachers cant do that when the republicans
have created a state wide controlled industry.

Must be different out there, as teachers regularly transfer to make
more around here. The state has very little control over individual
districts unless the legislature passes a bill specific to a district,
and then it's time-limited.

Those willing and able to put up with the first years have a pretty sweet deal.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Jan 6, 10:48*pm, WaIIy wrote:

Yep, $1745/month sure is a lot of money for a family of three.
Bob

Hmmm, the middle school librarian here makes $80K a year and retires at
90% salary.

Christ, thats good wages! Must have a stron union and some dems
hidding in the bushes. Or maybe the people in Phily value a good
education for their kids, no?


Anyway, if teaching is such a bad job, why did you go into it?- Hide quoted text -

I didnt say it was a bad job. I really enjoyed it but just didnt like
working my ass off for peanuts. Got to be practical bout this.

Why did I go into it???? I enjoy kids, I have some warped since of
civic service. You know, its not what your country can do for you its
what you bla bla bal. I belive in DOING somthign to make our country a
better place. Others just want to bitch, sit on their ass, and make
the government budget smaller and call it their contribution to our
country.

Heck, I still might be a teacher if it payed 80K plus perks.

What really burns my ass is when I read all this public school and
teacher bashing from people who most likley have never spent more than
a 1/2 hour in a school since they were 18 years old.......... and they
have kids! They listen to Limbaug and start to parrot. And
LImbaug..... whats his claim to fame???? Highschool education (self
admitted poor student), drug addicted, failed marrages, no kids, cant
even controll his weight. And he is an expert on public
education !???!?!?!
I bet that fat ass hasnt watched a teacher at work since he was
bullied in highschool. And he is an epert on public education?

Bob

On Jan 6, 10:48*pm, WaIIy wrote:

Uhhh, you get four months off a year.


I wish..............

Try this. I had a 195 day contract.
The typical joe works 5days/week/year.
52 x 5 = 260 days


260 joe blow - 195 teacher = teachers get 65 days off more than joe
blow.
Okay in Oregon a teacher is REQUIRED to get a master degree with in
five years and we are suppose to get that when?????? So the teacher
spends all that time....... "four months off" which is actually only
65 days less than a 40 hr/week burger flipper, scrambling for classes.
O, no university in your back yard. Thats okay you can dive a few
hudnerd miles a week or abandon your family to live in a dorm and if
your really lucky the school district MIGHT pay for 50% of the cost.

I say, You get what you pay for.
Why should anybody be a teacher when ya get **** for pay and have to
listen to all the republican **** in the press.
Bob



---------

On Jan 6, 10:48 pm, WaIIy wrote:

Another though............................................ ..
you have blue collar, white collar, and pink collar
jobs.................... The fact still remans that women make $0.72 -
$0.78 to a mans dollar. Why : to quote james Brown. "its a mans
world!"


Not true for the same job. That's a fallacy.

Sorry, but go talk to the US Bureau of Labor and Statistics. Unless
you believe the dems are so powerful they been dopin the stats for the
last 30 years. Just another fallacious argument by Limbaugh. Teachers
are a great example. Wage surveys say given everything the same a male
elementary teacher makes more than a woman elementary teacher. Why....?
That is where the problems start; interpreting the findings. Lots at
play here. However, I got a an "incentive" step raise cause males in
lower elementary are needed." Guess I had the right equipment to do
the job. Wonder what that cute 24 year old girl thought when I got
more bucks for the same job just cause I had a dick.

Getting people to believe the crap Limbaugh (GOP) says is a pretty
simply rhetorical strategy. Just look up and say, the sky is purple.
When enough people say the sky is purple its true....uh, sorta.

If you say something loud enough and long enough a voter will believe
anything.

Another good example is Environmentalist. An environmentalist is not a
wako tree hugging baby dipper doper commie. But lots of republicans
want you to believe that. I wonder why??

Another great way to get change (persuasion) is using inductive
reasoning. That is, "you can get a person to swallow an elephant if
you feed it to him one bite at a time."
Bob

On Jan 7, 7:31*am, Dave wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 04:38:21 -0000, (Jonathan Ganz)
said:

Perhaps, but the vast majority are underpaid and do a great job. Sorry you had some bad experiences!

On the contrary, my own experiences have been pretty good. But that's in
large part because I didn't have to put up with a totally inadequate public
school system. Unfortunately, I see the results of the system too often
around me, however.

Ya your right. The public school system does have a hard time doing a
good job..........
Garbage in ..... garbage out......

Ya get a kid that has two parents, family makes a decent wage, has
heath care, no smoking in the house, kid goes to bed with a parent
reading a bed time book and gets 8-10 hours sleep, has real food to
eat.... hell thoes kids dont need teaching they just need a teacher to
guide thme along to become an independent life long learner.

If public shcools are so ****ty put your kids in a PRIVATE SCHOOL and
then shell out $30-50,000/ year in tuition! YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!
The private sector education guys have it right............ charge an
arm and a leg and if the kid cant speak english or has a single mom
that does meth with one of her boyfriends just kick the kid out.

When I taught 2nd grade I had 28 kids............. 3 were white, one
black, three spoke zero english. I put bilingual kids on each side of
the non english kid to interpret my instructions/lessons. What third
world country was this????? Three hour drive from Portland, OR.

I dare you to volunteer in a public school room. Go be a BOOK BUDDY in
an elementary classroom for 30 min a week. Do it for six weeks. Then
lets talk. Other wise ya just blown **** out your ass.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 04:38:21 -0000, lid (Jonathan Ganz)
said:

Perhaps, but the vast majority are underpaid and do a great job. Sorry you
had some bad experiences!

On the contrary, my own experiences have been pretty good. But that's in
large part because I didn't have to put up with a totally inadequate
public
school system. Unfortunately, I see the results of the system too often
around me, however.


School system doesn't equal teachers in total. There are lots of problems
with the school system. The teachers are generally underpaid and not
typically part of the problem.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:56:23 -0800, "Capt. JG"
said:

School system doesn't equal teachers in total. There are lots of problems
with the school system. The teachers are generally underpaid and not
typically part of the problem.

Hey, I know that refrain: "It's the other guy's fault."


?? Who's the "other guy" in what I wrote?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com